How Do You Heal After Hitting Rock Bottom With Your Mental Health?

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Hello and welcome to Overcome, a mental health podcast.

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I am your host, Travis White.

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This is a place for you to share your mental health stories.

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I am very excited for tonight's guest.

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I'm speaking with Tony Kessel.

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Tony is the author of all of the lyrics, how music helped me heal and find my voice.

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And this music memoir, he built the playlist of his life discussing topics ranging from

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nostalgic impact of music, mental health, coming of age and pop culture.

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Tony, welcome to the show.

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Hey, thanks for having me, Travis.

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pleasures on mine.

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think we've been doing a little bit of talking pre-show and I think we're going to have a

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great conversation.

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Yes, absolutely.

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So without wasting any more time, I'm just going to turn the microphone over to you and

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have you tell the listeners about your journey.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So as you said, I'm the author, it's all in the lyrics, how music helped me heal and find

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my voice.

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So really what happened there, linking music to mental health immediately is all of my

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life I've used music as a drug.

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So been through a lot of different things from going to foster home as a young child to

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legal adoption.

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My parents got divorced and trying to stick through that and what.

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you know, all the things that, you know, a kid faces and trying to find any type of

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identity.

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And I found my identity in music.

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And so back then, so for example, the story I usually tell or quick snapshot is when I

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went to foster home, I was like trying to figure life out.

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And I was sitting in the back seat of my foster dad's 1992 Ford Tempo and we're driving.

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And the window was open as the winds blowing through my hair, Garth Brooks's That Summer

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came on the radio.

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And obviously the lyrics to that song is way, way inappropriate now.

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But like, and it's not what I was feeling, but there's this desperation that is in the

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music and these undertones and the lyrics that made me feel something.

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They made me feel alive.

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They made me feel that hope, despite such a desperate situation, was possible.

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So

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Really what it came down to is, you know, serving the military.

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I'm a member, a full-time member of the New Mexico National Guard.

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So I've been doing that for about six years.

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And all of the mental health stuff in terms of like trying to break the cycle that I

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didn't appreciate and trying to establish an identity.

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And then I went on a deployment, came back and ended up getting a divorce myself.

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And I had a child in that first marriage.

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So it's like the very thing that I hated, I repeated in my life.

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so going through all of those things and just song at a time, basically like what piece of

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music did I use to get through that moment?

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it's not all dark as mental health never is.

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are ups and downs, there are high moments.

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Most of my high moments are in mosh pits, in concerts, or a new discovery of an album

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that, you know.

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reawoke something in me.

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uh yeah, after after everything, as far as, ah you know, my divorce and coming back from

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my deployment and kind of hit the skids and had a really severe bout with mental health

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stuff, to the point where I didn't immediately I have suicide attempts, but I didn't

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immediately seek help.

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And it took like

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my first panic attack before I started getting into that.

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And basically the indicator to me was when I started losing interest in new releases and

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music all together.

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And so really just getting on the other side of that, finally seeking counseling, doing

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what I needed to do to get better and heal and forgive myself and forgive people in my

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past for mistakes that were made.

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And uh really coming to the end of that, I went to a Garth Brooks concert again and

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2017.

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And as I was going to this concert, I was at drill in Roswell, New Mexico, and I was

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driving back to Las Cruces.

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And I was listening to Garth Brooks, and I went on this trip.

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This is nostalgic trip of like, life in the 90s and how things were different.

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And, you know, like I looked back and I was like, man, I didn't even imagine that my life

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would pan out this way.

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I never meant to join the army.

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You know, I have a degree in political science.

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was the first college graduate in my family.

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And so it was like all of these things, you're like, how in the world did all of that,

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that child that felt so helpless listening to Garth Brooks, how did he get here?

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Well, I went to the concert and as you know, he retired in 2000, which kind of forced me

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into other music.

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I moved from Garth to naturally 90s country.

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And when country artists didn't do what Garth did, I started like shifting over radio

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rock, everclear fuel, Matchbox 20, that type of stuff.

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And then I took a hard turn.

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My first rock album was Creed, Creed's Human Clay.

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And so once I got into that, was like point and no return.

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I grew up in a Christian home.

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so Assembly of God, and they were like, music is satanic.

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You're not allowed to listen to it.

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And so for a long time, I was like, no, like stay away.

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Country's OK.

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Rock is bad.

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As I started getting into rock and understanding the lyrics and the darkness and really

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finding the hope, I took a hard turn into like new metal, corn, slipknot, drowning pool,

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system of a down, coal chamber.

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I could go on and on and on.

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Well, as I'm coming back from this concert, I put my iPod on shuffle and I was driving

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back to three hours and my favorite songs were playing and I kind of took the rest of the

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trip.

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I was like, man, this is...

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crazy to think like that little kid who is so optimistic, so happy, so healthy, didn't

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even know how bad my life was to this point where I'm fully aware of how bad things can

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be.

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But to see the healing and the redemption one song at a time, I basically decided to build

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the playlist of my life or the soundtrack of my life one song at a time.

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And I basically just wrote the memoir of my life, built the soundtrack or the playlist on

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various streaming platforms.

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and wrote about everything.

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And really what it comes down to is what you talk about here all the time with your

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podcast is our stories matter.

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They have significance.

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The things that we've been through, the things that we've experienced, they're worth

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sharing.

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And for a long time, I was unwilling to share those stories, largely because I felt like I

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was the only one.

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Like as I walked around the

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the streets of my town or the hallways in my high school.

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I was the only kid in foster home.

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was me and the other guy in my foster home.

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And I just didn't feel like I had a place.

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didn't feel like anyone understood exactly what I felt.

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Well, as I've moved on and started sharing pieces of my story, I'm finding that people

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relate to things a lot more than I would ever admit.

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And it's through having conversations with

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with dudes like you that I'm starting to realize that not only is there healing in me

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hearing what you have to say, there's healing for you in me sharing what I have.

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There's a connection to be like, oh, I'm not alone.

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I don't have to suffer through this.

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If I find safe people to talk to and kind of charge through this and we get to a place

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where mental health recovery is real.

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So it's kind of a once around the world in a nutshell, but

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Um.

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It's super cool.

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Like I think it's cool that you spend that time and built this playlist and wrote a memoir

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out of it.

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Like I would have never thought to do that, but it'd be, I'd be interested to sit and

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think about it on my end to see what songs like popped out, like what would pop up for me

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and be like, okay, well, you know what, what significant role did this song play in my

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life?

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Yeah.

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So, you brought up another point that I want to touch on too is you, in a way, I'm not

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going to say, I'm sure in the exact words you said it, but in a way you said that kind of

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admitting that you have a problem like mental health or whatever is tough to do.

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And it's, I just wanted to acknowledge that because I think that's the first step to

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healing is to admit that you are going through something and not look past it.

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Yes.

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Yeah, very much so.

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You have to hit rock bottom.

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And I talk about all that stuff in this book.

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So specifically, I just admitted, you know, to your listeners that I attempted suicide

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three times in a 48 hour period.

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Believe it or not, that wasn't my rock bottom.

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That wasn't that wasn't even that was like somewhere along the descent.

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And I think you got to get to a place where

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you're willing to throw some of those, some of those shot, like they're not insignificant.

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I'm trying to be very cautious in the words.

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It feels so terrifying to be like, Hey, I need, I need help.

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And being willing to admit that, but still it is freeing in a way.

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And it, becomes a certain point when you hit rock bottom, finally.

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is you have nothing left to lose at that point.

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So let me spin it back on you.

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Because that was in the promo stuff.

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That was kind of the question.

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And that's the discussion, really, I want to start is, like, if you were to build your

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life's playlist, what songs would you put on it?

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And that's kind of what I want people to think is, do you have any examples from your

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perspective?

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Like one song that was like, dude, this was the song.

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And it was there in that moment.

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where people didn't have the words.

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Let's see, I know one song for sure that would go on it.

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I honestly, at this moment, can't tell you why.

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I've just been in love with the song.

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It's like one of those ones that I can listen to.

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It just helps me when I'm having a bad day.

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it's, Chiodos, The War's Best Friends Come Redefined, is that what it is?

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the word best friend become redefined.

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And I think it's because when I first heard that song, it's like, it just resonated with

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me.

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Like it's musically lyrics and everything.

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I'm just like, you know what?

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This is one of my go-to songs when I'm having a hard day, even though it has nothing to do

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with having a hard day.

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It's, I honestly, if I'm thinking about it right, it's more of like a, let's see, I'm

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trying to think of.

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Yeah, it's because Craig Owens writes more about almost like past relationships and that

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type of stuff, that would definitely be on there.

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And then I would say, I don't know what particular, a Garth Brooks song would definitely

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be on there.

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And I'm not just saying that because of you mentioned his name.

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I'm saying that because

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I listen to him a lot and he's there in a lot of my childhood memories, especially with my

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dad.

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And my mom, I would say I would put a Celine Dion song on there.

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My mom was Celine Dion as well, man.

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That's crazy.

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My playlist would be all over the place.

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Yeah, mine is.

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It's crazy.

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Yeah, I think it's really cool that the Garth Brooks song is kind of, it's like to me it's

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almost like that defining song that made you realize that music is a coping mechanism.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's like I said, I mean, you, you pay attention that summer.

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I just told you about being a metalhead and like when I left high school and went to

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college, like I went as a metalhead.

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So no one knew that I listened to nineties country on my deployment.

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Lone star came through and I was a huge Lone star fan.

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You know, I was one of those guys.

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like,

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Garth Brooks is my favorite male artist.

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Mindy McCready is my favorite female artist.

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And Lone Star is my favorite band.

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I segregated so I could still call them all my favorite.

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uh yeah, so I loved Lone Star.

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And Lone Star came through Kuwait on my deployment.

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And I deployed with Tennessee, which is why a lot of these country dudes came out.

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And people were like, how do you know these songs, man?

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They see me at my dad's listen in a slipknot and I'm in the back like, you know, already

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there.

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Like, how do you know the song, Kessel?

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I don't know.

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So.

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I've been through that metal phase too where, or metal emo, whatever, or that's basically

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all I was listening to.

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And I hated country for a long time.

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And then, back in the day, why fiance, who's not my wife, got me to start listening to

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like Luke, Brian and Cole Swindell.

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And, um, I was like, so we went to Luke, Brian concert.

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and he's fantastic live if you ever get chance to see him.

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He's just a good entertainer.

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But I was like, okay, I can do this, I can do this.

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And then from there, I've started getting into more country.

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It's like, I don't want to, I don't listen to the heavy stuff in front of my kids.

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But I do have a question for you.

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So, you know, there's, you know, all sorts of songs and we've talked about all sorts of

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genres and stuff.

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How has the meaning of certain songs changed as you've evolved and healed?

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Yeah, that's a really good question.

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there's certain songs and I'm a huge music fan, love concerts, hang out and like, you

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remember back in the day chat rooms, like I used to hang in music discussion chat rooms on

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Winamax and try to find new albums all the time.

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And like, as you're talking to music fans, like, well, this song, like,

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I went through this tragic thing while this song was playing and I can't listen to it

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anymore.

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For the most part, music, like it's still binding it.

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I still feel it's very teleportive, if you know what I mean.

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It's like anytime I hear that summer, I automatically imagine myself and I get that

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feeling of being a helpless eight-year-old child in the backseat of that vehicle, wind

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blowing through my hair and just being like, man, are you gonna do?

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Like these people don't know you, your parents don't want you.

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Like, what are you going to do?

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That desperation.

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I feel it, but I still love the song.

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it over time, cause that song is about an inappropriate relationship between a farm hand

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and a widowed woman.

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But over time, that song, it like, felt hopeful then there was this desperation, but like

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this moment of connection and unity that I didn't understand back then.

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But now it's like,

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Look at how far you've come.

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Look at that day and then look at today.

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Look at how much certainty you've obtained.

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Look at how much you've healed.

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Look at the connection that you have with your parents, even though you went to foster

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home.

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I think that's some of it.

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And it will always be my favorite song.

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I will never stop liking that ah just because of what it did for me.

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When no one else felt like they were there.

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Garth Brooks was.

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So I got like this, this almost like parasocial relationship with Garth Brooks.

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Like if I ran into him, I'd be like, Hey man, remember like, he's like, no, I don't.

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I've sold over a hundred million albums, man.

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I don't know you, you know?

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And that, I think that was, that's part of it too is like,

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These people, as these people being the artists that I listen to, kind of gave me the

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courage, the whole obnoxiously long subtitle is literal, is find my voice to tell my

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story.

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But also like I'm sitting in my home studio right now.

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like writing and recording music to be, I used to want to be a rock star when I was a kid,

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but now it's more so like, what do I do to give people what has been given to me?

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you know, how do I write about dark times and move that on?

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So really, I think that's the power of music is that you do have the ability to see how

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far you've come and you get to reflect on that moment.

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Some people, like I said, they were like, I can't.

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I was huge into corn.

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eventually I entered into the faith community and became a Christian.

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I gave up all my secular music for a little while because I thought that's what I had to

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do.

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And you would think some one of the darker periods in 2004 like corn, I'd be like, I can't

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listen to them.

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I couldn't immediately because I went through a period of suicidal ideation when I first

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got into college as well.

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And I blamed corn because that's the easiest.

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The scapegoat is to blame the music, right?

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But eventually over time, was like, you know what?

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Like they made me connect.

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They made me understand that there is a darkness.

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And whereas Garth Brooks is like, you know, dream is like a river, you know, like

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everything is super hopeful and everything's awesome.

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Well, you know, corn was like, no, it's not like there's abuse, there's neglect, there's

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pain, there's torment, there's bullying, there's like all this stuff that people refuse to

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talk about.

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And they're just thrusting it on the main stage on MTV and forcing people to look at

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themselves honestly.

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And I think that's how music continues to transform for me specifically is being able to

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look back at that stuff with fondness and realize how far your journey has taken you away

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from that point, that desperate dark point.

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Yeah, and it's crazy to me that there's like the dark music too that you were just talking

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about like, know, Korn has some pretty dark lyrics that how healing that can be too.

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is this like some of the music that I listen to now, like for some reason.

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So I went through a hard time last year.

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I have a seizure disorder.

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Okay.

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And it came back like full force last year.

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Like it's been years since I've had it.

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But I had a cluster of seizures last year.

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Every time this happens, I get really depressed, but I became fairly suicidal.

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I ended up having to call the hotline and, you know, I locked myself in a room and like I

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called the hotline.

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was like, I don't know what to do.

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I had a brother-in-law call me and like just, you know, talk me down, whatever I was going

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through.

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But ever since then, it's like my music took a really dark turn and I listened to some

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really, really, I'd say I almost, it's not that I didn't listen to heavy stuff before, but

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I almost listened to like heavier stuff now, especially when I'm feeling that like rot,

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depression coming on.

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like, you know what?

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I'm going to throw this band on because I know that it's going to have that heaviness that

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I want to hear right now.

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It's going to help me through this.

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Yeah.

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And how are you doing today?

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Are things better?

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Yeah, I have ups and downs.

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It took me a while to get out of my depression mode.

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But I suffer from anxiety too.

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But for me, anxiety has always been something that's always been easier to...

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like push aside because I can recognize that those are just bad thoughts but the for some

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reason depression like when it gets here it sticks a little bit longer but it's been it's

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taken a lot of like therapy and stuff to to come to where I'm at today and I have this

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like this is the reason why I'm doing this is because I went through all that I was like

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you know I have a story to tell and I want people to share their stories

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Yeah.

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And so I feel like every time I talk to somebody, get a free therapy session.

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Yeah, ain't that true, man.

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And thank you for sharing a piece of your story with me.

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That's such a vulnerable piece of your life.

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Yeah, I think it's not always easy to be vulnerable, but I think it's a good thing.

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Because I think some people need to see that side of everyone to be able to stand up and

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say, you know what, I have a story too and I'm not alone.

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Everybody's dealing with shit that they're gone through.

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yeah, absolutely.

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And I think that's where, again, kind of linking it back to music is that.

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I found as I did open up, a lot of people will listen, but you can watch their eyes glaze

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over, especially everyone's been through something.

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Everyone's going through something, but there have been some people that I've interacted

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with over time that as I'm talking, they're like, I can't even relate.

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Like they don't know what it feels like to want to end your life, to take your own life.

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ah

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And you just watch their eyes glass over as you like, you're like, all right, you're not a

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safe place.

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You're not a dangerous person, but you definitely aren't the target audience.

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But music, Garth Brooks had a song, I don't have to wonder, for this album, Sevens.

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And so basically, are you familiar with the song that I'm talking about?

22:10

Yeah.

22:10

Yeah.

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When I was a kid, I was like, oh, this poor dude, he's got to watch his ex-girlfriend get

22:12

married and it's so sad and he's standing on this bridge and he's very sad.

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It wasn't until later when I got into metal that I was like, that dude killed himself at

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the end of that song.

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He threw the ring off the bridge and he's like, I'm gone, it's over.

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The whole angel sing thunder, he ended his life.

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so you're thinking about it and now all of a sudden I'm like, why would anyone ever want

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to do that?

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you know, foster home and, you know, juvenile detention, all the things that I went

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through and the thought never crossed my mind.

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was like, Oh, life's so awesome, you know, but, um, yeah, they will listen to the song.

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They won't necessarily talk for 40 minutes or an hour, two hours to go to the therapy

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session type, but they will listen to a song and be like, that makes me feel something.

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And I don't know if I like it or not.

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And it, it makes them have to

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enter and it's that same vulnerability that you and I are talking about and sharing such a

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tragic or traumatic moment in our lives that makes art what it is, is you need that

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vulnerability, you know, to truly connect with people.

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And that's the part of music.

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Like, I don't like the hokey, like fist pumping, party anthem jams.

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Like, I'm more so like, I like the things to be like, wow, show me a part of your soul.

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Because I need that.

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Yeah.

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You want the deep, more of the connection through whether it's the instruments or the

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lyrics.

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Yeah.

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I'm the same way.

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yeah, we got something in common there.

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But I was just thinking of a side note, it's kind of off topic, something that you made me

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think of just a few minutes ago was I remember like my...

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wife was like why do you like all this heavy stuff?

24:03

This was like a while ago because I feel like some of the heavy stuff now has gotten

24:03

darker than it used to be as far as like the lyrics go because you have a lot of I

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wouldn't necessarily call them Christian hardcore bands because they don't like to go by

24:14

that genre but

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Like you have like Under Elf and The Devil Wears Prada, kind of that John, like those mix

24:20

of bands that Norma Jean could probably be thrown in there.

24:30

Where they used to, you know, they sing kind of in a way about God and like good things in

24:30

life where may not be the case now, but she, I would always say, well, you know, they're

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screaming about God, right?

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And

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She's like, well, you just can't understand them.

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said, well, I can understand them.

24:50

And I said, and you listen to R &B and the pop stuff that, you know, talks about sex and

24:50

drugs.

24:57

And so I feel like I have a higher up than you.

25:01

She's like, no, I don't see it that way.

25:04

But anyways, quirky little side note.

25:07

He's like big three devil wears Prada.

25:11

love they just came out with an album last week and I'm loving it.

25:15

I'm loving it so much.

25:16

Yeah.

25:17

Have you heard flowers?

25:18

yeah, I've listened to it a few times now and it's...

25:22

Yeah, it's getting...

25:25

Yes, it did.

25:26

It did wonders for me.

25:27

Yeah, like it's...

25:28

It was like...

25:29

I listened to that the first time.

25:30

I was like, my gosh, like...

25:33

And I had to go over it again, but it's...

25:36

It's...

25:36

It's like one of their pretty soft songs at the very end.

25:40

Just how like tapers off.

25:41

I was like...

25:44

But...

25:45

And I'm huge Norma Jean fan as well.

25:48

I saw them in Roswell right before I moved up to Albuquerque.

25:51

And there was like 10 people.

25:53

don't, I think they stopped there just because it's Roswell New Mexico with aliens, but

25:53

seriously, 10 people.

25:58

was a Tuesday night.

26:00

Like I was like, this is one of the biggest metal bands in my world.

26:04

And 10 people are here.

26:05

Like, yeah, like unbelievable.

26:08

But yeah.

26:08

Yeah.

26:09

But it's crazy to me because I'm seeing a lot of hate on the Devil Wears Prada band, the

26:09

new album, because they changed their sound.

26:17

But I listened to it and I was like, I actually really like it.

26:20

I think it's pretty phenomenal.

26:22

Yeah, I mean, they've been they fit in the vein of your emo, those obnoxiously long, like

26:22

the song titles have more words than the song lyrics.

26:33

Yeah, those ones like dogs have beards all over their body, like that type of stuff.

26:39

Yeah.

26:40

Yeah.

26:40

Well, I mean, because they they hit it's called the act that is like one of my favorite.

26:47

I had a lot of mental health.

26:49

breakthroughs and breakdowns to that album.

26:52

But they hit this pivot point and then everything after that has slowly started getting a

26:52

little bit more palatable, I guess, so the radio.

27:04

like, Cancer, you want to talk about mental health, Cancer, which was the last song off of

27:04

their last album, was like, you know, he wrote the song, you heard one of his friends die

27:14

and he's like, please let it be cancer.

27:16

Like, don't let it be.

27:18

a drug overdose or suicide?

27:20

Like I'd rather my friend died of cancer.

27:23

Yeah, which is like, I mean, the first time I heard that song, I'm like, this is so out of

27:23

touch.

27:28

Like how in the world would you, can you justify saying that?

27:32

And then I'd listen to it again and I was like, oh yeah, like that's how messed up the

27:32

world is that it's like, man, I'd rather the word, one of the worst diseases known to man,

27:43

the reason that you ended.

27:45

than having to know that maybe I could have reached out to you or I could have, saw your

27:45

decline and I didn't do anything about it.

27:52

Or I did do stuff about it, but I couldn't do enough.

27:56

Like, again, just as soul searching moments that we can have through a song.

28:02

And I don't know the members of Devil Wears Prada.

28:04

Like I've never met them.

28:06

I've never seen them live specifically, but just this deep connection to be like,

28:11

What are we doing?

28:13

How are we moving through our lives?

28:15

Are we doing so with intention?

28:18

Are we truly checking in on the people around us?

28:23

Was kind of the takeaway that I got from cancer.

28:28

But yeah.

28:28

it's, it's, it's, and then you brought up something that's huge to me.

28:32

And I think, well, two things, one being intentional.

28:36

I think it's a huge thing to, you know, be intentional in your everyday life.

28:40

Like do things with a purpose.

28:42

And then two, checking in on our loved ones.

28:45

Like I've told this story before on here, but I'll repeat it always because like I have a

28:45

friend that,

28:53

I found out a couple years ago that he had some suicide attempts and almost lost his life.

28:58

And I was like, dude, like, like, why didn't I know this?

29:02

We kind of lost touch there for a while.

29:04

And he's always been like my concert going buddy.

29:09

But I was like, like, well, how did I not know this?

29:13

And it almost put like I felt bad and almost put like a pressure on me to like, you know.

29:19

to be more involved with those friends that, know, that was close with it one time.

29:26

I mean, we're all in different parts of our lives now, like, and, but like when you can

29:26

like reach out, like, I tried to reach out to this guy at least once or twice a week just

29:37

to see how he's doing.

29:38

Yeah.

29:39

And to that point, this time of year, Halloween all the way to the first of the year, some

29:39

of the worst times from a mental health perspective.

29:50

And a lot of people, one, you're busy.

29:52

Like everyone's busy and they're doing family things and they're going and doing all these

29:52

things.

29:57

But you look at the financial pressure of rising consumerism and needing to buy more more

29:57

and more and And just

30:07

not being able to live within your means or wanting to do more or just this time of year

30:07

and then, you know, supposed to be the happiest time of the year, you know, thanks, I'm

30:16

supposed to be thankful, I'm supposed to be happy.

30:18

And it's really difficult that if you're feeling going through depression or you're

30:18

anxious, you'd like, why I don't have a right because I'm supposed to be thankful.

30:28

Well, you can be going through a crisis and still be thankful, you know, so.

30:34

I mean, anyone listening to the podcast and military community specifically, we as a

30:34

leader just push it out like, check on your soldiers, especially during the holiday

30:44

season, because it's so easy to be lost or left behind in this time because we're so busy.

30:53

But it takes a second.

30:54

We're all doing stuff and it's easy to be like, hey man, we're going to go over, do this

30:54

Christmas hayride thing, just making something up.

31:04

Why don't you come along, man?

31:05

Just tag along.

31:06

And there's just those little fleeting thoughts that you have to be like, hey, I wonder

31:06

how so-and-so is doing.

31:13

Shoot him a text.

31:14

We're talking about stand-up comedians pre-show, right?

31:17

And I'm a huge fan of Josh Johnson.

31:19

He's a Daily Show correspondent.

31:22

He wrote for the Daily Show, and he writes a new hour every night, almost.

31:27

And he had this one set where he was talking about the TikTok trend of...

31:32

dudes calling each other, wishing each other sweet dreams.

31:35

You know the joke I'm talking about?

31:38

Yeah.

31:38

So, so like it's basically this TikTok trend where dudes would call their buddy and they'd

31:38

like, Hey man, just seeing what's up.

31:46

I just wanted to wish you sweet dreams.

31:47

And you watch dudes have different reactions.

31:50

Yeah.

31:50

So some are like, what are you, why are you calling me?

31:52

They get all like defensive.

31:54

Some dudes like on the verge of a breakdown and be like, nobody ever calls and checks in

31:54

on me, man.

31:59

And he jokingly, he was like, what happens?

32:02

What happens if we accidentally prank our way into good mental health?

32:08

Just because it was a TikTok trend, you'd be like, I'm gonna call my bro, wish him sweet

32:08

dreams.

32:13

yeah, yeah, so call your bros and wish him a sweet dreams oh or your sissies.

32:19

We don't have to nail it down.

32:21

was thinking, I was talking to my wife about that and thinking of who I could do it to and

32:21

who would react the best and who would like, like, you know, dude, what are you doing?

32:31

Like, why would you do that?

32:33

I want some, I almost want somebody to, that I think, you know, I want to try to get like

32:33

both reactions.

32:41

I'd want somebody to be like, you know, what are you doing?

32:44

Why are you calling me?

32:45

Stop being weird.

32:46

Yeah.

32:46

And then I'd want a reaction of, you're so sweet, dude, like, thanks for thinking of me.

32:52

Just, I could probably guess who they would be, like, on my contact list.

32:58

But I haven't tried it, so I should do it this week.

33:04

Just to at least one of them.

33:05

I should do it this week.

33:07

Yeah, I jokingly told my soldiers about it and it was like in between, National Guard

33:07

meets one weekend a month and it was one of my part-time soldiers.

33:18

And he was like, sir, I thought about calling you, wishing you sweet dreams.

33:22

I was like, dude, but you didn't.

33:24

You didn't.

33:24

I could have used your call, man.

33:26

So like, not to like guilt or like it's all in jest, but.

33:31

I mean, even thinking the thought and being like, hey man, how often do we really check in

33:31

on each other?

33:37

You know, as men specifically, but as humans, like the thought crosses our mind.

33:44

How difficult is it to be like, yo, thinking about you, man, just hope things are well.

33:48

You'd be surprised.

33:50

You'd be surprised how many people can glean hope from that.

33:55

Speaking of like, you you being a New Mexico National Guard, would you care for, like,

33:55

could I ask you a question about that?

34:08

Just want to make sure you're down for it.

34:10

What have been some of the mental health challenges you've had to navigate in that space?

34:16

Yeah, so I mean, there's, when you talk about mental health, there used to be a stigma

34:16

that people who have mental health issues, it was almost like your mental health and your

34:27

physical health were not connected.

34:30

So like in the army back in the day, when I first joined, lot of time has passed and we're

34:30

getting better.

34:35

It was, it was like you broke your leg, they would, they would put you on a profile and

34:35

they would physical therapy.

34:42

relax physical fitness standards until you got healthy and then slowly work your way back

34:42

in.

34:48

Well, mental health was almost like a, you admit you have a mental health problem.

34:51

It's like, damn, you're out.

34:53

We don't have time to deal with that.

34:54

So like I've watched over the course of my career, that become a little bit more normal.

34:59

So I've received a lot of training through the military.

35:04

I've sought it out through, it started with suicide intervention after my suicide attempts

35:04

and they call it

35:10

ACE-SI, and it's ASCORE, ASS Care Escort.

35:14

And it's like the methodology the military uses to basically get people to safety.

35:20

And as time has passed, I've received more and more.

35:24

became a certified mental health coach through the American Association of Christian

35:24

Counselors, just to kind of take another step back from the traumatic moment of, you know,

35:35

suicide intervention.

35:36

All the way to about two months ago, I attended resiliency training.

35:40

So it's like at the source, it's like, what do do to interact with people on a normal

35:40

basis to build their resilience so that they're more capable of addressing adversity when

35:51

we inevitably face it?

35:53

And so I believe, and this is my belief, I believe that everyone that enters the military

35:53

enters with

36:03

a little bit of a discrepancy in terms of to do what we do, you have to have a coldness

36:03

about it.

36:11

You know, when you talk about, you know, matters of life and death is pretty much in every

36:11

situation.

36:17

And then there's this morbidity that you could be doing, you know, routine convoy and all

36:17

of a sudden people are dead.

36:24

And that hasn't been my experience.

36:26

But I have a lot of veteran bodies who had that that is their their experience.

36:30

And

36:32

There's these moments that you don't know you're going through a point of no return.

36:38

It's like you're doing what you were trained to do and then something happens and a switch

36:38

flips and your innocence can never be restored.

36:46

Once you've lost innocence, it can't be gained again.

36:49

And so some of the naivety that I walked into the military with, I don't want to say it

36:49

was taken from me.

36:57

I do, but I don't.

36:58

I'm cautious to say that it was taken from me because I don't want people to think like,

36:58

the United States Army took that away.

37:03

No, like the evils of the world took it away from me.

37:06

And we subject ourselves to those dangers to keep people safe, to protect liberty and

37:06

freedom.

37:13

And that's, that's what we joined for.

37:17

And so just that aspect of kind of coming into the military, needing

37:24

or meaning some kind of resolution and restoration to begin with.

37:28

I've gotten it, but I've also had moments where it made me realize that maybe I wasn't as

37:28

resilient as I thought it was pre-military.

37:38

so, yeah, it's just, you know, like the example I would share is

37:47

I told you that I specifically, I was a child of divorce and I re I didn't resent my

37:47

parents for getting a divorce, but I never understood it.

37:55

I was like, well, why like marriage is forever.

37:57

And I was a small child.

37:58

I was like marriage is forever.

38:00

Like, why don't you just work through it?

38:01

Like, it's not a big deal.

38:03

Well, as, as, as I deployed, I had a six month old son, which is the first time I went to

38:03

foster home.

38:10

I was six months old.

38:11

And then I came back out and went again later, but that whole, um,

38:17

leaving on a deployment when my son was six months old.

38:19

And I was like, dude, you're like, you're not going to be there for your son.

38:23

And so there was this resentment that I harbored for a year towards the military because I

38:23

was doing what I signed up to do and it's not their fault.

38:33

It's just what you do as a coping mechanism would be like, oh, well, United States Army's

38:33

fault for pulling me away from my family.

38:40

Well, when you store all of your emotions for a year, you don't talk about them.

38:43

You don't feel like you can talk about them, which is on me.

38:47

Um, you get back off of deployment and I had so many mishandled and mismanaged emotions

38:47

that I didn't come back the same.

38:55

And, I'm, I will never be the person I was before my non-combat deployment was non-combat.

39:01

didn't witness death or destruction.

39:03

It's just having that experience pushed me into a place where I couldn't handle my

39:03

emotions.

39:10

And it ultimately drove my divorce.

39:13

Um, you know, so it was like those.

39:16

types of things that, we're getting better at.

39:20

This was 2011, 2012.

39:23

And, you know, I pretty much dedicated the rest of my military career or the remainder

39:23

since then to one, getting healthy, and two, providing those resources and that assistance

39:35

and that support back to making stronger soldiers so that we can inevitably face what we

39:35

have to and then bounce back resiliently from those.

39:45

moments of adversity or trauma, you know.

39:49

Yeah, to me it's crazy that like, you you question your parents divorce when you were

39:49

younger.

39:53

It's like, then you get older and it's like things happen and it's almost like you come to

39:53

more of an understanding of why things might have gone the way that they did to a point.

40:06

So you mentioned, so I know you have at least one kid.

40:09

Do you have any other kids?

40:14

You have five?

40:15

Yeah, so I got remarried.

40:16

My wife had two boys from their first marriage, her first marriage.

40:21

I had the one from my first marriage and then we had two together.

40:25

So.

40:26

are there any songs you hope your children remember

40:29

I got a story for you, my friend.

40:31

So I have one little girl.

40:33

I'm not going to say her first name because, you know, kids protect them.

40:36

But her middle name is Jane.

40:39

So I named her her first name Jane because of stained Zoe Jane.

40:46

When I was when I was in college, was like, wow, what a beautiful tribute from this messed

40:46

up father to his daughter, you know, like Zoe Jane and

40:54

As we were, I only have one daughter.

40:57

So as we were naming her, trying to come up with names, I was like, you can pick whatever

40:57

name you want.

41:02

It has to be two syllables so I can put her name in Zoe Jane when I sing it to her.

41:07

And her middle name has to be Jane.

41:09

It absolutely has to be Jane.

41:11

And my wife's like, yeah, okay, that's a beautiful song.

41:16

ah It's her middle name.

41:17

We don't use middle names, so it's not a big deal.

41:20

And then,

41:21

like a little bit of time passed and I was like, hey, I need to come clean before, you

41:21

know, this goes official, you know, legal on paper.

41:30

Like there's another reason I want her, her middle name to be Jane.

41:33

And my wife's like, you gotta be kidding me.

41:35

You don't have like a girlfriend with that for it.

41:37

And I was like, no, no, no, it's not like that.

41:39

Diary of Jane breaking Benjamin.

41:41

And yeah.

41:42

And I was like, I don't think anybody has the interpretation of the song.

41:46

Cause I've looked it up and no, no.

41:48

No one sees Diary of Jane the way that I do.

41:52

But in my opinion, it's like this, like how disastrous men can be towards the female

41:52

persuasion.

42:00

And so like Diary of Jane was like, hey man, like don't put your daughter in a position

42:00

where you ruin her.

42:08

You know what I mean?

42:09

So there's this like cautionary tale in Diary of Jane in my opinion.

42:13

No lyrical interpretation does that.

42:16

My first son was 10 years, but don't fight it.

42:19

there's lyrics in that song specifically that Jesse Hasek says, tomorrow doesn't hold on

42:19

to yesterday or tomorrow doesn't have to hold on to yesterday.

42:30

And that song had so much significance.

42:35

My son from my first marriage is like, you saw, if he was sitting right here, you'd be

42:35

like, that's your kid.

42:40

He acts like me, he talks with his hands.

42:42

He's big words.

42:43

He's like 14.

42:44

He's like, well, actually, dad, I mean, you're such a dude.

42:48

Yeah, like he's like looking into the mirror and you'd be like, man, this is this is why

42:48

people have a hard time with me sometimes.

42:56

And then my youngest son was born with heart issues.

42:58

And that's that's kind of a part of my mental health journey, And Breaking Benjamin's Dark

42:58

Before Dawn just came out.

43:05

So that whole album was like huge for him.

43:09

But specifically Angels Fall.

43:11

from that album.

43:13

And then as he grew up, he really loves Blue October's Calling You, specifically the

43:13

acoustic version.

43:21

So I would rock him to sleep and play Calling You to him and every night out just like

43:21

that.

43:29

It was just this beautiful moment and he to this day loves that song.

43:33

So my kids are about as obsessed with music as I am because obviously that's all I do.

43:40

That's super cool.

43:42

Like, I love all those stories.

43:44

I'd have to say, so I have three kids.

43:47

My oldest is a girl and I have two boys.

43:51

So ages five down to one.

43:57

And it's a lot of fun in our house right now.

44:01

But I'd say that the one that I think that my daughter will remember me by is Brett Young

44:01

Lady.

44:09

And it's...

44:10

um you know basically the song talks about like how I hope that she'd emulate her mom and

44:10

like the mom my wife will teach her how to be a lady and like you know help her with life

44:24

challenges but I used to sing her to sleep with it and so and then my middle one I don't

44:24

know if there's one in particular but

44:37

It would probably be Nate Smith.

44:43

There's two or three songs that I used to sing to him.

44:46

I can't remember the words, like the names of them right now.

44:52

But my youngest, it's definitely Newfound Glory, Hit or Miss.

44:56

Just because we get really wild with him and dance around with him with that song and he

44:56

absolutely loves it.

45:08

I feel like...

45:10

But they all love music, so I'm happy with that.

45:13

I always joke with my wife that one in every three people are emo.

45:19

Which one of our kids is going to be it?

45:23

Yeah.

45:25

But then my three-year-old boy, he's very emotional himself.

45:32

So I could almost see it being him too.

45:35

Yeah.

45:37

Yeah.

45:38

It's always the middle kid, the misunderstood kid in the middle that no one loves.

45:42

yeah, I was a middle kid, so...

45:44

Yeah, there you go.

45:45

Me too.

45:48

So, I want to go kind of touch base on your, you know, your faith side of things.

45:56

How has faith like helped you heal?

46:00

Yeah, so I've been through two really significant mental health periods in my life.

46:08

The first one was in 2004.

46:10

was like late 2002 all the way through 2004.

46:15

And really my faith is what stopped that first one.

46:21

so it was like, as I got into darker music, like really what it came down to is

46:27

I graduated from high school, I went to college.

46:29

Again, like I told you before, I'm a first generation college student.

46:34

Really all my parents went, but they failed out after a semester, or most of them failed

46:34

out after a semester.

46:41

So the fact that I even hit the second semester of college was like unheard of in my

46:41

family.

46:45

so like I was just knocking goals down, left and right.

46:48

I was getting jobs, I was getting promotions, making more money.

46:52

was getting, you know, like everything that I had.

46:54

my eyes set on, I was obtaining.

46:58

Well, there was one thing and I just felt this void and this is where depression crept

46:58

into my life.

47:03

was like, man, why am I not happy?

47:05

Like I grew up in a small town, so dating was like nearly impossible.

47:10

was legally adopted by a family who was related to half the town.

47:14

So like that took everyone off the market for me.

47:19

And I was not.

47:20

an okay person.

47:21

I don't want people to be like, he had plenty of problems.

47:24

Now I wasn't datable either.

47:25

Like, I want to be clear about that.

47:27

But ah yeah, so like I got to I got to college, I got my first girlfriend, I got this job,

47:27

I got a promotion to supervisor, I started college, was elected to student government, and

47:38

everything I was touching was turning to gold.

47:40

But I still felt this void.

47:42

And I was like, it's got to be, you know, like, it's got to be because I'm not in a band.

47:47

Like, that's gotta be it.

47:48

Like, I grew up in southwest North Dakota.

47:51

So, you can probably vouch as much as I can.

47:54

only guess how small of an area, I've been to North Dakota, my brother-in-law lives there

47:54

and works like oil stuff.

48:08

I've been there, but I honestly cannot remember the...

48:17

the town of it.

48:18

you gave a few I'd probably recognize the name but yes, it's right around that area.

48:24

yeah.

48:25

So my hometown is 80 miles south westish from Williston, but I was born in Williston

48:25

actually.

48:33

So yeah.

48:35

And so I was like, man, if I got into a rock band, if I got into a metal band and I was,

48:35

we joke about emo.

48:41

I hated emos.

48:43

I was, I was a goth kid.

48:44

So the whole South park, like the goth emo thing is real when we're

48:48

They're very true to what they do on South Park.

48:51

very, very real.

48:54

And it's crazy because we have the same experiences, we just do different things with the

48:54

emotion, I guess, which is very relevant to talk about on a mental health podcast.

49:03

It's like, life is let you down and Emo's get sad about it and goth kids like get

49:03

introspective and read Edgar Allen Poe, you know what mean?

49:12

So but I was I consider myself a goth kid listening to corn and I was a fan if I had a

49:12

full finger claw ring.

49:19

with the drama face on it.

49:21

painted my middle fingernails black.

49:23

I dyed my hair black.

49:24

I had a corn shirt with a giant middle finger on it.

49:27

Those hot topic pants, like I'm super skinny.

49:30

can tell I could, the waist of my pants were smaller than the openings of the legs.

49:37

wanted to, like I could seriously put one leg and live in it.

49:40

And then we'd like go to movies and sneak two liter bottles of Mountain Dew in the movie

49:40

theater in our back pocket.

49:46

Like, yeah, so.

49:48

It was like, was like, if I join a band, then I'll finally be happy.

49:53

Well, I could never find, like, there was like two bands and I quickly got ruled out of

49:53

one.

50:00

There's this kid who listened to a lot of Machine Head and I was just like, I love Machine

50:00

Head, but I just can't.

50:07

I couldn't at that time be in that kind of band.

50:10

So I eventually started a band with one of my coworkers.

50:14

It was the Marilyn Manson cover band.

50:16

And we basically rewrote Marilyn Atkinson songs.

50:20

And it was like, no matter what I was doing, I felt like I was like, I should be happy.

50:25

Like I'm obtaining everything.

50:27

There's no reason why I should be feeling what I feel.

50:31

so really I went to a Presbyterian church when I was little.

50:36

And I remembered when I left, North Dakota, 20 below zero plus a wind chill.

50:43

I was like, man, I felt warm.

50:44

Like I felt love.

50:45

I felt something different.

50:47

So I actually was like, maybe if I go to a Bible study, there's this Bible study with this

50:47

teacher who only came once a week.

50:55

And so I was like, he's only here once a week.

50:58

So I can go to his Bible study.

50:59

I can live my life.

51:00

I can just be a sinner the other six days and he'll never know.

51:04

He'll be like, Oh, he's always so like, you know, whatever.

51:07

So I could, I figured I could do what I needed to do.

51:09

Feel good about myself for a little while.

51:11

Never have to commit to anything.

51:13

and everything would be all right.

51:15

Well, this Bible study teacher, it's a really long story.

51:21

I talk about it in the book, but I go to show up for this Bible study and he'd been

51:21

inviting me for about 15 months.

51:30

And every week, almost every week I'd be wearing a corn shirt.

51:34

He's like, hey man, come to Bible study.

51:35

I'm like, I'm not your demographic, dog.

51:37

You really don't want me in your Bible study.

51:39

I'm skeptical.

51:40

I'm pissed off at God.

51:42

He said, no, no, you're perfect.

51:43

I'm like, no, I'm not perfect.

51:45

I'm going to ruin a lot of people.

51:47

And I'm dead serious.

51:48

Like every time I was like, corn shirt, man, like really not wearing like a demon hunter

51:48

death metal shirt here.

51:54

But yeah.

51:56

So he's like, okay, man.

51:58

Like he was not pushy.

51:59

He, he didn't bite.

52:00

I'd say no.

52:01

He'd be like, all right.

52:02

And then we'd eat dinner together and he'd go his way.

52:04

I'd go my way.

52:05

Well, I decided I was like, I'm going to go to the study.

52:07

I show up and no one was there.

52:09

And so I basically made a deal with God.

52:12

And, and when I say like, I gave him an ultimatum, I was like, you have until I get out of

52:12

this building, or I'm walking away forever.

52:19

And honestly, like, I was already going through suicidal ideations.

52:24

I already like was insomnia at night envisioning ways to end my life.

52:29

I honestly believe that that's basically what I was telling God at that point.

52:33

I didn't say it directly, but I was like, Hey, man, if you don't intervene in my life

52:33

before I leave this building, I'm gonna get more serious about the suicide thing.

52:42

And I basically got all the way to the door.

52:45

And as I went to open the door, I was like, you got a second.

52:48

Like, this is a bold move as a human being.

52:51

I was like, you got one second and I'm done.

52:53

Like, and I'm not screwing around.

52:55

It's over.

52:56

Well, as I went to open the door, the Bible study teacher was there and he kind of took me

52:56

out to the side and we did some, like a study.

53:05

And really what it came down to, was like, maybe

53:09

maybe you're built for something bigger, like your sense of purpose.

53:14

Maybe it's this.

53:15

And so, you know, we went to, I went to Passion of the Christ with a friend.

53:19

And after that movie, I just felt so guilty.

53:22

I was like, dude, you're running around living your life this way, doing this, doing that.

53:27

In the end, like, you need to live for something bigger than you.

53:31

You know, you need to figure out, and really what it came down to that first time was

53:31

purpose.

53:37

Um, I'm really skeptical and I'm going to share two things on the back end of that.

53:44

I'm really skeptical to say that becoming a Christian is what got me out of my first

53:44

mental health out.

53:52

And mainly because I, I feel like sometimes the church mishandles mental health stuff as

53:52

well.

53:59

Now they're getting better too, but there's, there's certain things it's like, well, if

53:59

you just become a Christian.

54:05

or go to a church or whatever, put whatever religion in there.

54:09

Well, then your life will, everything is going to be perfect.

54:12

Well, that doesn't trump counseling and that doesn't trump medication if you need it.

54:17

Like that, that is what I did.

54:19

And it worked for me for a minute getting to my second point until it didn't, you know,

54:19

like, so on my deployment, I was leading Christian worship for a contemporary service

54:32

twice a week.

54:33

Like at all, like that was what I did.

54:35

That was the first time I really played music publicly.

54:37

And, you know, I was elbows deep in the church.

54:41

And when I came home is when my suicide, ideation spun up and led into the attempts.

54:48

And I was a practicing and attending member of a church at the time, you know?

54:53

So I feel like that's the other part is like, well, if you're a Christian, you should

54:53

never have issues with this.

55:01

And I believe that the faith community, they don't do it on a purpose, but they alienate

55:01

at times to be like, like, I hate with a passion the phrase, let go, let God.

55:12

It's like in the hierarchy of needs, you can't judge that.

55:18

don't think logically when you're going through periods of trauma.

55:22

You don't think like, Oh, if I go to church, like you're seriously in a place sometimes

55:22

where ending your life makes more sense than waiting it out.

55:31

That's how sick your mind gets.

55:33

So when you think you'd be like, well, maybe if I, and at that point in time, I was

55:33

actively involved in attending a church weekly, praying and trying to get connection with

55:41

God and it wasn't there.

55:42

wasn't connecting.

55:44

And so there was a lot of guilt there too.

55:46

It's like, well, my faith isn't big enough to heal me.

55:50

as I got off my deployment, and I'll share this, my stepmom has passed away and I don't

55:50

say this to blast her.

55:56

Again, assembly of God and she honestly felt like she was helping me, but I was like, Hey

55:56

mom, don't feel okay.

56:04

And she was like, well, you were in the middle East.

56:08

Like, do you think maybe you got possessed by a demon?

56:10

And I was like, no mom, like I'm bummed out and I'm overly anxious.

56:15

And I went to go see a therapist and they said, I'm super like aware of myself more than

56:15

most people that they know.

56:22

And then I'm okay.

56:23

I just like, no one.

56:25

Like I can't find an answer.

56:28

She's like, well, did you pray about it?

56:31

I was like, no, mom, I didn't, I didn't even think that never even occurred to me.

56:35

I mean sarcastic.

56:36

Cause if anybody, if anyone hears my voice, it'd be like, speed, Sarah.

56:41

I was like, no, that never even crossed my mind, mom.

56:43

Like I, but it's, it's all of that stuff that like faith has been huge in my restoration.

56:50

Like I said,

56:51

I became a uh mental health coach through the American Association of Christian

56:51

Counselors.

56:56

But that is one of the things.

56:58

it's one of the tools, faith is one of the tools that you can use once you get past that

56:58

initial moment of absolute unsafety.

57:07

If you encounter someone who is suicidal right now, one of the worst things you can do.

57:12

And I'm saying this as a practicing member of the faith is be like, all right, let's sit

57:12

down and pray about it.

57:18

And no, like if you're going to do that, you still need to take them somewhere.

57:22

You need to get them to a mental health institution, an emergency room.

57:25

You need to get them on the suicide hotline.

57:27

You need to get them somewhere where they are safe again, separate them from whatever

57:27

methodology they may be considering.

57:35

There's a lot of things to it.

57:37

Faith is a tool along the way, and it's a supplement.

57:42

Now the faith community would assassinate me for saying that they're like nothing is more

57:42

important than God.

57:48

Okay, but also You know rational thought and seeing therapists and there that's a thing

57:48

that is a thing people like God gives people training to get To do this and that is their

58:01

life mission is to help heal people in that way.

58:04

So Go to a therapist

58:07

You know, go to a doctor, get prescribed medication if you need them, take your medicine

58:07

as you're prescribed.

58:12

If it's not working, communicate with your doctor.

58:14

All of those things are things that I've heard in various ways in the faith community that

58:14

I didn't really set well with me.

58:23

It's like, oh, well, I don't need medicine because my God's bigger than my, no, you need

58:23

medicine.

58:29

You need medicine.

58:30

Take it.

58:31

You know, sorry.

58:33

I went on a tirade there for a minute, but.

58:35

totally good.

58:36

And I can relate to all that because I grew up in Utah.

58:40

And so I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.

58:45

And I can fully relate on how, you know, things have been like mental health has been

58:45

handled and that type of stuff.

58:54

And it has always been talked about.

58:57

I think overall people are starting to talk about it a little bit more within the

59:02

church and but it's like and I think this goes for all religions though I think a lot of

59:02

religions have kind of struggled with like speaking up about it but it's like even even

59:14

though you're a member of you whatever religion it is that you're part of like you you

59:14

Christian or whatever it's it's you have your beliefs but that doesn't mean that just

59:26

because you believe in God doesn't mean that you're not going to struggle like

59:30

We, as far as I know, my belief is that we were sent here to struggle.

59:35

Like, my struggle is going to be different than yours.

59:38

And it's, I think it's how we move past it, how we decide to, the choices that we make to

59:38

get through our struggles and how we move forward with it.

59:46

And I actually came up with a faith acronym, an acronym regarding the word faith.

59:53

Okay.

59:53

And I think it goes sides with kind of what right what you were saying.

59:57

So F is for foundation You have to build a strong foundation within something that's

59:57

higher than you and I mean for me that's God but for you know Somebody else I don't think

1:00:09

it necessarily has to A is for attitude you go through life with the right attitude

1:00:09

because it's like, know, I think I think of myself and times when I've had a bad attitude

1:00:21

towards

1:00:22

life in general, like that doesn't get me anywhere.

1:00:25

um I is integrity.

1:00:28

Just live with life being honest, like be true to yourself and true to others.

1:00:33

T is for trust.

1:00:35

You need to trust yourself and the ability to make decisions and you need to build a

1:00:35

community of people that you trust to help you through.

1:00:44

And then H is humility.

1:00:46

Just be humble.

1:00:49

That is, that's awesome.

1:00:50

That's a, that is, that's a really good, basically like way forward and remind it.

1:00:58

Yeah.

1:00:59

And so to that, to that effect, we actually, my wife and I, cause my wife is a combat vet

1:00:59

and she also served on a couple of deployments.

1:01:10

She's a veteran herself and we ran a mental health support group.

1:01:15

There's a peer, a mental health peer support group.

1:01:18

So we were not licensed.

1:01:20

We are not therapists.

1:01:21

We're just people who care and we have a story.

1:01:23

And so we sat when we lived in Roswell, we did this and it was, it was housed in a church.

1:01:27

It was a faith based type program.

1:01:29

But like in, in some of the studies since then, you try to rectify, you'd like, well, why

1:01:29

am I so broken?

1:01:37

You know, you start thinking and trying to justify it from a faith perspective.

1:01:41

garden of Gethsemane was huge for me.

1:01:44

because I was clinically diagnosed with anxiety and I'm like, well, I'm broken and

1:01:44

obviously I'm in a fallen world, I'm this because of this or whatever.

1:01:54

And when you pray and it doesn't go away, you're like, I'm not something about, like you

1:01:54

start to feel fundamentally busted even as you're in therapy and trying to figure things

1:02:03

out.

1:02:05

But one of the most reassuring things to me was reading through the The Gardening of

1:02:05

Seminary.

1:02:11

So when,

1:02:12

Now there's arguments, did he actually sweat blood or was he sweating so profusely it was

1:02:12

dripping white blood?

1:02:19

I don't know.

1:02:19

I'm not going to get into that, but in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus had a panic attack.

1:02:26

like whatever you believe, most people believe at a minimum, he's a great teacher, really

1:02:26

good teacher, all the way up to savior of the universe.

1:02:36

Most people agree that he's a pretty good dude, Pretty

1:02:41

holy and righteous dude.

1:02:43

He had a panic attack.

1:02:44

Like when you look at it and he's like trying to pray and he keeps sending his disciples

1:02:44

away and they fall asleep because that's what they're doing.

1:02:52

Like he's seriously having a breakdown.

1:02:54

And if you look at and read that account and be like, man, if he wasn't immune from

1:02:54

anxiety and panic attacks, then I am not.

1:03:05

Like that was so reassuring to me to be like, if,

1:03:11

He was not always okay with the condition of the world that we live in, then maybe none of

1:03:11

us really ever will be, if that makes any sense.

1:03:20

So did you experience, and I'm not trying to dime out any particular faith community or

1:03:20

whatever, but in terms of like your transparency about your mental health issues, have you

1:03:32

found that it's okay or has been acceptable in faith communities or?

1:03:38

Has it gotten better over time or is it, like, what's your experience with that?

1:03:44

I haven't really like dived into too much.

1:03:47

I just know like with my personal experience, like it was a, so my mental health like

1:03:47

struggles that, you know, know about like started back in 2009 when I started having

1:03:59

medical problems and I could probably date small anxiety issues before that, but like I

1:03:59

don't, they, nothing really big like stands out.

1:04:09

But I think it's more the way that it was talked about and members of the community would

1:04:09

be, it'd be like almost frowned upon of going through stuff.

1:04:20

So I feel like it took me a long time to actually admit that I was struggling mentally.

1:04:28

The medical condition was okay.

1:04:31

But mentally, it took me a long time because I was so afraid of

1:04:35

people passing judgment.

1:04:36

But now I feel like there's been more open discussion about it.

1:04:40

That it's, they're making it a church overall is making it a, know, a wider non-think that

1:04:40

this is a problem that we're going through.

1:04:55

Yeah, and it's...

1:04:55

I would say the experience has been about neutral.

1:04:58

I wasn't like, yeah.

1:05:01

I mean, I think overall most people within my community probably would not know that I

1:05:01

have mental health problems.

1:05:10

And it's not that I'm hiding it from them.

1:05:12

It's just the neighborhood I'm in right now, it's like, don't know.

1:05:15

I know people, but I don't have like...

1:05:18

I'm not close to anybody, if that makes sense.

1:05:21

Yeah.

1:05:24

Yeah, and I think that's why it's so difficult for males specifically, again, to segregate

1:05:24

any portion of the audience, is, you know, like, I want to be a good dad.

1:05:35

I love my kids.

1:05:37

I really don't care.

1:05:38

I go to work and I come home and I want to be with my kids.

1:05:41

That's what I value as a child of divorce, that child lives with me now for my first

1:05:41

marriage.

1:05:50

you know, like a part-time father, you know, at times it's like, nothing else matters to

1:05:50

me.

1:05:56

But in that, you kind of isolate yourself.

1:05:58

You can't share those types of issues with your kids.

1:06:03

And in that way, we as dudes trying to dedicate and invest in what matters the most to us,

1:06:03

kind of isolate ourselves to a point where we're not.

1:06:18

We don't have the community to lean on because we've isolated ourselves.

1:06:24

And every one of my buddies is doing the same thing that I'm doing.

1:06:27

it's so admirable to want to be a good father, to be a good husband, to be good in the

1:06:27

home and helpful around the house.

1:06:35

But in that, you cut yourself off from viable part of the community.

1:06:40

And I think that's part of the struggle with males in society with mental health is that

1:06:40

we...

1:06:48

when we need help, we're like, who do I even call now?

1:06:51

You know what I mean?

1:06:52

Like, yeah.

1:06:55

And I think that I want to add on to that because I think that like, you know, because I

1:06:55

strive for the same thing as being the best dad.

1:07:02

And I want to say that like, I'm not always perfect.

1:07:05

And I think that my kids have been taught me more about unconditional love and infinite

1:07:05

love than anybody else.

1:07:16

Because like, I can mess up like really bad like.

1:07:20

whether it's, you know, they do something and like yell at them for something.

1:07:25

It's like they turn around and they're the most forgiving human beings.

1:07:31

Especially when they're at this young age and I know they're impressionable and it's like,

1:07:31

but all I can do is like, you know, make sure that I'm saying sorry.

1:07:41

And when they forgive me, they're so quick to move on and they still love me.

1:07:46

But.

1:07:47

We have to be careful, I think, with the burnout side of things because I think it's

1:07:47

important that while we strive to be good fathers and husbands and all that, I think that

1:07:58

it's important that we find every once in while our own thing to go do, just to get away

1:07:58

and do what we love.

1:08:07

I had to...

1:08:10

I feel like since I started having kids, it's like I started losing bits and pieces of

1:08:10

myself.

1:08:16

I hadn't been to a show for a long time.

1:08:20

I was always still listening to music, but live music is my thing.

1:08:24

It's my jam.

1:08:25

And then I started having to find more hobbies.

1:08:28

I've dived a little bit into photography.

1:08:33

I started this podcast as a...

1:08:37

Right now it's...

1:08:39

I don't want to say necessarily hobby because I think it's the right word, but it's

1:08:39

something that I love doing.

1:08:45

I love hearing like everybody's stories.

1:08:47

Like I absolutely love it.

1:08:48

It's like something that I can do to still identify with like who I am and not just be

1:08:48

like not that I'm I'm not trying to put fatherhood or being a husband like down.

1:08:58

I'm just saying like we need our own stuff.

1:09:01

Yeah.

1:09:03

Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, that man that resonated a lot.

1:09:10

Wait, wait, one day you'll, I've taken kids to concerts.

1:09:14

So I took, uh, one of my step sons to Demon Hunter in Lubbock, Texas.

1:09:18

was an amazing experience.

1:09:20

Um, yeah.

1:09:21

And so like him and I didn't, don't always connect.

1:09:26

And so was like, yo, you're going to this concert.

1:09:29

We're, we're going to the pit.

1:09:30

And he's like, I don't really want to.

1:09:32

I'm like, now you're going.

1:09:33

And then we took him, same Lubbock, Texas.

1:09:36

took the whole family went to a Blue October concert in Lubbock and we took some of the

1:09:36

kids as friends.

1:09:41

And one day they'll be your concert buddies.

1:09:44

I'm here to reassure you.

1:09:45

You'll have little pit monsters breaking it up.

1:09:49

So.

1:09:50

I'm hoping so.

1:09:53

I'll have to be little bit choosy with what I take them to just because I have to respect

1:09:53

my wife and that she doesn't want to listen to screaming music.

1:10:00

I said, what if they choose that?

1:10:03

It's more of a calling in life.

1:10:06

And she's just like, yeah, not a chance.

1:10:10

I said, you don't know.

1:10:10

You don't know.

1:10:12

Yeah, you don't.

1:10:13

And why would you deprive them of a larger portion of who they are?

1:10:18

No, so at that Demon Hunter concert, I'm not right on the rail usually when I go to

1:10:18

concerts.

1:10:25

If you've seen a metal show and you have, you know there's like the circle pit and then

1:10:25

there's that strip and there's always on the rail it's like 14, 15 year old girls who

1:10:36

think that this band's their favorite band and they only know their hit song.

1:10:40

That's the people who are right on the rail typically.

1:10:42

And then you got those like loyal dudes that are like right around.

1:10:46

We're not in the circle pit, but we're up on the front and we want to be up on the front

1:10:46

because we play an instrument we want to see how they're playing the song.

1:10:53

That's me.

1:10:53

That's my crowd.

1:10:55

And then you got the circle pit, but I'm always like, my back is the front of the circle

1:10:55

pit.

1:11:00

So I have like people bouncing off my back all night.

1:11:03

And I do that to protect the 15 year old girls on the rail.

1:11:06

Cause if anybody hurts them, they're done.

1:11:08

You know, like I will destroy these guys.

1:11:11

So, but yeah, it's a.

1:11:16

those types of moments that you get to share with your kids, it's like pretty good.

1:11:23

Yeah, I'm the guy that like, I don't stand, I'm kind of a little bit away from the circle

1:11:23

pit.

1:11:29

I wouldn't say like I'm way too far away from it, but if I'm down there, I'll be a little

1:11:29

bit away and just kind of back off to the side just so can see and just enjoy the music.

1:11:40

I don't, I can't do the pits anymore because one of my last times I had a bad experience

1:11:40

of where I fell over and almost got trappled.

1:11:49

And the, the...

1:11:52

group of kids that were like by me they didn't try to help me out or anything so it was

1:11:52

like it was pretty scary.

1:12:01

Pretty scary.

1:12:02

that's the thing about the metal community is a lot of the time they do.

1:12:05

so like, anybody's not familiar with metal.

1:12:08

Like what you just said is huge.

1:12:10

Cause you were like, they didn't even try to help me.

1:12:12

You'd be like, well, why would they?

1:12:13

You guys are evil heathens.

1:12:16

No, like we're very loving.

1:12:17

Like we're bouncing off each other.

1:12:19

But if somebody like the singer will stop the concert, if somebody falls, like it is.

1:12:26

Like I've heard stories of people breaking their legs and getting like, they will stop the

1:12:26

concert and EMT will come in and, know, just stretch her and get them out and they'll

1:12:35

like, is everybody good?

1:12:36

All right, open the pit back up, you know, like, like we are not monsters.

1:12:42

are, as a matter of fact, we're probably the nicest people on planet.

1:12:45

And that's how we work our anger out.

1:12:47

So, you know.

1:12:49

And I think one of the coolest things about going to a show though, and I see this a lot

1:12:49

with like metal shows, emo shows, it's a place where you can go and it doesn't matter your

1:13:02

background because everybody's there for the same thing and everybody's so chill.

1:13:07

Yeah.

1:13:08

Yeah.

1:13:09

And that is like being a music fan.

1:13:15

If you haven't been to a concert, being at a concert is crazy enough.

1:13:20

I've seen Garth Brooks twice and I'm a huge Garth Brooks fan.

1:13:23

So that like was an emotional experience to begin with.

1:13:26

But heavy music, like in my experience, heavy music, there's this camaraderie like

1:13:35

You're going through things in the pit and you look over and you see someone else going

1:13:35

through that and you have this moment of unity without a word being said.

1:13:45

And you want to talk like mental health, you'd be like full fledged, like spiritual almost

1:13:45

connection to be like, yep, me too.

1:13:53

Me too.

1:13:53

I had a breakdown of this song, you know, like there's this moment of unity that goes

1:13:53

completely unspoken.

1:13:59

And, know, like, I can't tell you how many like fist bumps, like

1:14:04

I look over, it's like a sad song and somebody's like tearing up and I'm fighting tears

1:14:04

and we're like knuckles and then we go back to the next.

1:14:11

You know, like I've had so many of those unspoken moments in a pit that like you're

1:14:11

already connected to the lead singer and the band because of one, they gave you this gift

1:14:22

and that song healed you so many times.

1:14:24

And now you're seeing them play the song that means so much to you.

1:14:27

And then you look to your left and right and those guys are taking that same journey and

1:14:27

you're like,

1:14:33

We're all riding the same bus right now.

1:14:35

And it's just such a unifying and mentally healthy thing to do, you know.

1:14:42

I remember, I can't remember who I was watching play.

1:14:47

But it was years ago and I remember, like I was singing my guts out and there was this

1:14:47

person next to me that I didn't even know.

1:14:54

And it was like, you know, we have one those moments.

1:14:56

So we sat there kind of with our arm around each other and sang the rest of the song.

1:15:01

And then I never saw the kid again.

1:15:04

No, never.

1:15:05

Yeah.

1:15:06

It's crazy that that's how unifying music can be.

1:15:10

So they all think they're afraid of us and that's what we're doing with our free time.

1:15:14

So if there's one track today that you could add to your soundtrack, what would it be and

1:15:14

why?

1:15:21

so today, I, I closed the book out with, awakened love by Lacey Sturm of Flyleaf.

1:15:28

But today, one of my, my biggest songs right now is there was a light here by Demon

1:15:28

Hunter.

1:15:34

off of this album.

1:15:35

so Ryan, his mom just passed away and part of my story is my mom kind of abandoned me and

1:15:35

I didn't really have a relationship with her.

1:15:43

you know, as I became a parent.

1:15:48

Her absence reignited almost.

1:15:51

was like, I thought I was over it and then I became a parent.

1:15:55

And as I look at my kids, it became almost inconceivable that my mom would ever walk away

1:15:55

or stay gone.

1:16:01

Like you would have to murder me to keep me away from my kids.

1:16:05

You would have to end my life.

1:16:07

Like that's how simple it is to me.

1:16:09

But she left on her own.

1:16:11

You know, and so I really had a hard time with that.

1:16:14

And that's kind of like the whole, you know, footnote to the book and the ultimate healing

1:16:14

journey that I needed, the ultimate quest of my mental health that I needed to tackle.

1:16:24

But there was a light here is he, his mom is a fantastic lady.

1:16:30

He has this amazing relationship with his mom and she passed away this like last year.

1:16:35

And to see what it is, one of the first times

1:16:41

that I heard a song and I didn't feel like I didn't hear the song and be like, it's nice.

1:16:48

He's got a mom that loves him.

1:16:50

That's what I used to think and feel.

1:16:52

But I felt sorrow for Ryan.

1:16:55

Like as he's going through this, I was like, like I find myself, I find myself praying for

1:16:55

him when I hear that song and be like, it's tough.

1:17:05

know, like he's talking, he's got a little girl.

1:17:07

And he talks about how he sees his mom and his daughter and the song.

1:17:11

And I was like, Panda's so tough.

1:17:13

Like it's weird because this is the first time a song has ever moved me.

1:17:18

I've always felt compassionate.

1:17:20

I always like, we're the same.

1:17:22

But in this time is one of the first times that I'm like, I feel for you.

1:17:27

I'm hurting because you are hurting and I don't relate to this, but I hope you're getting

1:17:27

better.

1:17:33

You know what I mean?

1:17:35

And that song just...

1:17:38

It makes me reflect on my mom and it makes me love her.

1:17:42

I don't wish that she was like Ryan's mom.

1:17:45

I just get this moment where I get to grieve and be sad with a guy who has basically

1:17:45

soundtracked 50 % of my adult life.

1:17:54

So really good song.

1:17:56

Your wife would approve it.

1:17:58

It's a metal band, but it's a very soft and calm song.

1:18:03

If want to have a moment of unity between you and your wife, you take her, there was a

1:18:03

light here and then just let it accidentally fade back to a place in the dirt on the

1:18:10

front.

1:18:11

But it's just this beautiful song.

1:18:14

Honestly, watch the video.

1:18:16

Watch the music video because you said something earlier and I wanted to bring this up.

1:18:21

In the mental health community, I was sitting in, I've been involved in substance abuse

1:18:21

recovery as well.

1:18:27

mainly because comorbidity exists between like people with a mental health crisis using a

1:18:27

substance to Medicaid or people who have done so much substance generating a mental

1:18:37

health.

1:18:38

The comorbidity is just that exists because of that is insane.

1:18:43

But there was a licensed therapist who was talking to the group and I asked a question, I

1:18:43

remember what question I asked him and he's like, well, you know, let me ask you a

1:18:53

question.

1:18:53

He's like, are you a parent?

1:18:54

I was like, yeah, five kids, four boys, one girl.

1:18:58

And he's like, so if your kid screwed up, would you like grab their face and be like,

1:18:58

you're an idiot?

1:19:03

And I was like, no.

1:19:04

He's like, well, why are you doing that to yourself?

1:19:08

He's like, that's what we do.

1:19:09

All the negative self-talk.

1:19:10

He's like, why is it so hard for you to look at yourself in the mirror and give yourself

1:19:10

grace?

1:19:16

And it'd be like, you know, it was a tough day.

1:19:18

You could have done better, but this is where you did right.

1:19:21

And this is how you used to react to this.

1:19:23

But this is how you.

1:19:24

He's like, I want you to replace that voice in your head.

1:19:28

And the question I asked him had nothing to do with his answer.

1:19:31

So like he saw right straight to my soul around the question that I asked him, because

1:19:31

he's the therapist.

1:19:37

And he was like, next time you get those thoughts, I want you to imagine that you're

1:19:37

talking to your kid or even better, a smaller version of yourself, like you as a kid,

1:19:48

because that's really where you're at right now is there was an unparented child.

1:19:52

or an unaddressed need when you were a child that you are still dealing with today and you

1:19:52

almost have to parent yourself.

1:20:00

I remember like feeling so seen and moved almost to tears.

1:20:04

And I was like, wow, that's amazing.

1:20:06

But then there was also this sadness to be like, man, why do I have to do that to myself?

1:20:11

And no matter how great your parents were, you could have grown up in a fantastic home and

1:20:11

they still made mistakes and you just got there.

1:20:20

We all have healing.

1:20:21

And so in this music video, you almost see him like he's sitting at the table.

1:20:27

And I would imagine it's either his childhood home or it's like meant to replicate that

1:20:27

environment.

1:20:34

And you see him consoling himself with the words, the way I envision it, you see him

1:20:34

consoling himself about the loss of his mother with the words that she used to give him to

1:20:46

console him.

1:20:47

And there's this moment of beauty in

1:20:49

just purity and human relationship, all from a metal band.

1:20:53

So if you don't have at least one really nice round in your chamber about why heavy music

1:20:53

is good with your wife by the end of this conversation, that's all I'm trying to give you.

1:21:04

I'm gonna go listen to after this.

1:21:07

I can promise you, because I'm intrigued.

1:21:10

Yes, it is.

1:21:11

It's moving.

1:21:12

You might tear up a little bit or cry.

1:21:15

uh I cried the first time I watched the video.

1:21:17

yeah, it's basically the loss of his mom.

1:21:20

to me, that song symbolizes the end of a selfish era for me.

1:21:24

I listened to that song.

1:21:28

to empathize with my brother, you know?

1:21:32

It's weird and I feel things and it heals me, but I like, I have this moment with a guy

1:21:32

that they're like, man, I hope you can do what you are saying you are trying to do in this

1:21:42

song.

1:21:43

This is unbelievable.

1:21:44

Highly, highly recommend.

1:21:47

I will go listen to it.

1:21:51

And I'll say the one that is probably I'd add to my soundtrack lately, it's by a band,

1:21:51

they're called Thousand Below.

1:22:04

And the song's called Save Me.

1:22:07

And it's off their newest album that just came out like probably two or three months ago.

1:22:11

The album's pretty good, but...

1:22:13

And it's basically to me, like the way I got it or took it is to me it's like, you know,

1:22:13

he's in love with somebody and they're not so much in love with him anymore.

1:22:30

But in the end he realizes he just needed somebody to save him.

1:22:35

And sometimes it's like, I feel...

1:22:38

When I heard this song, it's like I feel like at times when I'm going through my mental

1:22:38

health issues, I feel like I'm a burden, especially to my wife.

1:22:49

So it makes it really hard for me to sometimes be open and communicate in the way that I

1:22:49

should.

1:22:55

But at the end, I know like I need someone to save me and to help me through this.

1:23:00

I just don't know how to push myself to.

1:23:02

But at the same time, it's like I know that I'm giving her hell for.

1:23:06

Yeah.

1:23:07

my issues that I'm dealing with.

1:23:09

Yeah.

1:23:11

Yeah.

1:23:11

And you, you see how your mind starts to trick you, right?

1:23:15

You know, like, like you said, you, feel like you're a burden.

1:23:19

I, I, don't know your wife, but I know as a husband myself, like if, you know, my wife is

1:23:19

going through stuff like that, I definitely want to hear about it.

1:23:28

Like you sense it anyways.

1:23:30

And to have it out in the open, it's a,

1:23:33

And again, I don't say that in an accusatory way in any way, shape or form.

1:23:37

I hope this doesn't feel like a chest poke, but the lies that we tell ourselves as humans,

1:23:37

be like, oh, I don't want to be a burden.

1:23:44

Like, like you're not.

1:23:48

People want to come next alongside of you, especially you use the word in your acronym,

1:23:48

use a word that's basically like safety, know, having trusted people, trusted agents.

1:24:03

that you can go a little deeper with.

1:24:06

A little bit like, hey, how you doing?

1:24:08

I'm not doing so well, but I'll get over it.

1:24:10

That's surface level and it's allowing you to be honest.

1:24:13

But there are those people that you can dig deep with and they want to be in those trials

1:24:13

with you.

1:24:20

And in my and it's like those situations like my wife's always really good to turn around

1:24:20

and say no like You idiot like I I want you to tell me And it's like in the end.

1:24:33

know it's like a me thing because most of the time like we're we're really good like

1:24:33

communicators But it's just times like especially not so much with my anxiety, but with my

1:24:45

depression I tend to shut down

1:24:50

So just one kind of last question, a few follow ups here for you.

1:24:57

I feel like I could talk to you forever.

1:25:01

A lot of common ground that we've kind of found here.

1:25:07

But what's the one thing that you hope that people take away from reading your book?

1:25:15

So this book was really to push people into art and using art, like I used art music

1:25:15

specifically, but I used art as a drug and I had to gain a healthy respect for music.

1:25:30

You've heard my journey, was like, rock is evil and then I listened to it and then I

1:25:30

determined that it was evil and then I threw it away and then I was like, no, you're

1:25:39

irresponsible.

1:25:40

So like this whole thread of like,

1:25:42

what is going on with music in my life is really important.

1:25:48

But the takeaway is that mental health, almost everyone's struggling with something.

1:25:54

And my story, I say like, I'm a hypocrite with a decent story.

1:26:00

That's really what it comes down to.

1:26:02

But I believe that I need to tell it.

1:26:06

And I believe that I need to tell it in an artistic way.

1:26:09

And so that's kind of my plea.

1:26:11

I heard you say photography.

1:26:14

You you're you sound like you're a really huge music fan, but people may not listen to

1:26:14

your story, but you can see something like a dark sunset where the clouds are behind

1:26:26

mountains and it's treacherous and it makes you feel away.

1:26:30

Like it makes your soul feel connected to the environment around you.

1:26:35

And you're like, I'm gonna take a picture of that.

1:26:37

And then you print it and you put it up on a board and people walk by and they're like,

1:26:37

interesting, you know, like now all of a sudden you have this connection that no one,

1:26:47

somebody might not have had with you, but now because you're showing them this picture,

1:26:47

they're like, this so dark and this and that, and there's almost like a conversation.

1:26:59

And that that's kind of what I'm, I plead with is when I say I found my voice, not just to

1:26:59

tell my story in these platforms.

1:27:06

I believe that I need to use my voice to write and record music and put it out there.

1:27:11

And now that I'm done writing this book, I wrote the book first because it's easier and I

1:27:11

really wanted to record the audio book and get comfortable in front of a mic and learn how

1:27:20

to use digital audio workstations.

1:27:22

And like I spent the last two weeks like recording the first song I ever wrote in my first

1:27:22

bout of depression with insomnia.

1:27:30

That's what song's about.

1:27:32

And so that's what I'm pleading with people is it doesn't matter if the art is good.

1:27:39

The skill will come eventually, but the tale needs to be told.

1:27:44

Make art, tell your story because it's important.

1:27:49

It is insanely important to tell your story and to make sure that it's not necessarily

1:27:49

like you said in the beginning of this, is healing for you.

1:28:02

But it's healing for the other people almost.

1:28:06

You're allowing yourself to be seen and in turn allowing other people to feel seen through

1:28:06

sharing what it is that you've experienced.

1:28:16

And that would be my biggest place is use that story to create it all.

1:28:21

I absolutely love it.

1:28:21

And where can people find you?

1:28:24

So I'm all over social media.

1:28:28

Mainly I do a lot on Instagram.

1:28:30

I recently started to spin up with YouTube now that I am writing and recording music,

1:28:30

trying to do covers and just kind of getting people inside my world and create a

1:28:39

connection.

1:28:39

I used to want to be a rock star, but now I want to build a community.

1:28:42

want people to know that they are seen and that they're valuable and I want to help people

1:28:42

create art.

1:28:48

Dualist media is the footprint that I'm using to do that and to help people navigate

1:28:48

through some of that stuff if they are interested.

1:28:55

And I don't charge people.

1:28:57

I just want to encourage people and listen to their story and see what they create.

1:29:02

So yeah, social media, those are the two big ones that I'm on.

1:29:06

I have stuff going on Facebook, but it's not a lot of things going on there.

1:29:14

As far as the book, if anyone's interested in picking it up,

1:29:17

It is self-published, but I do have a publishing imprint that I established to get it out

1:29:17

there.

1:29:24

But it's in audiobook, it's in ebook, it's hardcover paperback, can get it at Barnes &

1:29:24

Noble, Amazon, all those things.

1:29:31

Pretty much anywhere if you were to Google it, you'll be able to find it.

1:29:35

And I'll put all those links up in the show notes as well so people can easily access your

1:29:35

stuff.

1:29:43

And we discussed a lot of topics tonight.

1:29:46

Is there anything that you'd like to bring up that we did not cover?

1:29:51

No, the one thing that I was afraid we wouldn't make it around to was the parenting

1:29:51

yourself and the being kind to yourself.

1:29:58

you know, like if you were to talk to your kids, what would you say to them?

1:30:01

Or if you were to look back at a critical moment where you were mishandled or mismanaged

1:30:01

and you could go back in time and sit down and hold your own little face and tell yourself

1:30:12

one truth, what would you say and how would you say that?

1:30:17

That's, I wanted to make sure we got around to that.

1:30:21

But I'm off the road out to you, that there is one thing that you could parent yourself

1:30:21

in.

1:30:27

What would you say to younger version of Travis?

1:30:32

I've always struggled and I'm being completely vulnerable here with some anger issues.

1:30:40

And I think I'd want to overcome them.

1:30:41

They come out every once in a while now and it's like in those moments I get so mean.

1:30:51

I raise my voice more but I wish this is the one thing that I'd pair myself with as of

1:30:51

right now.

1:31:01

It reminds me of like, there's a child book, a children's book called Grumpy Monkey.

1:31:07

it's, I know you're familiar with the story, but basically there's this, this chimpanzee

1:31:07

that goes around and he's grumpy and he has a friend that's like, well, why you grumpy?

1:31:17

So he tries to get him to do all these activities and the very end of the book, basically,

1:31:17

basically it says like, you know what?

1:31:25

It's okay to be grumpy.

1:31:27

Like, it's okay to have those off days.

1:31:29

So, like I want to teach myself that it's fine to have those off days, but there's no

1:31:29

reason.

1:31:35

Like, I have the right to be like angry with certain things or grumpy, whatever, but I

1:31:35

don't have the right to be mean.

1:31:44

And that's something that I need to instill within my kids that we're trying to teach our

1:31:44

kids is like, you know what?

1:31:49

You can be mad at the world, but you can't be mean to us.

1:31:51

You don't need to be mean.

1:31:53

And I think I need to do a little bit better at practicing what I preach when it comes to

1:31:53

that.

1:32:00

Yeah, that's beautiful, man.

1:32:02

Thank you for sharing that.

1:32:05

And that's the one thing that I would leave your community with tonight.

1:32:10

Be nice to yourself, Like, it's easy for us as we get better from a mental health

1:32:10

perspective to look at others with more patience and to lean into other people's stories

1:32:23

with kindness and compassion.

1:32:25

But we forget to do that to ourselves.

1:32:28

You know what I mean?

1:32:30

We're totally human, capable of error, and boy will we screw up.

1:32:38

But yeah, the beauty of humanity is that we get to try again.

1:32:43

You get a redo and you get opportunities to learn from.

1:32:49

I tell my staff at work, fail forward.

1:32:51

Fail faster and fail forward.

1:32:54

and just to have that grace with yourself to be like, well, I didn't work.

1:32:57

And like, what are we going to do next?

1:32:59

And that is so important because I tend to be a lot nicer to other people, but I'm not

1:32:59

really always as good to myself as I should be.

1:33:09

I'm doing same way.

1:33:12

I would just hope that you you anyone listening to this even in the future that that we we

1:33:12

take that time and just just give yourself grace and you're doing the best you can.

1:33:22

I'm sure if you're not fix that but still give yourself grace.

1:33:28

And think that's important one to touch is giving yourself grace.

1:33:31

I think that's something that I try to emphasize as much as I can because I don't think we

1:33:31

do it often enough.

1:33:39

right.

1:33:40

I agree.

1:33:42

Well, Tony, a couple of things.

1:33:43

you.

1:33:44

Number one, thank you for your service and keeping this country safe.

1:33:49

And number number two, thank you for spending so much time with me and having an enjoyable

1:33:49

conversation.

1:34:00

Absolutely.

1:34:03

Or if you, go ahead if you're gonna say something.

1:34:05

You look like you're, I don't wanna cut you off.

1:34:08

no, no, I was just saying, I feel like we've left so much ground uncovered.

1:34:13

So if there's ever, I'm not just going to invite myself back on your show, but if there's

1:34:13

ever an opportunity for me to come back, would love to.

1:34:21

So you let me know.

1:34:25

Yeah, you let me know.

1:34:26

I mean, I won't be mad if you don't, but yeah, there's so many things we just barely

1:34:26

scratched the surface on, man.

1:34:33

yeah, for sure.

1:34:35

And thank you to everyone that listened.

1:34:37

If you're a music lover, I guarantee that this episode is going to resonate with you.

1:34:43

So please share it and subscribe to our channel.

1:34:46

You can find us on all major podcast platforms.

1:34:49

Thanks again.

1:34:50

Until next time.