Overcoming Paralysis and Spinal Cord Injury With Resilience | Ken Kunken

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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health podcast.

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I am your host, Travis White, and this is a place where you can share your mental health

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stories and the challenges that you have had to overcome.

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I am very excited for tonight's guest.

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We are speaking with Ken Cunken.

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Ken is the author of A Dream of Things That Never Were, The Ken Cunken Story.

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And welcome to the show, Ken.

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Thank you, Travis.

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Thank you for having me as your guest.

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The pleasure is all mine.

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And I'm just going to turn the time right over to you to tell us about your journey.

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Let's jump right into it.

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Okay, well I think the best place to start would be to take your listeners back to 1970.

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Because at that time, I was a fairly typical 20-year-old college student at Cornell

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University.

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I mean, there was nothing different about me than there appeared to be about any other

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student.

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I worked hard in school and I loved sports.

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I was a member of a fraternity and I had a lot of good friends.

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And like most 20-year-olds,

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I dreamed of leading a useful, productive, rewarding and happy life.

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But my life changed dramatically on October 31st, 1970.

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On that day, I broke my neck and severely damaged my spinal cord, making a tackle on a

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kickoff in a lightweight football game against Columbia University.

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And in an instant, I lost all movement below my shoulders

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And I lost virtually all sensation just a couple inches below my shoulders.

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So I have almost no sensation to the most of my body.

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I now, after a lengthy period of hospitalization and rehabilitation, can move my left arm

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a bit, although I can't move my fingers or my wrist.

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And on the right side of my body, I can just shrug my shoulder a bit.

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So I spent the next nine months and 20 days

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in various hospitals and rehabilitation centers.

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And just Travis, if I might add, at the time I was beginning my junior year at Cornell

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University studying engineering at one of the most prestigious engineering colleges in the

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country.

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While I was in the rehab center, I got ahold of a pamphlet that the rehab Institute put

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out and they talked a bit about what somebody in my condition, somebody with a spinal cord

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injury,

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who was hurt between the fourth and fifth cervicals of the neck, may eventually be able to

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do work-wise.

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And the only thing I saw in that book for somebody injured to my extent would be to

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someday sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone.

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And I was devastated by that.

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Here I had a physical injury, not an intellectual disability, nothing to affect my

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emotional state.

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And suddenly the best the medical professionals seem to think that I would ever be able to

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do would be to sell magazine subscriptions over the telephone.

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And I was devastated.

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Well, I'm sure you were, but look, you know, and your academic background is excellent.

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you, the one thing that I can pick out is you proved that medical professional, those

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medical professionals completely wrong and went above and beyond.

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And I take a lot of pride in that accomplishment.

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Oh, you deserve to take a lot of pride.

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would too.

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I love it.

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thinking back to your accident, what was going through your mind on those early days,

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those early days after the accident?

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Like, where was your headspace to be exact?

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You know, it was incredibly frustrating.

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At that time, not many people knew a lot about spinal cord injuries, at least in the

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public's perspective.

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I mean, this was about 20 years before Christopher Reeve was injured.

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Now Christopher Reeve was a tremendous spokesman for people with disabilities and

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particularly people with spinal cord injuries.

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And he shed a lot of awareness on the topic.

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But at the time, not many lay people knew much about spinal cord injuries.

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I certainly didn't.

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And the medical professionals seemed reluctant to tell me more about my condition.

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They seemed to be hesitant to answer any of my questions or to really let me know what was

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going on.

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And it was incredibly frustrating.

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And here I was, I lost virtually all movement through my body and yet my mind was still

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intact.

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And I became incredibly depressed.

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And quite frankly, if I had the option,

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I probably would have chosen to have lost my mind and not had to go through experiencing

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what it was like to be facing this devastating illness, knowing that I may never be able

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to move again and basically just, you know, be relying on other people's help and in

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essence, only having my head attacked and the rest of my body essentially dead.

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Yeah, and that's, I could speak to a little bit, not near as much as what you would be

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going through.

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But when you have to start becoming dependent on other people in honestly any sort of way,

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it's very difficult thing to go through.

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It was incredibly difficult.

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In fact, it's still difficult more than 50 years later.

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But, you know, I was very fortunate that I had a very supportive family and a group of

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friends who basically were by my side the whole time and encouraged me to keep going.

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But just so you and your listeners know, before my injury, I basically thought of myself

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as a very active, physical person.

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I mean, sports were seem to be everything in my life.

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And if I was asked to describe myself, I always would have talked about what I was doing

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physically first before I would say, and by the way, I was also a pretty decent student as

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well.

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That seemed to come last in my thinking.

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Now here I was, everything in my life had changed and I had to depend more on my

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intellectual ability and totally try to compensate.

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for the lack of any physical movement.

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That's great.

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And I love that you have the support system to help you out and to help push you forward.

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How did your identity as a young athlete shape your response to the paralysis?

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Well, you know, as an athlete, I always tried to remain motivated to excel in my

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performance, to push myself to do and achieve more and never be satisfied with the status

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quo.

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And I was an individual who was smaller than many of the athletes I was competing against.

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So I think that pushed me even harder to be motivated to try and

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accomplished things that think most people thought I wouldn't accomplish.

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And I worked hard both before and after my injury to be very motivated, to do as much as I

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could.

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And following my injury, I worked hard not to let that stop me from remaining motivated.

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So that was quite an effort, not only on my part, but on my family's part to help

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encourage me not to give up.

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and to still try to do my best.

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Yeah, this is great.

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I love your resilience that you've built up.

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And it just seems like you're pretty much ready for any challenge that comes.

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it's been that lifetime of overcoming that has really pushed you through.

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And I love it.

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And I'm curious though, back in the 70s when you went back to Cornell,

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I'm guessing that the accessibility was completely different than it is now.

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What did college look like back in those days?

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Okay, well, I was injured in 1970.

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I went back to school in 1971 and there was a steep learning curve to getting adjusted to

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what architectural barriers really meant for somebody in my condition.

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I mean, I was injured about 20 years before the Americans with Disabilities Act took

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effect.

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Now that act, you know, required

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educational facilities and other public facilities to be made more accessible,

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particularly to people who use wheelchairs.

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So this was 20 years before that act.

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So Cornell was particularly inaccessible.

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It's on a very hilly terrain in upstate Ithaca, New York, and virtually every one of its

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buildings had steps in front of it in 1971.

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And there was not one ramp or curb cut on the entire campus.

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So just to tell you a little bit more, one of the classes that I was taking was located in

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a building that had 16 steps in front of it.

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And my dorm room was in a building that had 10 steps just to get in.

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On my first day of classes, I had to be either pulled up or bounced down close to 100

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steps just to attend my first day.

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That's crazy.

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I can't imagine having to go through that.

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It really was crazy.

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And I remember getting back after my first day, had my personal care attendant lay me down

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in bed.

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And I remember that lying there staring at the ceiling, thinking, what was I thinking

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making this decision to go back to Cornell so soon after my accident and getting out of

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the hospital.

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I had only been out of the rehab center for 11 days before I went back to school.

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And I was still trying to adjust to my new

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physical condition, let alone now facing all the physical obstacles and pursuing a very

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difficult major.

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I went back studying in industrial engineering still and I remember lying there thinking I

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have no plan B.

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I didn't know what else I was going to do if I didn't make this work.

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So I tried especially hard to make a success out of my decision and I was fortunate that

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with a lot of help from my attendance.

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classmates, fraternity brothers, teammates, you know, on the sport I was injured playing,

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as well as my family and friends.

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I was able to complete my junior and senior year in engineering during those next two

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years.

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And I became the first quadriplegic to ever graduate from Cornell University.

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And that was in 1973.

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That's really cool.

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And what would you say is like motivated you to keep pushing forward academically?

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Okay, well, it's an interesting way that you put it to remain motivated to do that.

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I want to make it clear before my injury, I was also very motivated.

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I mean, you don't go to Cornell, study engineering and play a sport at the same time and

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not be extremely motivated.

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But to remain motivated was really difficult.

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And I credit my family and friends for constantly pushing me and encouraging me.

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to basically say, you know, they'll act as my arms and legs if need be to make sure I

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could still do everything I wanted to do with my life.

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And it got to the point where I felt I'd be letting them down if I didn't work especially

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hard and make the most of what they were allowing me to do, going back to Cornell and

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trying to lead a useful and productive life.

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And I credit them with helping me remain motivated.

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It's really cool.

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And I've said this before, but I think it's really wonderful that you had such a bunch of

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people in your corner that were willing to help you out.

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And you mentioned before that you earned multiple degrees.

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What other degrees did you get?

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Okay, well, while I graduated with a degree in engineering, it was clear to me that back

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in 1973, industrial engineering was not a very viable field for me.

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This was well before the age of laptop computers.

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So I saw it was very difficult for me to function as an engineer.

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And I was fortunate that I had a psychology professor who I had taken psychology as an

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elective by the name of Dr.

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James Moss, who unfortunately

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died just recently.

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I unfortunately heard he died recently.

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I mean, this was more than 50 years ago that I had him as my professor.

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And he thought pursuing a career in psychology and becoming a counselor would be a good

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field for me because I still had my speaking ability.

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You know, while I couldn't physically move, I could still speak with to to and with

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people.

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So he encouraged me to pursue a career in counseling.

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And I did that.

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I remained at Cornell.

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and I earned a Master of Arts degree where I majored in counseling and student personnel

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administration.

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And I became the first quadriplegic to earn a graduate degree from Cornell as well.

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And then they increased my counseling credentials.

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I went to Columbia University, which happened to be the school I was injured playing

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against, and I earned my second master's degree.

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This one a master's of education where I majored in psychological counseling and

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rehabilitation.

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And I decided to look for a job in the rehabilitation counseling field.

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And here I had Travis, now I had two degrees from Cornell, one from Columbia, three

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prestigious Ivy league degrees, two master's degrees, and no one would hire me.

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I looked for a job for a year and I sent out more than 200 resumes.

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I was even turned down off to volunteer my services, Travis.

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Everyone back in the mid 70s thought I did I was just too disabled to work and here think

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about it I did everything I could to rehabilitate myself rehabilitate myself make

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something of my life and No one would even give me that chance for more than a year

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Finally, I found one organization willing to give me that opportunity and that

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organization was abilities incorporated

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which was part of what was then called the Human Resources Center.

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It's now called the Viscardi Center after its founder, Dr.

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Henry Viscardi Jr.

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They're located in Albertson, Long Island, and they hired me to work as a vocational

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rehabilitation counselor for other individuals who had severe physical disabilities.

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And for that opportunity, I'll always be grateful.

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And that changed my life.

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Yeah, it's too bad that it takes so many rejections to find that one, but in the end, to

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me, almost sounds like, and maybe this is just me thinking out loud here that, how to put

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this, it was, to me, it almost seems like it could have been the universe calling to you

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and in a way.

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You know, when I was hired there, it was six and a half years after my spinal cord injury.

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And during those six and a half years, I was the recipient of so much physical help from

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so many different individuals.

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And I felt terrible about constantly being receiving help and not being able to give back

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in any way, help to others.

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And now for the first time,

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working at the Viscardi Center as vocational rehabilitation counselor, I was in a position

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where I could help others.

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And what a tremendous feeling that was and remains today as, you know, the one specific

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step that totally changed my life.

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And it increased my self-esteem, my feelings of self-worth, my self-confidence, and just

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brightened my day and made me feel so much better.

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about my situation and what I was able to do and the fact that I saw that now I could help

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others changed my whole perspective on what was taking place around me.

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That's so cool.

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love to see, I should say not see, but I love to hear about just those things that you had

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to overcome and the barriers that you had to move past to pretty much, yeah, go ahead.

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that while I was working as a counselor to other individuals who had severe physical

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disabilities, I was actually more severely limited physically than all of the people I was

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counseling.

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And as a result, I feel that it was helping motivate the people I was counseling to see

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that if with my disability, I could still go out, complete my education.

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and work at a very responsible position, I think it encouraged others to try and do the

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same.

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And that made me feel better as well about what I was trying to achieve and hopefully was

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achieving in that job.

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Fantastic.

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It's, oh, I love talking about this stuff.

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Absolutely love it.

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And what, can kind of go back to just the journey and your recovery?

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What role did mindset play in that, in your journey and recovery and accomplishment?

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Well, there are many things that went into my recovery when you talk about mindset.

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And for one, what I'd like to talk about is the effect people's expectations have on you

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as a person.

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You know, it seemed that there was such limited expectations for what I would ever be able

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to do that I was fortunate that my family kept me motivated to do more than what the

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medical professionals

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Seem to be expecting of me.

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I mean many of the People that I met in a rehab facility who had been hurt far longer than

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I had been Didn't seem to be doing much with their lives And I believe a lot of that was

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attributed to the fact that they weren't encouraged or expected to do more or something

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productive As for me, I thought there was more that I could do than just sell magazine

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subscriptions

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over the telephone.

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And thanks to a vocational counselor at the Rusk Institute by the name of Joyce Mesh, she

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encouraged me to go back to school and continue my education.

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And with that encouragement, I decided to do that.

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And I went back to school, completed my degree, and then my master's degrees, and felt

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that there should still be a lot somebody with a disability could do.

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But back in the 70s,

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The expectations for somebody with a disability were so limited that it wasn't just the

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physical obstacles I was dealing with, it was the attitudinal obstacles.

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You know, convincing somebody to just give me a chance to show what I could do was

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incredibly difficult.

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And while it's gotten a lot better over the years, it's still an issue for many people

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with disabilities, convincing an employer to just give them the opportunity.

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to work and show people what somebody with a disability can still do.

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And I think once the employer does that, they see that people with disabilities are some

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of the hardest working, most dedicated, motivating, and loyal employees that an employer

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can ever hope to find.

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Very true.

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And I'm glad to hear that over the years it's getting better, but what would you say are

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some of the things that society could even do to improve employment for people with

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disabilities now?

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Well, one of the things would be taking away the disincentives for going back to work.

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And by that, I mean that there are many people that are dependent on public benefits, such

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as Medicaid, to allow them to have the resources to pay for a personal care aid or

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transportation to get to and from a job to enable them to go back to work.

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or even start work for the first time.

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And one of the disincentives is if you go to work and start earning money, you may lose

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your Medicaid benefits and lose the attendant care that you're dependent on.

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And if that could be changed so that people were not fearful of losing those benefits, I

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think that would encourage more people with disabilities, one, to go to work, and two,

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the more employers and other people saw individuals with disabilities out in public,

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whether it be because now transportation facilities have been made more accessible.

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I mean, now I could ride on most public buses or take a railroad, a train or a subway.

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That changes a lot of a person's ability to get to and from a job, but it also changes

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people's perceptions when they see people out in public.

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you know, public transportations, eating at restaurants, going to movie theaters or

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Broadway shows.

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You know, you're less afraid of somebody who looks different than you or acts different

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than you.

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And you become more accepting.

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It's more commonplace.

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And you don't think twice now about sitting next to somebody at a job who may have a

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disability, right?

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Or hiring somebody.

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who may go about performing certain tasks a little different than you might have done it.

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It makes a huge difference.

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So I think those are some of the things that can be done.

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Excellent.

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Really good stuff.

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And I can see exactly where it come from.

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You brought up all really good points.

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You said that you just mentioned too that you were talking to going back for another going

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back and getting more schooling.

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What other schooling did you do?

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Okay, well, I loved my job as a vocational rehabilitation counselor.

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As I indicated, that really changed my life.

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And the longer I worked there, my duties kept expanding and increasing.

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And one of my responsibilities was to speak before groups and organizations concerning

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affirmative action and non-discrimination for people with disabilities.

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And I often spoke before groups and organizations and following my talks, I would be asked

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questions.

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And while I would do my best to respond appropriately, I was always careful to caution the

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questioners.

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They should really consult with a lawyer about their concerns.

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And Travis, I guess it didn't take long before I started to think, you know, there's no

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reason why I couldn't become that lawyer.

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I had an older brother who was actually a lawyer at the time.

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His name is Stephen and he worked in criminal laws, defense attorney.

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And I'd watch him in court and I thought that was something I could do because it relied

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more on my speaking ability.

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And here speaking at these conferences, when I was recommending that people speak to a

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lawyer about their concerns, I thought I ought to learn more about the law.

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So I left my job and I went to Hofstra University School of Law and I became a lawyer.

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And after my second year of law school,

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through my brother's recommendation, I did an internship at the Nassau County District

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Attorney's Office.

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And not only did I love that experience, I found a new way that I could help people and

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serve the community as a whole.

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So after my third year of law, at the beginning of my third year of law school, I applied

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for a full-time position with the District Attorney's Office.

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And I was very fortunate that the District Attorney at the time,

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A fellow by the name of Dennis Dillon based his hiring decision on my abilities rather

24:52

than my disability.

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And he hired me.

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And I might add, Travis, at that time, I didn't know of another quadriplegic who was a

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trial attorney or let alone an assistant district attorney.

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I mean, there may have been some, but I had never heard about it.

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And on Long Island, I know there weren't any at that time.

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But Dennis Dillon, as I said,

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based his hiring decision on my abilities rather than my disability.

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And he gave me that opportunity.

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And as a result, I'll always be grateful to him as well.

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And I worked at the district attorney's office for more than 40 years.

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Well, this is awesome.

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I love how you just set your mind to something.

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like, you know what?

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I can do that.

25:48

All right, and not only did I do it, I was promoted a number of times in my job where I

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eventually became a supervisor.

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I became one of our deputy bureau chiefs where I was then helping supervise more than 25

25:57

other assistant district attorneys.

26:07

That's so cool.

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It seems like you've been through some demanding careers in your lifetime.

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How do you balance family with such demanding career?

26:19

That's a really interesting question.

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And that started early on where I basically made up my mind shortly after my injury that I

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was going to do my best not to let my injury prevent me from doing all the other things

26:35

that I wanted to do in my life had I not been injured.

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And one of those things was dating.

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And as you might expect, dating when you're a quadriplegic and trying to impress a woman,

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when you're almost totally paralyzed poses its own unique set of challenges.

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So that took me a while.

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In fact, I was almost 50 years old when I met the perfect woman for me.

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Her name is Anna.

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She's actually sitting to my right just off camera right now.

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And Anna is the most incredible woman that I ever met.

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And I must say that, you know, for years I never even considered

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the possibility that I would eventually fall in love with a woman and want to get married.

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But getting to know Anna and dating her changed my whole perspective on that as well.

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And in 2003, Anna and I were married.

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So it was such an incredible event.

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Travis had changed my life marrying this woman.

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And when I married Anna, she told me that she wanted to have my baby.

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And not just a baby, my baby.

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She said she wanted to see a little clunking running around our home.

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Now this really seemed impossible.

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But through Anna's encouragement, I decided we would pursue it.

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And we looked into various options, including in vitro fertilization.

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And I was amazed and shocked to find it still may be possible for someone in my condition

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to father a child.

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So we pursued in vitro fertilization and through what I would describe as the miracle of

28:23

science, Anna became pregnant.

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And Travis on January 24th, 2005, I was present in the delivery room.

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Think about this.

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I was present in the delivery room when my wife, gave birth to triplets.

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We have three incredibly beautiful, healthy sons who are incredibly bright, incredibly

28:50

motivated, who have just completed their sophomore years in three separate colleges at

29:03

upstate New York.

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And they brighten my life every single day.

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That's incredible.

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And I can tell just by talking with you that you have a wonderful wife.

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I sure do.

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I am so fortunate that I have a wonderful family life that includes not just being

29:19

married, but it includes fatherhood.

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We live in a wonderful ranch house here on Long Island.

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We're active in many different activities and I have a wonderful personal life as well as

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I had a wonderful professional life.

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I actually retired last year.

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And I look back at it.

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I think I was very fortunate with all I was able to do in my life.

29:55

Thanks to the encouragement, support and help from an incredible group of family, friends

29:55

and classmates, strangers, just about everybody I met have helped me every step of the

30:11

way.

30:12

And I'll always be grateful for that.

30:14

I'm also proud to say

30:16

that I am active and involved in the Viscardi Center, where they gave me that opportunity

30:16

to work.

30:24

now on their board of directors, and I'm thrilled to still be active with that

30:24

organization.

30:30

And to show you how involved my family was in helping me along the way, it's actually my

30:30

cousin Roy Danis there that became so involved.

30:39

He's actually chairman of the board of directors at the Viscardi Center right now.

30:46

I love it all and over the years, so you have mentioned this before, you built up such a

30:46

resilience in everything that you do.

30:54

What lessons have you tried to pass on to your sons about resilience?

31:00

Well, one, obviously, is never quit.

31:04

Always strive to do the best you can do.

31:06

But it's so important to try and maintain a positive attitude.

31:11

Having a positive attitude about things helps you in so many ways.

31:15

And it also encourages other people to want to be around you and want to help you if you

31:15

need that further assistance.

31:24

When they see how hard you're trying.

31:27

to be productive and make something of your life.

31:30

It makes everybody want to join in and help you and you know to do your best not to stress

31:30

about things you cannot change.

31:40

You know you need to think more positively about things you can still do and you know I

31:40

think part of my message is while you cannot always control what happens to you, you can

31:53

control how you react to what happens to

31:57

And that makes a big difference.

31:59

I would say that's a huge difference.

32:02

And I can highly relate to what you just said, having a positive attitude.

32:07

That's something that I've been working on changing myself over the past year with some

32:07

stuff that I've been going through.

32:14

Because my wife will tell everyone I'm pessimistic.

32:18

It's just one of my characteristics.

32:20

So I've had to overcome that, I think, more positively.

32:24

And it does, it gets you a lot further in life to have that mindset.

32:29

Travis, I can wake up every morning and decide, I going to have a bad day or a good day?

32:36

And I always try and choose to have a good day, right?

32:41

It makes such a difference in the kind of day I will have, because I know if I go about it

32:41

with the right attitude, I will have a more positive experience and I will enjoy it more.

32:54

Whatever has taken place that day, if I look on the bright side.

33:01

awesome.

33:02

keep, tell the listeners, build up that positive attitude and keep at it.

33:08

So I'd love to dive into your book here.

33:11

What inspired you to share your story in I Dream of Things That Never Were?

33:16

Okay, well, let me tell you a little bit about how I came up with that title.

33:20

While I was still a patient at the Rusk Institute, approximately six months after my

33:20

injury, I was asked to testify before United States Senate Health Subcommittee chaired by

33:33

Senator Edward Kennedy.

33:35

And eight days after my testimony, Senator Kennedy sent me a glass paperweight in the mail

33:35

that had an inscription on it.

33:44

that the senator said his late brother Robert Kennedy liked very much.

33:49

In fact, the inscription had a quotation on it that Robert Kennedy used to finish most of

33:49

his talks by saying this quotation.

33:58

And the quotation is, some men see things as they are and say why.

34:04

I dream of things that never were and say why not.

34:08

And that's where I got the title of my book, I Dream of Things That Never Were.

34:13

And while I was still a patient in the rehab facility, a friend of my Aunt Lorraine's by

34:13

the name of Albert Meglin came and visited me in the center and knew I was very depressed

34:24

and knew that most people didn't know much about spinal cord injuries or what the

34:24

rehabilitation process was like.

34:31

And he encouraged me to write a book about what I was going through because he thought

34:31

one, it would be informative to people about

34:40

what it was like going through this process.

34:42

And two, maybe it would help me deal with my disabilities to be able to express what I was

34:42

going through.

34:49

So he used to come and visit me at the center once a week and ask me to describe what it

34:49

was like and what I was going through.

34:57

And we kept that up for, you know, a few months until I returned to school.

35:02

And then when I would be back on vacations, I would meet with him again and dictate some

35:02

more.

35:09

And then when I was on my own and, you know, no longer meeting with him, I tried even to

35:09

do some typing by myself with the aid of braces and splints on my left arm.

35:23

I could type just very, very slowly with the tip of a pencil sticking out from my split,

35:23

you know, of a metal thing with an eraser at the end, typing real, real slowly.

35:34

And I even type a little on my own, very slow and very tired.

35:39

And then I put it down for years and pick it up and put it down.

35:43

And then after I married my wonderful wife and we had our three children, she encouraged

35:43

me to go back to the book and try and finish it.

35:53

And with her help, she would sit by her laptop computer and I would dictate to her.

36:00

And we actually finished the book more than 50 years after I had first started writing it.

36:06

And I was fortunate that we were able to find a publisher.

36:09

by the titled 12 Tables Press.

36:12

Its owner, Steve Eric, agreed to publish my book.

36:17

And it's actually on the shelf right behind me.

36:19

I dream of things that never were.

36:21

And I'm so glad that it's in print.

36:24

And I get very positive comments from people who have read it.

36:29

And if people want to know more about my book or about me, they can...

36:32

go to my website which is kenkunkin.com and it tells them how they can order the book

36:32

which is available through Amazon as well as other sources and it's available not only in

36:45

a hardcover but in a Kindle version as well as in an audiobook which I narrated myself.

36:52

So it's available in three different ways and I'm very pleased that it's now out in print.

36:58

because I've been told that it's helped encourage others to do more with their lives.

37:03

And when people face challenges and are trying to overcome adversity, it's nice to know

37:03

that you're not alone, that other people have done this, faced these challenges and be

37:15

able to know it's been done before.

37:18

So you can do it.

37:19

And I'm fortunate that it's now out there and people are able to read it.

37:25

and or listen to it.

37:26

And I'm so pleased that even my children have had the opportunity to read it.

37:34

Well, I am very grateful that your wife pushed that forward and helped you get that out

37:34

there.

37:42

Me too.

37:44

If you could give advice to someone facing what feels like an impossible setback, what

37:44

would you tell them?

37:51

Well, I tell them that sometimes you gotta take a step back and look at things from a

37:51

different perspective.

38:00

And while initially, and for quite a while, it may seem like you're facing overwhelming

38:00

odds and that it's gonna be difficult to overcome them or even face them, there's still a

38:14

lot everyone can do.

38:16

You may have to go about finding a different way.

38:20

to accomplish what you set your mind to and what your goals may be.

38:25

But there's an awful lot everyone can still do.

38:28

So if they work hard at it, never give up, remain determined and motivated, I think we all

38:28

can succeed at what we want to do.

38:39

Very, very well said.

38:42

I have kind of just a general question for you that I ask pretty much everybody that comes

38:42

on the podcast.

38:48

And I just like to hear the responses that I get.

38:52

What would you say is the biggest stigma within mental health?

38:58

Well, the biggest stigma is that people are still fearful for people that are different

38:58

than they are, whether it be with intellectual or emotional disability or a physical

39:11

disability.

39:12

And I think the fact that many people often have not come in personal contact with

39:12

somebody who has this type of disability, they're fearful of the unknown because they

39:23

don't know what to expect, you know, or

39:27

They may be afraid of hurting somebody's feelings by saying the wrong thing.

39:32

And I think it doesn't help that in today's environment, you have people in the

39:32

administration who have negative opinions on diversity, equity and inclusion, DEI.

39:44

And rather than encouraging people to be more accepting of people, right?

39:50

To encourage in, you know, being in a diverse setting.

39:55

with people that may be different than you, there are some people that seem to be

39:55

discouraging that.

40:01

And I don't think they fully appreciate all the benefits of being exposed to somebody who

40:01

may be a little different than you.

40:09

I mean, what is America all about?

40:11

We have the great melting pot, right?

40:13

Isn't that the way our country is described?

40:16

And because we embrace people from different walks of life and people who may have

40:16

different backgrounds.

40:22

and be different than us in other ways.

40:25

And I think once we embrace it, rather than push it away, they find that it benefits us in

40:25

so many different ways.

40:33

Let me just add, Travis, that in the district attorney's office, when you leave your job,

40:33

they'd have you go through what they call an exit interview, where you tell the person

40:43

personnel what you like best about the job and what you felt could be improved.

40:49

And I was

40:51

very happy to hear that on many occasions, some of my colleagues in the DA's office when

40:51

they left told the person interviewing them that one of the best parts of their job was

41:01

meeting, working with, and getting to know me.

41:04

And I'm not saying that to boast or brag.

41:07

I know they weren't specifically talking about Ken Cuncan.

41:11

They were talking about meeting and getting to know someone who had a severe physical

41:11

disability.

41:17

Because unless they had a close relative with a disability,

41:20

They rarely came in contact with someone who was so disabled in many ways.

41:29

And for them, that was one of the best parts of their job.

41:32

They found that not only did they learn a lot by having the experience of being exposed to

41:32

somebody who was different than them physically, but it helped inspire and motivate them

41:45

to do a better job.

41:47

And I think the more people meet

41:50

somebody with a disability, whether it be physical or intellectual or emotional, a mental

41:50

health disability as well.

41:58

And they see how hard people with different disabilities and different issues that they

41:58

have to face work to overcome them.

42:07

I think that inspires everyone to do more with what opportunities they've been given.

42:14

And I think it's so important for people to embrace that opportunity.

42:18

when you have it and not to discourage DEI, but to embrace and encourage it.

42:25

I might add that I was fortunate that while I worked at the district attorney's office,

42:25

the court officers decided to give me an award as the outstanding assistant district

42:36

attorney one year.

42:38

And they gave me that award because they were recognizing the effect it had on them and

42:38

other court personnel.

42:45

to have someone working alongside them who had a severe physical disability.

42:51

And two years ago, the current district attorney, a woman by the name of Ann Donnelly, Ann

42:51

Donnelly established an annual award in the district attorney's office.

43:02

It's the only award they give on an annual basis that she named the Kenneth J.

43:07

Comken Award.

43:08

They named it after me to...

43:11

recognized the outstanding assistant district attorney each year who best demonstrated the

43:11

work ethic, had the respect of his or her colleagues and the loyalty and devotion to the

43:24

office as the man in the wheelchair.

43:28

Right?

43:30

They wanted to recognize that and I'm so proud that they find this to be a positive to

43:30

work with somebody who m

43:39

has either the physical, intellectual, or emotional disability that helps others around

43:39

them do more in their job or at a school setting than most people seem to know actually

43:54

happens if they're not exposed to that person.

43:59

That's so cool.

43:59

I love hearing that you inspired so many people to think differently and push themselves.

44:07

I remember back when I was in eighth grade, I got chosen to kind of be an aide for this

44:07

sixth grader who was in a wheelchair for something he was born with.

44:20

I can't exactly remember what it was.

44:22

But I still to this day remember how he inspired me to be a better person as well.

44:32

And one, I'm glad to hear it, but two, I'm not surprised to hear it.

44:38

I think that's so many people's reaction.

44:40

And to give more people the opportunity to come in contact in any way, shape or form with

44:40

somebody who's different than they are is a good thing.

44:51

And it helps so many people.

44:54

Yeah, for sure.

44:56

I really admire just your ability to inspire people and your resilience.

45:05

I have kind of just two basic follow-up questions here.

45:11

You mentioned your website.

45:13

Is there anywhere else that people can find you?

45:16

Well, the website is kenkunken.com.

45:20

They could also email me at ken.kunken at gmail.com.

45:27

They can go on my website.

45:31

My wife has me on Facebook.

45:35

And if they Google me, they'll see that there are a number of articles about either things

45:35

that I have done or will be doing that.

45:47

would be another way that they can keep in touch with.

45:51

So thank you.

45:52

And I can put all those links in show notes as well.

45:55

And last thing is, is there anything that we have not discussed that you would like to

45:55

bring up?

46:04

Well, as I indicated before, it's so important to keep your expectations high for somebody

46:04

who may be a little different than that, whether it be a physical disability, a mental or

46:16

intellectual disability.

46:18

And it's important to keep your expectations high because people's performance often rises

46:18

and falls based upon what others expect of them.

46:28

So it's so important to keep those expectations high for others as well as for yourself.

46:33

But I also think that helping others is such an important aspect of everyone's lives.

46:40

I can't emphasize enough how much it helped me when I was in a position where I could

46:40

finally give back and help others.

46:48

And others have said the same thing.

46:50

It makes them feel better about themselves, better about their community and the people

46:50

they come in contact with.

46:56

And I think it inspires us all when they see that we work together as a group.

47:03

to help other individuals so that we all achieve.

47:08

I love it.

47:08

Thank you so much for coming on the show today, You're an inspiration to me and to many

47:08

others.

47:16

I really admire your resilience and your ability to overcome and face any challenges

47:16

that's throwing your direction.

47:25

Thank you, Travis.

47:27

I appreciate it.

47:28

And I just would like to say one more time, I had a lot of help to be able to do what I've

47:28

been able to do.

47:35

For that, I'll always be grateful.

47:37

But I think the people that have offered me that help will say that it has helped them as

47:37

well to be in a position where they could give of themselves and help somebody else do

47:49

more with their lives.

47:51

It helps everyone when you do.

47:55

Thanks again and thank you to the listeners.

47:58

Thanks for joining in on this episode.

48:00

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48:04

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48:06

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48:06

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48:23

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48:25

Thanks again.

48:26

Until next time.