Losing a Son to Addiction, Grief, and Learning to Keep Living | Katie Rizzo

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Addiction doesn't just affect the person

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struggling.

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It changes an entire family. Today I'm

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joined by Katie Rizzo,

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who shares the story of losing her son,

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Nicholas, to an accidental overdose and

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the journey of learning to live with grief

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instead of trying to escape it.

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We talk about addiction, shame,

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mental health, and why healing isn't about

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getting over it.

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This conversation is incredibly honest,

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and I'm grateful Katie trusted us with her

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story.

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Here's my conversation with Katie Rizzo.

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Welcome to Overcome.

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With Travis White. And please take a few

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seconds and leave us a five-star review

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on whatever podcast platform you may be

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listening on.

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It really helps us out.

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Right, Katie, why don't you start us off

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by telling us about your journey?

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Thanks for having me on. Well,

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~ so my name's Katie Rizzo

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and I the reason that I'm on this

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on Overcome is because I had what I

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thought was a really perfect life.

1:01

Like we had three kids. ~ I had a great

1:01

job here teaching in the public school.

1:07

I taught AP bio and honors anatomy.

1:11

~

1:13

Just life was good. My eldest son took

1:13

both of the classes that

1:19

I taught in high school. ~ my other two

1:19

that came through the high school,

1:24

~ they weren't as excited to have their

1:24

mom as a teacher.

1:28

Things were really going well.

1:30

And ~ our older son, Nicholas,

1:33

he played soccer and he had a lot of

1:33

injuries.

1:37

He ended up getting a lot of painkillers

1:37

for those injuries.

1:43

And ~ he became addicted to pills.

1:46

He went on to go to college ~ and

1:51

he played D2 soccer. There he had more

1:51

injuries and he had a lot of anxiety.

1:58

He ended up coming home, graduating,

2:01

and ~ he had a pretty raging addiction to

2:01

pills.

2:07

We struggled with it for a little while.

2:10

My husband and I both joined Al Anon,

2:12

which is a support group for people who

2:12

love somebody with addiction,

2:16

which you probably already know.

2:17

It's a great group. and it may have saved

2:17

our lives,

2:23

but it didn't save Nicholas's.

2:25

And ~ two years ago he accidentally ~

2:25

overdosed.

2:30

And ~ that kind of led me into like a

2:30

pretty big traumatic grief.

2:37

and

2:39

Unbeknownst to me, journaling really is

2:39

good.

2:43

I'd never journaled before, and the day

2:43

that it happened,

2:47

I just started writing things down just

2:47

because I I couldn't believe this

2:51

was our reality. ~ I kept thinking,

2:54

like, maybe if I write something down,

2:56

I'll be able to understand. But ~ but

2:56

journaling journaling actually saved

3:01

my life a little bit. And ~ around nine

3:01

months

3:08

in, I started

3:09

like trying to look at the framework of

3:09

like wha what's been going on.

3:13

and I realized that a a lot of what I was

3:13

dealing with was it felt like almost

3:20

pregnancy and it felt almost poetic that

3:20

this love that I had for my

3:25

son for twenty five years, ~ that he and I

3:25

had created this new thing called grief

3:31

and I had carried it for for nine months.

3:34

~ and up around that time I ~ listened to

3:34

this

3:38

artist, his name's Nick Cave. He lost two

3:38

sons to suicide.

3:43

~ and he talked about asking grief to

3:43

leave his body.

3:47

And so I did that. And since then I've

3:47

kind of had this grief orangutan

3:54

who I have to take care of now.

3:57

~ and I ended up writing a book about kind

3:57

of my experience.

4:02

It's my memoir about kind of what I went

4:02

through and how I'm surviving.

4:09

That's kind of how I got here.

4:12

Well, I first of all I'm sorry to hear

4:12

about your son.

4:15

Second of all, I love that you've written

4:15

a book because I have always felt that

4:21

it's important for everybody to share

4:21

their stories.

4:23

'Cause it's honestly it just takes that

4:23

one person to read it and say,

4:27

you know what, you changed my life because

4:27

of what you went through.

4:30

And I can I I it it a lot of times I feel

4:30

like people

4:36

can understand themselves better because

4:36

of somebody like you going

4:39

out and writing a book.

4:42

Hope that is one of my hopes. And the

4:42

other one is that there was

4:46

so much shame around the addiction.

4:49

~ and that shame kind of went kept going

4:49

through

4:56

~ the grief too. And right after Nicholas

4:56

passed away,

5:02

I started on the internet searching like,

5:06

how do people live through this,

5:07

right? Like, ~ or is there

5:10

a crack in the code, like is there a way

5:10

to visit somebody who's dead?

5:13

And I f I stumbled upon a bunch of grief

5:13

groups and I started

5:20

my husband and I started going to them

5:20

just because this was life or death

5:23

for us and for our other two kids,

5:26

right? Like how do you well I didn't know

5:26

anybody who had lost a kid to addiction.

5:32

And the year Nicholas died, ~ eighty

5:32

thousand kids in

5:38

the US ~ overdosed.

5:40

Which is equal to one commercial jet l

5:40

airliner going down every day.

5:44

~ so I've met a lot of people who are

5:44

kinda hiding in the shadows,

5:50

who have a lot of guilt, who feel like

5:50

they're not

5:57

ready yet or able maybe to talk about it.

6:01

I've met some people who are able and who

6:01

really have changed my life

6:05

and being able to hear mom say,

6:08

~ people who are addicted come from

6:08

families that love them.

6:12

Like that was just so wonderful to hear.

6:15

Mm-hmm.

6:16

And watching other people who have

6:16

survived this ~

6:21

has really kind of saved my life and and

6:21

made me want to kind of

6:27

Reach my hand out to other people who have

6:27

gone through this.

6:30

Yeah, that's and that's how it seems to be

6:30

'cause it's like it while you're going

6:33

through these trials or challenges in

6:33

life,

6:37

I feel like there's often times you feel

6:37

so alone.

6:41

Yeah, yeah.

6:43

But I do have a question before we get

6:43

into some of the stuff about,

6:48

you know, like loss and ~ mental health

6:48

stuff,

6:52

I'd love for you to tell us about your

6:52

son.

6:55

Who was he beyond his addiction?

6:57

Hmm. Well, Nicholas had blonde hair and it

6:57

was really straight

7:03

and I can just picture him running on the

7:03

soccer field.

7:08

He just looked like a dandelion because it

7:08

was just always crazy.

7:12

And he was a kid who was really

7:12

comfortable on the soccer field.

7:18

He loved his friends. If he scored and his

7:18

friends would like circle around him,

7:23

you could just see his face would just

7:23

light up.

7:27

~ for a long time he was very socially

7:27

like had a lot of anxiety.

7:36

W in high school he got prom king and he

7:36

came home and was like,

7:41

This is the worst day of my life.

7:43

This was a joke. Like, I'm so embarrassed,

7:46

right? And you're like, No, kid,

7:48

like people love you. ~ I don't know what

7:48

it was about him,

7:54

but he just he couldn't believe that he

7:54

was worth l love and belonging

8:00

in his classes and

8:02

I don't know. I he's somebody who really

8:02

needed somebody to shake him and say,

8:06

no, this is real. You you are appreciated.

8:10

~ he when he went to college,

8:15

I drove him to s ~ Colorado Mesa

8:15

University in Grand Junction.

8:19

And when we were driving,

8:22

he was like, I don't think I can do this.

8:24

I don't think I can leave home.

8:25

I don't think I can be with new people.

8:28

I and I wasn't sure he had the skills

8:28

either.

8:31

And I

8:32

I kept saying, he know, let's just give it

8:32

one day.

8:36

~ we drove there from Arizona,

8:39

so it was about a t a ten hour drive,

8:40

and the whole time he was just almost sick

8:40

to his stomach.

8:44

And I almost I kept thinking, should I

8:44

just tell him you're right,

8:48

forget it? But I mean he had a team.

8:50

I kept thinking, like, you know,

8:51

he can do this. And we pulled into his

8:51

dorm.

8:55

~ and for some reason at Colorado Mesa

8:55

they had all these ~

9:00

football players that were helping and

9:00

they'd bring all your stuff up

9:04

to your room and Nicholas was just like

9:04

looked at me like,

9:06

my God, this is the worst day of my life.

9:07

Ha ha ha.

9:10

And they, you know, brought his stuff in

9:10

and brought him into this room

9:15

and there was a a boy there. His name is

9:15

Jacob.

9:17

And Jacob was on Nicholas's soccer team.

9:19

And Nicholas looked at Jacob and Jacob

9:19

looked at Nicholas and I swear like they

9:25

have known each other from a past life if

9:25

there was such a thing.

9:28

Like the two of them were like

9:30

I yeah, I am gonna be okay. And that

9:30

night,

9:33

you know, we went out to dinner with Jacob

9:33

and Nicholas said,

9:36

I feel like I've been here forever.

9:38

Like I know I I I am gonna be fine and he

9:38

was.

9:41

so he's somebody who really needed close

9:41

friends,

9:45

~ and he saw himself through other

9:45

people's eyes,

9:48

I think.

9:51

It's really cool. And it and I I love that

9:51

he found his thing in life because

9:52

Yeah.

9:56

I feel like some of that t sometimes that

9:56

doesn't come until later.

9:59

You don't always find it at a young age.

10:00

Yeah.

10:02

Yeah. No, that is true. It's really

10:02

beautiful.

10:05

Yeah.

10:07

What do you wish people let me rephrase

10:07

this in my it sounded better in my head,

10:13

but then it started coming out.

10:13

Yeah.

10:14

I was like, No.

10:17

What do you what do you wish people

10:17

understood about ~ substance abuse

10:22

and the people who struggle with it?

10:25

Gosh, so much. How much time do we have?

10:28

We'll be here for days. ~ I feel like

10:28

there is a contingent of society that

10:30

He's

10:35

like people who have addiction are almost

10:35

dirty

10:41

or disgusting. Like sometimes people will

10:41

say to me,

10:44

~ your son didn't die of of street drugs,

10:48

so ~ you know, he he's not one of them or

10:48

he

10:53

became addicted because a doctor

10:53

prescribed them.

10:55

So he's not like, you know, those other

10:55

people or

11:01

Somebody was really surprised that

11:01

Nicholas didn't didn't die of fentanyl.

11:06

And they're like, ~ well, he wasn't one of

11:06

those people.

11:10

I it just this this underlying tone that

11:10

that people who

11:16

are addicted to something are ~ less than

11:16

other people.

11:20

And number one, that's wrong.

11:23

Like Nicholas was a beautiful soul.

11:25

And number two

11:29

It's just so ignorant. Like the reason

11:29

that I think people reach out

11:33

to drugs and alcohol is because they're

11:33

uncomfortable in their body

11:37

and that drug gives them this magical

11:37

feeling that

11:44

th they pretty much never find again,

11:46

but they're always searching for it.

11:49

I watched my son, who loved his family and

11:49

who loved the opinions of other people,

11:56

become a person who was very unlikable to

11:56

his family and to other people.

12:02

I mean, he stole and he got into

12:02

accidents,

12:04

and there was just chaos all around him.

12:07

The the drug wasn't him,

12:11

and and it made him do things that were n

12:11

not aligned with his values.

12:20

And also I think people think that people

12:20

who are addicted can just one

12:25

day get up and just use willpower.

12:27

And I watched Nicholas, and if willpower

12:27

were enough,

12:33

he would have been sober. He wanted it

12:33

really bad.

12:36

He went through

12:39

a lot of times telling us like this is the

12:39

the last time like I'm gonna come clean.

12:43

Please don't, you know, please don't give

12:43

up on me.

12:46

He he just really wanted to to have a

12:46

different kind of life than he had.

12:53

Yeah, and his as his as he was going

12:53

through this addiction,

12:57

could you see the relationship with him

12:57

and yourself like changing?

13:02

~ sure. ~

13:08

Alan has three C's. You didn't cause it,

13:10

you can't cure it, and you can't control

13:10

it.

13:15

For a long time I thought I could do all

13:15

those those things.

13:18

So a lot of times I would try to give him

13:18

suggestions.

13:22

I mean, my husband and I, we both went to

13:22

Yale.

13:26

We both have graduate degrees.

13:27

We both were like, we are gonna logic our

13:27

way through this.

13:32

I don't know that I don't I don't know

13:32

that.

13:39

that words are gonna would are gonna help

13:39

an a person who's addicted.

13:43

I feel like the one thing that could have

13:43

helped Nicholas is if he would have

13:46

had a group of people his age who were

13:46

sober,

13:51

who had invested them in him and had taken

13:51

him under their wings.

13:58

And I I saying that I don't know that that

13:58

would even even have helped

14:04

Yeah, it's it's hard. I've seen friends of

14:04

mine go through addiction problems

14:09

and I actually there's this kid I went to

14:09

high school with and not till

14:14

I think it was only about a year and a

14:14

half ago,

14:16

maybe, and I heard of an accident o

14:16

overdose.

14:19

His were ~ they weren't ~ prescription

14:19

pills,

14:21

Yeah.

14:24

I don't think, but still it doesn't it

14:24

doesn't matter.

14:25

Does that make no yeah. Yeah.

14:26

It's still it's still like substance abuse

14:26

and it's it just like

14:32

I remember hearing that and it just broke

14:32

me and I was like I and this

14:36

he wasn't necessarily a friend,

14:37

he's more of an acquaintance. I knew him

14:37

in high school,

14:39

hung out with some of the f same groups of

14:39

friends,

14:41

but it still hurts to hear when somebody

14:41

you know passes away that like that way.

14:47

Yeah, and

14:48

I don't know I don't know that there's a

14:48

one way to treat people

14:53

who are ~ struggling with addiction.

14:55

Like we n my husband and I tried,

14:59

you know, tough love, we tried having him

14:59

live with us,

15:01

we tried, you know, drug testing them all

15:01

the time.

15:05

~ we took him to inpatient rehabs,

15:10

we took him to outpatient rehabs.

15:12

I'm not saying it's not solvable,

15:15

but

15:16

I don't know. There is an element of a

15:16

community that we we I think

15:23

we would have we would have benefited

15:23

from.

15:26

~ I don't know.

15:29

I I think a l people like to pretend that

15:29

it's like,

15:34

it's a family problem, let them take care

15:34

of it.

15:38

And I think it leads to a lot of isolation

15:38

and I think a lot of I th I just think

15:43

a lot of people are struggling behind

15:43

closed doors.

15:47

I I agree with that and I like what you

15:47

said about

15:50

~ it's it's not a one size fits all.

15:55

It's I I believe addiction and mental

15:55

health are so closely related that

15:56

Yeah.

16:02

way 'cause different things work for

16:02

different people.

16:06

Yeah. Okay, for you a hundred percent.

16:10

Yep.

16:11

So someone listening right now,

16:14

~ who may have a loved one that's

16:14

struggling with substance abuse,

16:19

what words of advice or what would you

16:19

tell them?

16:26

Well, I would tell them to to Al and I'm

16:26

that ~ you know,

16:31

you didn't cause it, you can't cure it,

16:33

you can't control it. I would remind them

16:33

that alcoholism

16:39

is a family disease or addiction is a

16:39

family disease and that people tend

16:43

to in in families that are struggling,

16:49

they tend to isolate. We tend to try to

16:49

solve things on our own.

16:54

~

16:56

it becomes a really lonely, chaotic place.

16:58

I mean, there was a time where Nicholas

16:58

was stealing from us and ~ his

17:03

car was in the shop and my husband and I

17:03

were just like bickering with

17:08

one another incessantly because ~ you know

17:08

it it's it it feels like

17:14

an you're up against a dragon and and

17:14

there's just not enough help out there.

17:22

So I would tell that person,

17:25

keep fighting, try Al Anon.

17:29

I think one of my friends set talks about

17:29

her son

17:33

and says that she just kept trying to keep

17:33

him alive,

17:38

whatever that meant, like maybe not giving

17:38

him money,

17:42

but making sure he had food. ~ there's

17:42

just such a weird

17:49

belief we have that people have to hit

17:49

their bottom and the bottom

17:53

is so different from everybody.

17:55

And what if their bottom is death?

17:56

So there's so much judgment on people.

17:57

Mm-hmm.

17:59

So I would try to tell them to give

17:59

yourself some grace.

18:02

Don't feel like don't feel like there's

18:02

one answer

18:07

and to go with your gut.

18:10

And as long as you're doing the best you

18:10

can for you and to try to keep your your

18:15

person alive, I think that's the best you

18:15

can do.

18:20

And you you mentioned a lot that your or a

18:20

little bit in there that your friend

18:24

~ felt like they had to keep their son

18:24

alive.

18:27

Did you ever get to that point where you

18:27

you were thinking that in the back

18:30

definitely.

18:31

of your mind?

18:32

Definitely. Like ~ we were doing like we

18:32

were bartering with Nicholas

18:38

for money for go for going to rehab.

18:42

Like we'd say we'll pay for your rent if

18:42

you do rehab and

18:47

I at one point was paying for his

18:47

groceries and I was worried that

18:52

he was spending the money on drugs

18:52

instead.

18:54

So I'd make him like send me a picture of

18:54

of him at the grocery store with

19:00

his ~ with his receipt and then I would

19:00

send the money.

19:04

I we we would pay for him to have gas to

19:04

go to to work

19:11

and I'd say, you know, I want to see a

19:11

copy of the receipt.

19:16

so yeah, I think people who are dealing

19:16

with addiction,

19:20

I mean it's it addiction is a life or

19:20

death disease and everybody around them

19:26

you know, trying to keep their their kid

19:26

alive and I I've

19:32

I met this family who the dad was trying

19:32

tough love and I hope it worked.

19:37

~ his son

19:39

was in a halfway house and he had been

19:39

robbed and he called and said,

19:43

You know, I have no money and we all have

19:43

to leave the halfway house because

19:47

if I guess there's too much drama or

19:47

whatever and he's like,

19:49

I've been living on the streets,

19:51

you know, and he said, Could I have some

19:51

money for bus fare?

19:54

And the dad was like, I couldn't trust

19:54

that the money was going to bus fare.

19:59

So I said, No. And it just like,

20:02

Really? That's the poor guy, like no

20:02

matter

20:08

It feels like it's a lose lose situation

20:08

somewhere.

20:12

Yeah. You just reminded me of a a personal

20:12

story of of mine that so

20:17

I was really close to this person.

20:20

I was really good friends with him in like

20:20

middle school in the first maybe year

20:23

of high school. And we just got into

20:23

different crowds.

20:26

But long story short, I've been out of

20:26

high school for years and probably it's

20:30

Mm-hmm.

20:32

it was probably about five to six years

20:32

ago,

20:36

I think.

20:37

I had reached out to this person,

20:39

I found him on Facebook or somewhere on

20:39

social media,

20:42

and I said, Hey, how are you doing?

20:43

Just wanted to catch up. And all of a

20:43

sudden and I knew he had an addiction

20:48

And all of a sudden he started asking me

20:48

for money.

20:52

I was like, Whoa, like I haven't talked to

20:52

you for like ten years.

20:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

20:57

And I have a family to feed, and he said,

21:00

Well, I'm stuck in this place.

21:01

And I said, Well, I'm sorry. Like,

21:03

I can't do it. And it's like

21:07

Even in in that time it's like,

21:09

do I feel guilty for this? But I I I still

21:09

can't tell an answer to that,

21:16

but it's like I don't know you well enough

21:16

and I'm sorry for whatever you're going

21:20

through.

21:26

It's just a hard situation.

21:29

Completely. And w what if our rehabs

21:29

worked,

21:34

we could say like, no, this these are the

21:34

steps to getting somebody sober,

21:38

right? ~ for the pills that Nicholas were

21:38

was on

21:43

for the for the opioids there and the

21:43

benzodiazepines,

21:48

there's a 70 to 80 percent or 70 to 90

21:48

percent relapse rate.

21:52

And

21:55

I don't to me, you know, we've spent all

21:55

this money,

21:57

sixty thousand dollars at a time,

22:00

for, you know, ~ at maybe a ten to thirty

22:00

percent chance of him getting better.

22:07

There isn't one path that's gonna be like

22:07

this is how you do it,

22:11

you know, kids who are are treated with

22:11

tough love dye,

22:16

too, kids who are giving way too much dye.

22:18

It almost feels like ~ we just don't know

22:18

what we're doing with addiction

22:24

yet and what the right answers are.

22:28

Yeah, for sure. And I I think that's and I

22:28

don't I don't know where

22:33

it goes from there because what what do

22:33

you do?

22:37

I I feel like I don't know, that's I could

22:37

we could go off on a whole other thing

22:42

on that. But this this question is

22:42

probably gonna be one of the hardest I've

22:42

Yeah.

22:48

asked on here. So just bear with me.

22:50

~ can you take us back to the day you lost

22:50

your son?

22:50

Okay.

22:54

Like did it just feel like a normal day or

22:58

What do you remember about it?

23:00

~ well the day that we lost him,

23:05

~ he was gonna come over for dinner.

23:09

He had called and the last thing we'd

23:09

talked about is it was Sunday and

23:14

he was gonna come over for dinner.

23:15

we'd my husband and I had just come back

23:15

from vacation and we weren't

23:22

We really questioned whether or not we

23:22

should go on vacation,

23:25

but there was so much turmoil always with

23:25

the addiction and with

23:31

he had been an inpatient and outpatient

23:31

that we decided,

23:35

you know, if we're gonna wait to go on

23:35

vacation until things are gonna be good,

23:38

we're always gonna wait to go on vacation.

23:41

So we had we'd just gotten home from

23:41

vacation and he had called and ~ he had

23:47

Yeah, I'd like to come over for dinner and

23:47

I was like,

23:49

Yeah

23:50

you know, we'd love to have you.

23:51

I had a little ~ hesitation because I

23:51

wanted to say,

23:57

but don't come over high, but I didn't say

23:57

that.

24:00

And I I hope you didn't hear the

24:00

hesitation in my voice.

24:03

~ and we both hung up saying,

24:06

I love you, love you. ~ I wish I would

24:06

have said I love you like seven thousand

24:11

times instead of just once. and he didn't

24:11

show up.

24:17

~

24:20

A day past two days we are calling,

24:23

we called the rehab. ~ he was an

24:23

outpatient then,

24:27

and the rehab couldn't tell us whether or

24:27

not he was going to the rehab.

24:30

And ~ they said because of HIPAA,

24:34

which whatever. ~ and finally ~ I called

24:40

the police and asked for a well person

24:40

check.

24:43

And ~ the officer

24:48

called from Nicholas's apartment and said,

24:50

Don't worry, there's nothing smelly under

24:50

the door.

24:53

and then they'd broken in,

24:58

and they found him.

25:01

I ~

25:07

They didn't call me back. So after a few

25:07

hours of me calling and them

25:12

not calling me back, ~ my husband went and

25:12

~

25:17

he found them all standing around him.

25:20

So that's how we found out.

25:32

Whoa, that's tough to hear.

25:36

Yeah. You might want to cut it out.

25:38

I wouldn't I wasn't there.

25:38

Yeah.

25:42

Mm.

25:42

I well I just I thank you for answering

25:42

that 'cause I was like hope

25:46

What's weird

25:47

though is like people who have lost their

25:47

kids,

25:50

like that's something like we sometimes we

25:50

really want to talk about it.

25:54

One of my friends in one of my support

25:54

groups,

25:57

this really you should cut this out too.

26:00

She texted me and said, Hey, I just s was

26:00

looking at a picture of my

26:05

son in the morgue and she's like,

26:08

I want you to see I am. And it's like

26:08

which of course I was like,

26:12

okay, but it's like

26:16

It almost n you n you want to to show

26:16

other people like this really happened.

26:21

Like it's almost like it's not it's not

26:21

it's impossible.

26:25

And so sometimes talking about it is

26:25

almost helpful because you're like,

26:31

Yeah, that like it's it's gonna anchor you

26:31

in reality rather than living pretending

26:37

something else happened.

26:38

Yeah, and and to be honest, your story and

26:38

what you just said,

26:42

I love the rawness of it. I absolutely

26:42

love

26:46

It's not great. The honesty.

26:48

I No, I'm not saying it's great.

26:50

Like I I love like the how open and honest

26:50

you are about it because I think

26:55

th I think this is reality. I think this

26:55

is where we live.

26:58

Like and there's a lot of times where and

26:58

that's and that's that is

27:01

yeah. Yeah.

27:04

the only reason why I asked that question.

27:05

It's

27:07

So I appreciate you being open and raw and

27:07

honest,

27:10

even though it's not the easiest thing.

27:10

Well it's not yeah,

27:12

and it's not what you see in Instagram,

27:14

right? And that's what and that was part

27:14

of what was keeping

27:14

Yeah, no.

27:19

us not being honest about Nicholas's

27:19

addiction with the world was

27:24

the like wanting to have this perfect

27:24

facade of like,

27:27

we have three kids and they're all

27:27

athletic and they all are going

27:30

to college and everything is great and

27:33

When in reality, you know, we had one kid

27:33

who was really struggling

27:37

and it was tearing us all apart.

27:39

And maybe things would have been a little

27:39

bit better if we could have told

27:44

the world, like, no, things are not good.

27:47

~

27:48

and that just goes back to I've talked

27:48

about this a little bit on the show,

27:52

is you never know what people next to you

27:52

are going through.

27:59

Like ever, ever. And I I've I've had to

27:59

learn to that it's it's caused

28:05

me to be less judgmental towards people.

28:08

Yeah, that's true.

28:11

So only with your permission, I'd still

28:11

love to keep that piece in there because

28:14

I I like I like that you're being

28:14

No, you can. It's yeah, I didn't

28:21

open and real. Like it's it takes a lot to

28:21

be that vulnerable.

28:25

and

28:30

do you find you said like people who've

28:30

lost somebody,

28:35

you know, like to talk about it.

28:37

Do you find it gets easier as time goes,

28:39

or is it still always kind of

28:41

Hard to talk about.

28:44

Honestly, the minute this happened,

28:48

I was like, Okay, we've gotta figure out

28:48

how to not get eaten up by this.

28:53

Cause I mean, it could eat you up.

28:56

And we've been in support groups with

28:56

people who haven't told anybody that their

29:01

kid passed away and it's been a few years

29:01

because they're like not in denial,

29:07

but they just are so ashamed. ~

29:10

So Nick and I, that's my husband's name.

29:12

We joined a ton of support groups.

29:14

We've read a ton of grief books.

29:17

~ we made a commitment to do everything

29:17

the grief books suggested.

29:21

~ one of the grief books, ~ Colin

29:21

Campbell's Finding the Words,

29:26

it's a great book. He talks about saying

29:26

yes and that you need community.

29:31

And so Nick and I, you know, when anybody

29:31

came over and was like,

29:34

Do you want to? We always said yes,

29:36

even though

29:38

Our first instinct was, no, I absolutely

29:38

do not want to go do that.

29:43

~ because community is really important

29:43

and it's the one thing that's really

29:49

~ kept us afloat. ~ the other thing was

29:49

exercise.

29:55

Like people said ~ on the books,

29:57

like you gotta exercise. And so the two of

29:57

us have been exercising every day.

30:01

That's not negotiable. ~ in our grief

30:01

group,

30:06

Lit, they talk about

30:08

~ one of the grief counselor talks about

30:08

you need to metabolize grief

30:13

and so exercising helps with that and it's

30:13

a hundred percent true.

30:17

my journaling ~ helped a lot and

30:25

I I feel like we got to a place where it

30:25

just it

30:30

was like so bad that

30:34

we knew that we had to take control of it.

30:38

So your question was about like,

30:40

does it get better? I think it depends on

30:40

you.

30:43

And for the two of us, I think it's gotten

30:43

not better,

30:49

but we live within the realm of this new

30:49

thing called grief.

30:55

And a lot of it's because we really focus

30:55

on it.

30:58

Also, I got a therapist and I have to say

30:58

she's the best.

31:01

And ~ EMDR, do you know what that is?

31:04

~ Yeah. Yeah.

31:05

Is the the eye movement yeah,

31:07

Trauma. Yeah. It's been extremely helpful

31:07

to me.

31:08

yeah.

31:12

~ I don't know. I think I I it would be a

31:12

basket case,

31:17

I think, if I didn't have her and that.

31:19

~ so

31:21

I don't know if it gets if it gets better,

31:24

but I think you have to really we've had

31:24

to really work at at making things kind

31:31

of fall into place.

31:34

And that makes sense. And I feel like what

31:34

you're explaining is you

31:39

at some point you realize that in order to

31:39

surv survive your loss

31:43

you had to basically change your way of

31:43

thinking.

31:46

Everything. Yeah. Yeah.

31:51

Yeah, it's

31:56

See. I tried to f go ahead.

31:56

I don't have you

31:58

have you heard Billy Bob Thornton lost his

31:58

brother and he said at any

32:03

one point in time he's gonna be fifty

32:03

percent sad and fifty percent happy.

32:07

And I think that was really freeing for

32:07

Nick and I.

32:10

It it was for me, because I kept trying to

32:10

get back to like how we were before,

32:16

but you're never gonna get back to that,

32:17

Yeah.

32:18

right? And I also kept trying to find like

32:18

how is it that I'm gonna be happy again?

32:23

And maybe the answer is

32:25

you're not ever gonna be that happy again.

32:27

You're gonna live with this new reality.

32:30

And that new reality is that this kid that

32:30

you loved and who

32:35

for twenty-five years was a really big

32:35

deal in your world is gone.

32:40

And so why would you expect it to be

32:40

anything but kind

32:45

of terrible for a long time and you're

32:45

gonna have to make joy where you can find

32:48

Mm-hmm.

32:53

Yeah, and I'm I'm actually really happy

32:53

that you've been able to find some things

32:58

to help you out along this road.

33:02

Yeah.

33:03

Ca

33:03

'cause I I feel like that's not even

33:03

always easy to do.

33:09

Yeah. Journaling helped a lot.

33:12

I started when I was journaling,

33:14

I still am journaling every day,

33:16

but I started feeling more connected to to

33:16

Nicholas and ~ Nick Cabe,

33:22

who I re I brought up before, he talks

33:22

about that you kind of need

33:26

to have a continual connection to somebody

33:26

who's gone.

33:29

And I've been journaling and then those

33:29

journaling turned into writing poems,

33:34

~ which really is just journaling.

33:41

So yeah.

33:43

Yeah. You you mentioned ~ at the very

33:43

beginning,

33:46

this is goes back to your writing,

33:49

I believe. Well maybe it wasn't your

33:49

writing.

33:51

Maybe it is. I can't remember.

33:53

My brain is off, but nope,

33:55

And my dog's coming in. Okay.

33:56

you're good. ~ I believe you mentioned

33:56

your memoir centers around

34:01

the idea that grief mirrors pregnancy.

34:04

Where did that realisation come from?

34:08

Well, that was for my journal.

34:11

When I started writing, I started feeling

34:11

like describing what my body felt like.

34:17

I felt like I was pregnant again.

34:19

I the first trimester where you're

34:19

nauseous,

34:22

you can't eat. ~ you know,

34:25

everybody says like, you have the glow of

34:25

pregnancy.

34:28

Well, the first trimester I I was green.

34:31

And I when we experienced when I started

34:38

off with grief, I was green with grief and

34:38

I started feeling like I

34:42

was growing this thing called grief.

34:44

And grief is half me and half Nicholas,

34:46

just like the placenta was. And there was

34:46

a period of time,

34:51

then the second trimester where I

34:51

everybody else was moving

34:57

on and going on with their lives.

34:59

And I just felt like the grief was growing

34:59

within me and I couldn't move on.

35:06

And

35:07

I just like would lay in bed and and

35:07

journal and feel pretty sorry

35:14

for myself. ~ and then there was a period

35:14

where I realized I wanted everyone

35:18

to know, and that was like my showing.

35:20

And I told everyone, ~ I still do.

35:24

~ it's funny if somebody would say to us

35:24

like,

35:29

how many kids do you have? My husband

35:29

always like steps back.

35:33

He's like, I'll let you handle this.

35:35

And

35:36

Because I'll tell you, I want people to

35:36

know that there is a big,

35:41

beautiful life that isn't here anymore and

35:41

people should know about him.

35:46

~ and then I told I said,

35:50

you know, I read that thing about from

35:50

Nick Cave about asking grief

35:54

to leave your body. And I did and it it

35:54

actually is pretty effective to

36:02

not have it just sit inside of you and but

36:02

to think of it as a its own entity,

36:08

right? And my griefs I think of him as

36:08

like a little orangutan.

36:13

And some days he's very peaceful and other

36:13

days he's a terror and ~

36:21

I it it I think having a framework to kind

36:21

of think about this thing called grief

36:28

is been really helpful to me because our

36:28

society is really grief illiterate.

36:33

~ I can't tell you how many people,

36:35

even my own family who means very well,

36:38

have said, like, when are you gonna get

36:38

over this?

36:41

Or when when are you gonna get back to

36:41

doing,

36:44

you know, how you used to be? Or my dad

36:44

said,

36:47

It seems like you're never gonna be happy

36:47

again and

36:52

Like you're right. This when Nicholas

36:52

comes back things are gonna get better,

36:57

but and barring that, like we're gonna

36:57

have to live in what what's real

37:03

in the here and now.

37:04

Yeah, yeah, and I I feel like that's that

37:04

I I feel like that would be

37:08

the me like five years ago as being that

37:08

person.

37:14

But doing this is like no, you don't just

37:14

get over stuff.

37:17

You have to the I guess the way I'm gonna

37:17

relate it back to me for a second.

37:18

Yeah.

37:24

Nothing. No, leave me.

37:24

I'm not trying to make this about me.

37:25

I just wanna relate it back to so when I

37:25

first started therapy,

37:29

I was going for depression and and

37:29

anxiety.

37:34

And when I went in, I thought,

37:36

okay, well, just tell me what I have to do

37:36

to get over this,

37:39

to get through this. And my therapist sat

37:39

me down,

37:41

he's like, looks me in the face and in the

37:41

eyes,

37:44

and he's like, Travis, you do not do not

37:44

get over this.

37:48

You learn techniques to get you through

37:48

this.

37:50

And that was a big realization for me,

37:53

because I was like, Well, okay,

37:56

well, what does that look like?

37:57

He's like, That looks like you're gonna be

37:57

this is gonna be with you for

38:02

the rest of your life.

38:02

Yeah, yeah.

38:02

Yeah. Yeah.

38:06

So it

38:06

makes me have way more empathy ~ for

38:06

people and whatever they're going through

38:13

because it's not just a phase.

38:14

Yeah.

38:15

You don't just snap your fingers and

38:18

Yeah, I agree.

38:23

And I'm sorry that you have anxiety

38:23

because I think

38:29

I I watched my own son struggle with that

38:29

and it ~ it

38:34

it it was it's not logical,

38:37

so it was hard to watch.

38:38

No.

38:39

Yeah, it's it definitely is not logical at

38:39

all.

38:42

And it's there's moments where you in your

38:42

brain you know it's not logical,

38:47

but you still can't push those thoughts

38:47

away.

38:51

And going back to grief though,

38:53

was there like a certain point where you

38:53

realized,

38:57

well, I need to stop fighting this and

38:57

learn how to walk alongside of it?

39:02

I feel like that happened at the

39:02

beginning,

39:05

just the first day, because I I kept like

39:05

thinking like,

39:09

okay, we can have a normal life if

39:09

Nicholas is here.

39:12

Like there was no no scenario where

39:19

he wasn't there where normal life came

39:19

back.

39:22

So I think I feel like that happened

39:22

really early on.

39:26

That's that's good.

39:29

What would you say, ~

39:36

Never mind. I in my head it was a

39:36

different question,

39:39

but you've already answered it.

39:40

Okay. I can

39:42

answer things twice too.

39:46

see here our but it was stigma that's

39:46

where I was going.

39:52

I feel like alongside of mental health

39:52

there's also stigma with addiction.

39:58

How did that play out ~ both when Nicholas

39:58

was alive and after his death?

39:59

Mm-hmm.

40:10

Well, you know Can I start I can I start

40:10

with that

40:16

w after Steph? Like when after Nicholas

40:16

was gone,

40:18

Yeah.

40:21

I felt like I felt like people were

40:21

driving by

40:26

my house or my former students were

40:26

talking to one another and everybody was

40:33

Can you believe, you know, sh that lady

40:37

Such a bad mom that y her son had a pill

40:37

size hole in his heart.

40:46

And there's a saying in Al Anon,

40:48

which is, How free do you want to be?

40:50

And my answer is, I really want to be

40:50

free.

40:52

So I felt like I I got to a place where I

40:52

was like,

40:56

is that really what I want to believe

40:56

about the world?

40:59

And the answer is no, because it would be

40:59

a terrible way to live.

41:03

And so I started trying to figure out

41:09

how to find some grace for myself so that

41:09

I didn't feel like I was.

41:15

the addict's mom or that Nicholas was the

41:15

addict.

41:18

~ in Ellen, you have sponsors and I have

41:18

one and she's just lovely,

41:24

but she used to tease before Nicholas

41:24

passed that I was so embarrassed

41:27

by his addiction. And she used to say,

41:30

~ I think I'm gonna make you go onto the

41:30

street corner and hold a sign saying

41:34

my son's an addict and I love him.

41:37

And since he passed away, I feel like

41:37

that's what I do now.

41:40

I go on my all my socials and I wrote this

41:40

book and I'm saying,

41:46

my son is an addict and I love him.

41:48

So that stigma's been really hard for me

41:48

to beat down.

41:56

And then when he was alive, I think we all

41:56

played into it.

42:00

I, you know, we really wanted we wanted

42:00

him to get better.

42:05

And I think we thought like the more

42:05

hopeful we were,

42:10

like, this is just a phase, he's gonna,

42:13

you know, he's gonna hit his bottom.

42:16

~

42:20

So I f I we while he was alive,

42:23

I think we all were really trapped in

42:23

that.

42:29

Yeah. Now I'd I'd love to bring up some of

42:29

the good things.

42:35

Looking back, what are some of your

42:35

favorite memories of Nicholas that

42:41

you want people to remember?

42:46

~ well he wasn't perfect. I think that's ~

42:46

something that,

42:50

you know, when people pass away,

42:52

you try to only remember. But he really

42:52

loved soccer.

42:57

And I remember he used to, especially in

42:57

junior high and his freshman year,

43:03

he he his freshman year he got on the

43:03

varsity team right away.

43:06

he just loved it. But ~ our next door

43:06

neighbors,

43:10

~ the mom went to she was a teacher with

43:10

me,

43:14

and ~ the

43:16

Mom told somebody and somebody came back

43:16

and told me and they were like,

43:19

Yeah, Nicholas practices soccer with cones

43:19

all by himself all the time.

43:24

And I was really surprised people were

43:24

talking about it.

43:28

But it is true. Like that he was like

43:28

driven.

43:32

It was a passion for of his.

43:35

And I there's something beautiful about

43:35

that.

43:38

Just, you know, a kid who n loves

43:38

something and wants to do ~

43:44

wants to just be the the best that they

43:44

can at it.

43:46

~ and the other thing about him,

43:49

another funny story about our backyard,

43:51

is so we are dog people and we have dogs

43:51

and Nicholas's job was to pick

43:57

up the dog poop and which makes sense

43:57

because he was the one usually using

44:01

the grass. So in any case, ~ he did a

44:01

phenomenal job and we were always like,

44:07

he's really good at picking up the dog

44:07

poop.

44:10

And then one time my husband looked over

44:10

the wall at our neighbors

44:14

and Nicholas was picking up the dog poop

44:14

and flinging it over the rope.

44:19

yeah. So he was he was somebody who ~ who

44:19

liked

44:25

to push his limits, obviously.

44:27

~ and he was reckless. He I remember the

44:27

first time he

44:34

he wanted to do gymnastics, so he was

44:34

taking a gymnastics class and he

44:38

was he was maybe seven. And I took him

44:38

there and before it started they

44:45

had all the boys and I think there it was

44:45

only boys,

44:48

but they were like, yeah, see how far you

44:48

can go up on that rope and it

44:52

was a huge building and, you know,

44:55

they're go a little ways, but Nicholas w

44:55

like he climbed all the way to

44:58

the top of the rope and and it might have

44:58

been two stories,

45:02

maybe three stories up.

45:03

And then he just let go like a crazy

45:03

person and just fell all the way down.

45:07

And everybody was looking at me and we

45:07

were running and like,

45:10

you know, he the he had the wind knocked

45:10

out of him.

45:12

And I was like, Nicholas, why did you let

45:12

go?

45:16

He's like, I didn't know what to do once I

45:16

was up there.

45:18

Yeah.

45:19

He was like, they told me to climb.

45:22

And I was he so he's exactly exactly so

45:22

reckless,

45:23

Yeah. Yeah, they didn't tell him how to

45:23

get down,

45:26

they just told him to climb.

45:29

reckless and determined and a scoot.

45:34

~ one other thing is that he he loved his

45:34

family.

45:38

He loved his brothers and there was a time

45:38

he was coming off

45:44

the benzodiazepines and he was in ICU for

45:44

six days with a swelling of

45:50

the brain and he didn't know who he was,

45:51

he didn't know his name. ~ and I said,

45:56

you know, who are you? And he said,

45:59

I'm the big brother. And I think if that's

46:03

Like it when everything was stripped away,

46:05

like that's who he was. He he loved his

46:05

brothers and he loved his family.

46:12

I love that. So I just have like two or

46:12

three more here.

46:16

What has your son continued to teach you

46:16

even after his passing?

46:17

Okay.

46:24

~ to be brave. Like I've been posting

46:24

poems about him on the internet.

46:30

~ to listen.

46:35

~

46:38

his dad started taking ~ guitar lessons.

46:42

So my husband, Nick,

46:45

is he's a physicist. He's very,

46:48

you know, left brain if that's a thing.

46:50

But since Nicola's past he's been,

46:52

you know, playing guitar, ~ and kind of

46:52

like singing love love songs to him.

46:57

So I guess he's taught me

47:03

to to really get in touch with kind of

47:03

being in the moment and being present

47:07

and like appreciating music and kind of

47:07

holding space

47:13

and like maybe there's hope that that he

47:13

kind of is here on some level.

47:21

Mm, I love that.

47:24

Meet him.

47:24

And

47:25

really love that. And I love that ~ your

47:25

husband found something

47:31

as well to pick up and do that.

47:34

It is really cute.

47:34

I think that's great.

47:35

Yeah. Well, it was it started because he

47:35

wanted to play a Willie Nelson song.

47:41

I think it's Willie Nelson, Just Breathe.

47:43

'Cause it reminded him of Nicholas.

47:46

And then now he's just playing all sorts

47:46

of kind of sweet songs.

47:53

It's awesome. I'm j I'm a huge fan of

47:53

music,

47:56

so I'd I'd be that person to pick up

47:56

something like that,

47:57

~

48:00

but I can't play guitar for the life of

48:00

me.

48:02

I've tried and it just is not me.

48:04

Well, Nick ~ didn't he takes lessons and

48:04

there

48:09

he has ~ performances every ~ f four times

48:09

a year.

48:15

So ~ and they're usually with seven and

48:15

eight year olds.

48:18

So ~ he's like this, you know,

48:21

fifty four year old man amongst two these

48:21

tiny little kids.

48:25

So

48:26

That's great.

48:30

So what do you what do you wish ~ people

48:30

would stop saying to grieving parents?

48:40

think it's not stop saying because I even

48:40

I feel like if you say something with good

48:46

intentions, I think people I I I can speak

48:46

for me,

48:51

I'll take it. I mean, I've had people say

48:51

really stupid stuff where you're just

48:55

like, my God. But I know that their heart

48:55

is ~ means well.

49:00

~ I think what I would want them to do is

49:00

just to talk to them because I feel like

49:05

a lot of times people

49:08

are worried about like, will it hurt her

49:08

feelings?

49:12

I don't know. Here's an example.

49:13

My sister, her daughter who I love,

49:16

is pregnant and she's having her next dot

49:16

she's she already had a baby,

49:21

so she's having her second. But my sister

49:21

called and was like,

49:24

This is gonna be a hard conversation

49:24

because it's gonna be hard for you to

49:28

And I'm sure that was really hard for my

49:28

sister,

49:32

you know? So it was beautiful that she

49:32

like could hold both things,

49:32

Yeah.

49:36

like

49:37

We all want her daughter to have a

49:37

healthy,

49:40

beautiful daughter. And at the same time,

49:43

it can be sad that Nicholas isn't here to

49:43

have kids on his own too.

49:46

So, so maybe just to have those hard

49:46

conversations

49:52

and know that I it was so beautiful that

49:52

she called and said it that way because,

49:58

you know, of course I feel that way.

50:00

I feel sad that Nicholas can't have kids

50:00

and ~

50:05

It was just really I it was nice to find

50:05

out from her and also to find

50:11

out like with like such a loving

50:11

connection.

50:15

Yeah, and I I think the way you put that

50:15

was fantastic is the

50:19

the intention behind it. 'Cause I have to

50:19

admit I'm often that person that says

50:25

things with the right intention,

50:26

but I don't always use the right words to

50:26

people.

50:29

And then I'll walk away and I'm like,

50:30

I could have said that a lot better.

50:34

I had a ~ one of my dad's friends who

50:34

said,

50:37

~ sorry about Nicholas, but it is what it

50:37

is.

50:41

And I was like

50:44

You're yeah, that was a like for real?

50:47

You really just said that type of thing?

50:48

Yeah.

50:49

But he's eighty two or some age.

50:53

Like I'm sure it killed him to say like

50:53

I'm sure and so I had to take

50:58

it as like he's trying to re like he's

50:58

trying.

51:05

And the here this is the last ~ question

51:05

that I had,

51:08

but then there's a just a few follow up

51:08

ones.

51:11

If your son could hear this conversation,

51:14

what would you want him to know?

51:17

Come back. that

51:23

we miss him and

51:27

If there's anything that we did that could

51:27

have stopped him,

51:31

I'm sorry for I'm sorry for the mistakes I

51:31

made.

51:36

And I hope he knows how loved he is.

51:39

How much we really love him.

51:47

I love it. It's it's all just just really

51:47

really good.

51:52

I I love how open you've been th

51:52

throughout this whole conversation.

51:57

Where can people find you?

52:02

Well, I live in Gilbert, Arizona,

52:03

and you can find me at www.katierizzo.com.

52:08

So that's my website. Or on Instagram,

52:11

I'm Katie Rizzo double seven. My students

52:11

gave me that name.

52:15

I think it's super cute.

52:16

Yeah.

52:19

So there you can find my poetry.

52:21

~ I have a book out called The Trimesters

52:21

of Grief and it's ~

52:27

being sold anywhere books are sold.

52:29

It comes out in October, but it's

52:29

available for sale right now.

52:35

Awesome. And I'll make sure to add the the

52:35

links in the show notes for you.

52:40

And last thing here is I feel like we've

52:40

covered a lot of ground.

52:44

Is there anything you'd want to bring up

52:44

that we did not discuss?

52:53

I think one thing I wish I would have

52:53

added to the part where you said,

52:57

what would you tell a family who's

52:57

struggling with addiction?

53:00

~ I would tell them that something I

53:00

learned in Al Anon is to be a loving

53:06

And that's really helped me,

53:09

even with non people who are not addicted,

53:13

that you're I feel like for a long time my

53:13

I thought my role was

53:18

to kind of guide my kids and

53:24

help see like where their pitfalls and

53:24

kind of make sure that they're safe.

53:29

And now I feel like my job is just to be a

53:29

loving witness.

53:38

Love it. Well, Katie, thank you so much

53:38

for coming on and spending an hour with

53:42

I admire you for writing a book and

53:42

sharing your story.

53:47

I I know that it's not easy to be

53:47

vulnerable,

53:52

but I I admire your the work you're doing

53:52

and you telling

53:58

the story and I loved hearing about all

53:58

about Nicholas.

54:03

Mm. Well, I love talking about him.

54:07

Great and thank you all that listened.

54:11

If this ~ episode resonated with you,

54:13

please share it and follow us.

54:15

Thanks again until next time.