Loving Someone Through Psychosis Nearly Broke Me | Marriage & Mental Illness

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Imagine loving someone deeply while slowly watching mental illness, emotional exhaustion,

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and financial pressure tear your marriage apart.

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Today's conversation is about the side of severe mental illness people rarely talk about.

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The impact it on spouses, families, finances, and the possible decisions that sometimes

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follow.

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Welcome to Overcome with Travis White.

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Today's guest is Oste Stinson.

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Welcome to the show, Oste.

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Thanks for having me.

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And I don't want to waste any time for people to listen to my voice, so I'm going to just

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hand you the microphone.

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All right.

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Well, questionable decision.

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No, I, m I was thinking about how to approach this and I figured I needed to lay a little

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bit of groundwork because the rest of the context makes a lot more sense.

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So I was a 32 year old Mormon.

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Virgin getting married to a man from a different country, a different country.

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did what could possibly go wrong, right?

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Um, just a lot of, uh, he and I were really opposite people.

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Um, we had dated for a couple of years and

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really loved each other and it was right timing and felt right.

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um About a month in to our marriage, maybe a couple of months, just started acting really

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strange.

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And it wasn't anything totally obnoxious.

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Like it wasn't anything majorly different, but it was just like subtly something was off

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and it just really struck me like.

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I was really caught off guard, like something's different here.

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And he called me home from work and he just said, um, I want to get a divorce and I'm

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leaving right now.

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And I was like, we haven't even fought.

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Like, was just like, two months in.

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was like, my gosh, like that must've been a really just horrible honeymoon or something.

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I was just like, well, what is happening?

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And so I.

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I kind of was like, was in shock to be honest with you, because that's just not what you

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expect.

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And anyway, he came back a few days later and apologized and it just was like, you're just

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in shock.

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But I did not know what to, what was happening.

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And he just, from that point on, was just really strange with me.

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He just wasn't really making eye contact.

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He was kind of being cold and distant.

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And I truly thought like I've married someone.

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who married me for the wrong reason.

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Like he married me and now like something, I don't know, but I just was like, he's not

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him, something happened.

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So I called up a uh couples therapist and I said, hey, I'm just really confused and maybe

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I'm overthinking things, because this is like my first like real relationship, know?

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So I just was like, can I just talk to an expert?

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I called the couples counselor and we showed up and.

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I sat down with him on day one and I just said, here's the deal.

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I did not get married because I was lonely.

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I did not get married for money.

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I did not get married for sex.

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I did not get married for any other reason than I was ready and I loved him and we were on

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the same page.

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And I said, I'm willing to work this out with him.

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I'm willing to get a divorce.

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I just need to know what flip, what switch just flipped.

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because I'm feeling really uneasy about the man that I've just welcomed into my life,

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right?

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um And so full transparency, I was just really um on the defense.

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Like there was this definite like, he now might be the enemy.

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And so I kind of got ready to spar with them because I was like, I don't know what your

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angle is buddy, but you're messing with the wrong person.

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And um yeah, it just was these subtle little things.

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And he would, uh I was getting kind of emotional, obviously, because I was just like,

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still in shock from him leaving and all the different things.

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And so I would get really emotional and he would just kind of laugh at me.

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um And context for that is like on my wedding day, my mom told a story about like, just so

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you know, when Oste was a kid, rather than cry, she'd hold her breath until she passed

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out.

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Like Oste doesn't cry.

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So the fact that my whole first two months of marriage, I was just like sobbing in bed.

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I was like, what is happening?

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This is not, this does not feel like me.

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um And so we kept going back and things just kind of got subtly weirder and weirder and

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just like something is off.

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I just couldn't quite put my hand on it, you And so finally one day we were driving to the

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pharmacy because he was sick and he needed some meds, just like a standard sickness kind

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of thing.

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And on the way there, he just said to me, my family is like not the same anymore.

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kind of out of the blue, you know?

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And I was like, what do mean?

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Like, since you got married, like, are they treating you different?

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And he's like, yeah.

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And I just kind of thought, you know, he has a bunch of sisters and maybe it was just

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like, they're not sure how to let their little brother be married or, you know, something

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like that.

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I just kind of was in my own head making up a story of some kind.

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And so we got to the got to the place to check out and I mentioned something about his

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sister or his mom.

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asked a question and he just like shut down.

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And I was like, my gosh, like he's acting like I really said something super offensive.

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was like, I'm so sorry.

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Like, are you okay?

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I just wouldn't talk to me.

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And so we go to get in the car to drive home and, and he stops me and he goes, wait,

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don't, don't go anywhere.

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And he's just staring at me and he kind of has this like, just droopy, like intense, but

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dead kind of face.

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And it just was like, what is happening?

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Like, all right, do you want to talk about something?

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Like, did I offend you?

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Like we can talk about it and he just wouldn't let me drive, but he wouldn't let me.

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It is just this weird, awkward, like passive aggressive thing.

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And I'm just trying to put all my logic to it.

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Like, what is, what is happening here?

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I don't get this.

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And anyway, um, things just kept getting weirder and weirder.

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So finally we went back to this therapist and he said, I.

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I've exhausted like all the things I know to do is like, there's just so many weird things

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happening that I can't, he didn't use the word weird, but just so many things that I just

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can't quite figure out what.

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motive is and he goes I think you maybe need to look into like a bipolar or a

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schizophrenia or something and so he referred us to somebody and we showed up and I said

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hi I know this is like strange but he like doesn't look at me and I'm just listing these

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things that just kind of made me feel like an idiot like my husband doesn't look me in the

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eye or something but it was just like on a different level that you know because you've

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been with this person for years and you know that's not how they are and so

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I explained all these seemingly mundane symptoms and the doctor was like, yeah, all of

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those things are indicative of somebody being in a psychotic state or someone being in a

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psychosis.

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And I was like, huh?

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And he's like, yeah, every single one of those.

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And he's like, that's not a disease or anything.

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He's like, it's a cluster of symptoms and it could be a signal of schizophrenia or bipolar

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or any number of schizoaffective disorder or bipolar or something.

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and so we started asking questions and it turns out that my husband, now ex-husband, but

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my husband had basically was taking an ADHD medication before we were married and he was

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working like 14 hour days trying to save up money to get married and he was like, let me

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just take like twice as much as I was prescribed because I need twice as much focus.

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And then when that made him anxious, he's like, I'm too anxious.

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I'm to come off this cold turkey.

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And so he came off of this medication cold turkey, like right when we got married.

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And it just kicked his brain into a a different state.

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And the timing of it was so unfortunate because his sister could sense that something was

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off and his behavior was also.

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unusual toward his family and so their theory was that I was like drugging him and abusing

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them and This is being translated because his sister is here But most of his family is in

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a different country in a different language and so everything's being translated

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sister-in-law who thinks I'm literally like Just Tackling keeping her brother locked up in

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a cage in the basement or something and it was just so intense

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So crazy.

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I don't even know what to say because it's like...

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So when he actually got the diagnosis, how did that look for your relationship at that

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time?

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Yeah, so at this point we were about six months into marriage.

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um And maybe it three months.

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Three or six, I don't know.

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Honestly, the last decade of my life doesn't even exist in my own brain anymore.

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But we were three or six months into marriage.

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I think it was three.

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And the doctor basically was like, it's possible that this was drug induced.

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It's possible this is genetic and the stress of getting married and he lost his father.

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This was right after COVID, but a time when a lot of people were having a lot of stress

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and...

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He's like, it could be like his new, you know, kind of lot in life.

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This might be totally drug induced and he could metabolize it and go completely back to

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himself in six or nine months.

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And so, you know, you're sitting there, you're three months into a marriage, you've just

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vowed in sickness and health.

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And I'm like, I'm three months in, like roll up those sleeves, like I'm in it, you know,

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for three more months to get someone back that I've, you know, waited my whole life to

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meet.

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And so I kind of just took the mentality of like, okay, we're just like, buckling down,

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like this is what marriage vows mean.

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And so the next few months, I can't say we're pretty.

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um Like I think in that moment, I really thought I'm going to do great.

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And then my true colors came out, like my true like, lack of resilience showed up because

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it just was so hard, like every day because you know, he's a grown man.

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um But he's actively living in a reality that doesn't reflect my own reality.

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And not to mention that, but he also had a bunch of physical ailments going on.

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He had like a bowel disease and a bunch of things.

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So he was like constantly sick and physically sick and then, but then mentally not quite

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aware of what was happening.

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And so he just felt like I was.

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in this, I felt like I was sort of in his reality.

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Like it was just kind of everything moving a thousand miles an hour and a new bill showing

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up every single day.

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And every day straight for the first three and a half months of our marriage, something

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broke in the house that was at least a hundred bucks.

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Like, and I'm talking like all the way up to like 6,000, like our water heater broke.

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There was a root canal.

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had like four check engine lights across three different cars.

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It was just like.

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everything kept breaking and bills kept coming and I'm trying to work a full-time job and

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figure this out and it was just so much all at one time.

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At this point was he still working?

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So he was working for the first while, then...

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There was a moment when his, uh, he basically closed up shop one day early.

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He was working, um, by himself one day and he basically decided, I think what the story

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later came out that he hallucinated that Justin Bieber had invited him to go drinking and

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clubbing in Salt Lake city.

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So he, so he locked up shop, came home and I was like, you're home early.

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And it just didn't really seem that big a deal.

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Um, we had kind of gotten in a bit of a fight the day before or something just because

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tension was really high at this point.

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It was just, I was, I was spiraling and at this point I think there was still kind of a

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residual effect of like me thinking this guy was like trying to harm me in some way.

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There was just this subconscious like he is the enemy kind of like programming inside me.

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That's just like, you're not safe.

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And so anyway, so he

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He's like, I'm going to go up to Salt Lake and hang out with some friends.

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And I was like, awesome.

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I could really use just like a night to chill.

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And um he didn't come back that night.

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And the next morning when I woke up, he wasn't there and I had started a brand new job.

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And so was like, okay, I got to go to my new job.

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Like, I can't lose my job.

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I'm going to got to go.

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And so I was trying to call him and stuff and like leaving him messages.

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And on my lunch break, I checked my voicemail and the local courthouse was like, hi, an

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incarcerated person is trying to reach you.

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And that's not a call.

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Like Molly Mormon, like straight A student, like darn and golly, like I'm just like an

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incarcerated what?

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And I'm like, what is happening?

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And just everything that was happening was kind of just like an alternate reality.

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It's like, that's not my life.

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That's somebody else's life.

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Like I just, it was so weird.

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And, yeah, I guess he had gone out drinking.

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Um, Bieber didn't show up.

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And so he, he drove home, um, and got pulled over for drunk driving and, um, and the

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wilder thing is they just like, let him out in Salt Lake with no car keys, no wallet, no

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phone.

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He's, he's having schizo effective episodes.

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and they like just set him free and so he basically like hitchhiked from Salt Lake down to

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Pleasant Grove and just was like trying to figure out how get there.

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So it was just a wild, a wild day and a wild ride.

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that's crazy.

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Could you look at him and tell when he was in this state of psychosis?

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Yeah, I didn't realize it at the time, but his eyes just went really dark and it was just

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this sort of vacant but creepy presence and it's just so not him because like he has the

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kindest eyes and he's just like this like soft kind gentle creature and then he just had

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this kind of hollow sinister like creepy look honestly it like really scared me um

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sometimes and he'd also get really

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combative and he's just not like normally that way but he'd kind of just start looking

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fights and just a weird like a personality that's like there's a guy out there who that's

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his personality that's not this guy and it just was really strange like I just couldn't

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quite figure out what it was.

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Yeah, I can imagine though when he gets in that state he's just highly irritable.

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Yeah.

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And the farther it went along, the more he felt sort of like, I quit my job.

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So I was only at that new job for like two weeks.

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And then I basically had to go into the new boss and be like, um my husband's like

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wandering off in the middle of the day.

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Like I need to quit and go home and just like manage the situation.

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Um, yeah, it was.

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my wife can say little bits and pieces about that.

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So like when I get really stressed out and stuff, and when I was going through some of my

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medical stuff, I dissociate.

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So basically, I'm not aware of what's going on around me, but I'll do stupid things.

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And sometimes I'll wander off.

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I remember I drove an hour and a half not knowing who I was, and I was supposed to be

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somewhere else.

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And at the time,

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You know, I wasn't married yet.

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she, she called me, my fiance had called me and she said, where are you?

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You were supposed to be at work.

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I said, well, I'm at a log cabin and she knows a log cabin is my parents' house.

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So she had to drive down and come get me and have somebody else drive with her to pick up

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my car.

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But so it's like, it's crazy.

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Just, yeah.

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and you know that they're not doing the things they're doing because that's their life

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choice.

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And there it's like, you it's the weirdest thing.

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I just tried to explain it.

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Like, it's like, I'm sure I'm not a parent, but I'm like, I'm sure it's like what a parent

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feels like when their kid is.

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doing something, you know, that's not safe for them, but the difference is like, but

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you're an adult and like there's adult consequences.

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Like if he had hurt somebody while drunk driving, that is a life like you could have

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altered lives and did, you know, and so it's just kind of one of those things where I'm

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like, I, trying to prevent you from like really shooting yourself in the foot.

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Um, and it's just a really hard thing because then with, with, least with schizo effective

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with, with psychosis, you have a

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a more likelihood of paranoia.

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And so there was also some, you're trying to control me.

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And so there's this really delicate balance of like me trying to control him because I

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didn't want him wandering off and hurting someone, but also not letting him know, you

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know, it was just a mind game the whole time.

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I was just on high alert for nine months straight.

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So when you were actually trying to help him, did he accept that help ever or was he just

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kind of pushing you away?

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For the first long time he did, like when we were going to therapy and then we were going

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to the physician whose specialty is um medication for mental health.

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Like it's helping that specific area.

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And then he actually referred us to a specialist who does a really in-depth diagnostic.

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And so I was...

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I was trying to help him and at first he kind of was just passive and was like going along

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with it.

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But then that sister of his was like, she's doing this to you.

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She's the one making you sick.

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This isn't who you really are.

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And so then he started to be like, wait, you gave me these drugs, you made me sick.

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And then you're trying to explain to him, no, you're on an anti-psychotic because you were

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acting, because you were experiencing psychosis.

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Like, and he just couldn't, he's like, no, you're doing this.

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So it's just hard because you're not dealing with the same reality.

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It's two different realities and there's no consensus in that.

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Yes, for sure.

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And so I take it from there was no signs of any of this type of stuff before.

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No, at least not on like maybe like maybe I just didn't see it because like I said, it's

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not like he woke up on day one, raw unicorns in the sky.

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That happened on day 300.

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But on day, you know, 15, it's just a little less eye contact than normal.

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That's not necessarily something you spot when you're not living with someone and spending

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like day in day out with them.

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sure.

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And did you know anything about schizoaffective disorder before or was this just an idle

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opener to you?

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I did take in classes in high school and college of psychology and stuff.

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And so I've always been really interested in that.

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um But I've never known anyone to have it.

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And so I think one of the things I've learned a lot about is just the spectrum of mental

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health.

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Because I know there's a lot of stigma around

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something like schizo effective, right?

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And people would kind of jump to the most extreme, but there are a lot of days where he's

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just like not really making eye contact and a little bit dissociated.

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And eh you don't realize that he's in a totally different place in his head, but it's it's

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not this like screaming blaring, you know, thing.

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It's a very subtle.

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It's a very subtle thing that

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hard to catch on to and is really hard to live with because you know it's not your person

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and it almost gaslights you to be like something is off like I know you're not you but

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you're not like doing anything too different and so it's just this weird all your spiny

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sentences are going off but you can't figure out why and so then you start to think well

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am I just being like this you know like bizarre am I is it me I don't know so

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That's...

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It's all crazy to me.

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It's...

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But that's a good way, like, to explain it.

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It's...

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You could tell that he was just a little bit off and somewhere in his head he's dealing

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with something different.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because somebody wants to ask me, like, how do you even explain being in that state of

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mind?

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it's like, well, my body's here, but my mind's not.

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Mm-hmm.

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So uh how difficult was it trying to balance compassion for your husband while also

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protecting your own mental health?

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I think I did the worst of both.

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I think I was a really good case on what not to do.

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um I'm very problem solver pragmatic, which I think at times can be interpreted as like,

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she doesn't love him.

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Cause no, if my, you know, if a wife found that out about a husband, she wouldn't react

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like that.

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And I'm like, no, I'm a problem solver.

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I will grieve this and process this later.

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But as long as there's a fire in front of me, I've got the hose and I'm on the front line,

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you know?

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So I think there was a lot of like me trying to process my grief because it was like such

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a jarring experience to marry someone that you like love on every level and.

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you're sharing like your whole life with and it's all awesome.

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And then all of a sudden it's just like gone.

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And maybe he's even doing something like all the betrayal and then there's grief and

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there's fear and there's just like embarrassment.

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And there's all these different feelings that you're trying to like process, but also kind

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of.

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At for me, was like shielding myself from it.

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Like I was like, I cannot process my shame right now because I have to deal with it.

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You know, like I was like, we can't even think about the fact that he just walked out on

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you.

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Like that's going to be processed years from now.

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there's just like, I was mean, like because I don't know.

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Like I just was kind of mean to him sometimes because he'd be doing something or saying

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something.

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And it was just like, it just, it was so overwhelming.

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Like, and I think part of it, like here's a, here's a good example.

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And it's the stupidest example, but.

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Um, he, so he'd left his job.

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Um, and that would made sense.

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And I had, I had left, um I eventually had to quit mine and I was just doing side hustles

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to like bring in money to pay bills.

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But I was kind of like getting really resentful just because I think like I've heard that

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resentment is most closely tied to grief.

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And I really think that's what it was.

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It was just like, I was not having that newlywed experience that I was like.

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expecting to have had, you know, that honeymoon phase.

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so I was like, could you just go out and like, trim the bushes in the back?

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Like, I was just like, could you do something that just like helps me feel like I don't

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have to maintain a mortgage and a yard and a job and your health and my health?

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I was just like, can you just like, go do that for me?

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And he's like, sure.

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And he's not, he's lived in apartments his whole life and just hasn't really done a lot of

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yard work.

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And so was like, the bush looks like this.

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You just want to make it like this, you know?

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And so I give him the clippers and I'm like, you can't go wrong.

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Anyway, I go out like two hours later and he had just cut the center out of the bush.

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So it was like Moses had walked right near the center of the bush.

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And it was just like two halves.

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I could see the fence through the back and I lost it.

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I just was like, what is happening?

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Of course he's like, oh god, I did a good job.

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And he's like childlike.

24:11

And he's like, it almost is like a little kid being like, mom, but I drew a picture on the

24:11

wall, you know?

24:16

And the mom was like, that's my best wall.

24:18

So I just kind of lost it sometimes because it was just like this lunacy on top of anger,

24:18

on top of grief, on top of sadness, on top of fear.

24:29

Like it was just.

24:29

so many compounding emotions, I just couldn't process it very well.

24:33

And then he'd look at me with this like childlike face and be like, why are you so mad

24:33

right now?

24:38

And then I'd feel horrible because I'm screaming.

24:41

So it was not pretty.

24:42

And I apologize.

24:43

I shouldn't laugh because really it's not funny, but your Moses analogy got me.

24:48

the thing.

24:48

That's the thing is like in hindsight now, there are so many things that happen that I'm

24:48

like, that's a hilarious story.

24:55

But at the time, you're like, this is like the farthest thing from funny and I'm actually

24:55

like living slash grieving slash all the things.

25:04

but in some cases, I feel like you almost have to laugh.

25:10

Maybe that's just my personality.

25:12

Maybe nobody will agree with me.

25:13

But I feel like laughter is the best medicine.

25:17

At least it is for me.

25:18

I will say I tried that at the beginning and then it just kept happening.

25:24

Like when you've got the Moses bush and then the water heater breaks and then like thing

25:24

after thing after thing after thing, it just was like, wait, this isn't actually funny.

25:36

And I don't actually think I can like keep this up.

25:40

Like this is just really hard and exhausting.

25:44

And I'm speaking very much about like, I'm this victim over here.

25:47

Like what's also hard is the additional layer of knowing at the end of the day that he's

25:47

not doing any of this on purpose.

25:55

That he's actually treating me very well in terms of like, he's actually being really kind

25:55

and sweet.

26:02

And so there's like this guilt also that's like, he didn't ask for this, you know, and

26:02

it's like, he's not, this isn't a lack of character.

26:13

that he's cutting this bush wrong or whatever, you know, but it's just so many things at

26:13

one time that you're trying to process and so many conflicting things, but also so many

26:22

things where you have to be honest with yourself of like, oh, I was not patient right

26:22

then.

26:27

I did not handle that well.

26:31

I may not be able to be married to this person.

26:34

This person may not be safe.

26:36

Like there's so many different like possible real truths that you have to kind of come to

26:36

grips with.

26:40

And that's just like not what I was.

26:43

No one's prepared for that.

26:44

You just not leave.

26:44

There's no book.

26:46

well you were expecting one thing and you got something else.

26:49

And it's like you're sitting here trying to protect yourself.

26:52

And I completely understand that.

26:55

Sometimes with everything that even happened to me, I'm shocked Kim's still married to me.

27:05

Yes, is.

27:07

So.

27:08

Like during this time though, did friends or family have an understanding of what home

27:08

life looked like?

27:13

Did they know this was going on?

27:16

Um, yes and no.

27:17

There was part of me, like my family very much operates under the belief of like...

27:26

Nah, how do I say this?

27:27

In a non-problematic way, maybe not, maybe that's wrong, but like if you and your spouse

27:27

are having some sort of a disagreement, don't come bring that to the family and cause beef

27:41

in your own marriage.

27:42

know, like in a healthy way, try to solve that and resolve that between your own.

27:45

And I think for me at the beginning, especially because I wasn't sure what was happening,

27:45

I didn't know that it was a sickness.

27:51

I thought it was like a character flaw.

27:54

I think there was an element of not only self preservation for my own ego, just like not

27:54

wanting to admit that I married the wrong guy after, you know, 32 years of thinking I was

28:04

being smart.

28:06

But also the idea of just like

28:09

if this is something else, I want him to be able to heal on his own timeline without the

28:09

scrutiny of a family that's not maybe his own yet, you know, like he hasn't quite adopted

28:21

as his own.

28:21

And so I remember on the day that he said he was moving out, I got in the car and started

28:21

driving away because I was like, I'm not gonna be here when you leave me, I'm leaving you.

28:31

this, you know, and I called my mom just like sobbing and she obviously was like, okay,

28:31

you don't sob.

28:37

So what is happening?

28:38

And I told her and I was like, he's leaving and she's like, what happened?

28:41

like, I don't even know.

28:42

And she's like, Oste turn around, go back home.

28:48

You need to be there when he leaves.

28:50

Then he needs, he needs to see that he's like, she basically was just like, he needs to be

28:50

the one that walks out on you.

28:56

Like kind of a thing.

28:57

Like, go be there.

28:57

You'll leave mad if you're not.

28:58

And so my mom kind of talked me off.

29:00

My parents though, like through this whole thing start to finish angels.

29:05

Like they, they

29:08

When after he came back, I said, you owe my parents an apology too, frankly, because like,

29:08

just walking out on me like a month in is wild.

29:17

And so he sat down with my dad and my dad's a pretty intimidating guy.

29:20

And he just was like, I'm sorry, sir.

29:22

And, but my parents didn't like hold it over him.

29:25

They were like, we're here to help you and support you.

29:27

But that's

29:29

really cool and to have people in your, that have your back and that are there through the

29:29

thick and thin I think is like really important.

29:38

Yeah.

29:39

Yeah, there was a time when this was at like the peak of a lot of it when he was, he was

29:39

at a certain point started to turn to like alcohol and was kind of leaning on that as a

29:55

bit of a crutch to kind of get him through some of the stress he was experiencing.

29:58

And I remember I

30:01

He was just like in a really bad place one day, but I had already kind of been babysitting

30:01

him all day.

30:07

And I was worried he was going to pick up on that and try to go do something problematic.

30:12

And so he wanted to go to the gym.

30:13

I said, yeah, why don't you go by yourself?

30:15

Like, go have some alone time.

30:16

Like trying to get him like autonomy, but still like a little bit of structure.

30:20

And so anyway, he called me and I picked him up and I could tell from 40 feet away that he

30:20

was in the middle of an episode.

30:27

And he just was like kind of scratching and.

30:30

It was terrifying.

30:32

Like if I didn't know him, it would have been terrifying, but it was really just like

30:32

heartbreaking.

30:35

And he got in the car and I instantly knew something was off and he was just like shaking

30:35

and scratching.

30:41

I basically drove him straight.

30:43

I called up crisis hotline and it was just like, what do I do?

30:47

What's the move here?

30:49

I don't know what to do.

30:50

And they were like, you can go to an ER and try to do a detox or something.

30:56

So I took him in there and

30:58

And he was just scratching and he had dandruff all over like he's just like this giant

30:58

like kind of almost gorilla he was just grunting and scratching and He sat down in the ER

31:10

waiting room right next to this little lady She's like five feet tall and my husband was

31:10

like six foot tall and he's like a big dude And their knees are like basically touching

31:18

and he's just like grunting and scratching and I just looked at her while I was like

31:18

scratching his back and I was like

31:23

He's okay, he's just having a bad moment, because it's just like out of context, he's a

31:23

scary looking dude, but in context you're like, he's just...

31:32

And curious though, what do they do when you're in the middle of an episode like that in

31:32

the ER?

31:38

So we just waited in the waiting room.

31:40

um He asked the nurse for a drink and she thought he meant water.

31:44

And I said, no, ma'am, he's asking you for a beer.

31:47

Which again is so funny because I'm sober as the day is long.

31:50

And she's like, sir, we don't really hand out beer in the waiting room.

31:54

And so anyway, they let us back in room eventually did some blood work, found out there

31:54

was like no alcohol or drugs in his system.

32:04

And then basically they wheel in a TV.

32:07

with a doctor of like a psychologist kind of a doctor.

32:12

And he basically does an intake to see what kind of an episode this is.

32:17

Cause clearly it's not substance induced based on the lab work.

32:20

um And it was really interesting because I had called my sister when I was driving to the

32:20

ER and I said, can you come meet us there?

32:28

I said, because if his sister hears about this, she's going to think I'm doing something.

32:35

I'm like, need, I need.

32:37

a second witness to what's happening.

32:39

And so she came and when she got there, he was fine.

32:43

Like he was just like perfectly normal.

32:45

And she's like, Hey man, like, how you doing?

32:47

He's like, pretty good.

32:47

And she's like, come and get you some food.

32:49

Are you hungry?

32:49

He's like, yeah.

32:51

So she left to go get him food.

32:52

And then right when she left, he started acting kind of just like wild again.

32:56

And during the interview, like he didn't know what year it was.

33:00

And he, um, that day he had sort of told me that he had started

33:07

your voices and they were telling him to cut off my hair at night and just like, it had

33:07

kind of escalated really quickly.

33:14

um And it just to the point where at that point I was like, well, now that I know he's

33:14

hearing these like, voices like I no longer feel like I can keep myself or him safe.

33:23

Before it was like a toddler running around with you know, a sharp object, you're like,

33:23

that's dangerous, but you can kind of manage it enough.

33:32

And this was just like,

33:34

if this guy decides to really like take me on in the middle of the evening, I like, I

33:34

can't keep either of us safe.

33:40

So I just kind of was like, I don't know what to do.

33:42

And so they ended up admitting him to a uh hospital for psychiatric monitoring and stuff.

33:50

And again, that his sister thought that I did this and stuff.

33:55

it just looks so stressful and wild.

33:59

And at this point, what does your mental health look like?

34:05

Yeah, at this point, like up to this point, I really am just like grin and bear it.

34:09

Like I'm not doing it well, but I'm supporting him, right?

34:13

Like I'm trying my hardest to pay the bills.

34:16

I'm setting up all these different, you know, odd jobs to make money and trying to like...

34:23

help him in all the ways that I can help.

34:25

And I remember that night after the doctor was like, yeah, we're going to place him in a

34:25

facility, but he needs to just stay here until we find an opening.

34:36

And I remember just being like, oh, like, I can go home.

34:41

And I don't have to like, be on alert because I was like, someone else is going to be able

34:41

to watch him and

34:48

keep him safe.

34:48

And so I went home and I just was like in bed like for the first time.

34:53

I think that was the first time I could just like take a breath.

34:56

It was like, what is happening?

34:57

I've been running a marathon for like nine months and just not even processing what's

34:57

going on.

35:02

And when he was in the hospital, I felt my brain was spinning.

35:08

And so what I actually did was he was in there for about a week and I sat down that week

35:08

and I decided I'm going to journal everything.

35:17

because it was just so many like conflicting thoughts and feelings and just chaos in my

35:17

body.

35:23

And I was like, I'm just going to write everything down.

35:25

And so I fact-checked myself and I went through old text messages and timelines and

35:25

hospital bills and I documented to the day everything that had happened.

35:36

And it was really interesting as I was writing it all down, I started to prove myself

35:36

wrong.

35:41

and was like, I thought that this, this and this all happened in one day.

35:45

And I was really mad about it, but it actually happened over the period of a month.

35:49

But time was just like compressing and, uh yeah.

35:53

And so by actually writing it out, I was like, oh, I can see very clearly my perspective

35:53

on girl Mary's guy thinks that he's some devious, true crime criminal waiting to happen.

36:08

And that that

36:09

that light that I kind of cast on the marriage at the beginning impacted a lot of the ways

36:09

that I perceived things.

36:15

But I could also see very clearly a parallel but distinct timeline of guy marries girl and

36:15

is all of a sudden like she's mad at me.

36:28

Like doesn't realize what's happening and all these kinds of things that he had tried

36:28

doing and realizing like, oh yeah, like I was pretty hard on him at this point.

36:37

which makes sense because of all these things that were happening in my world, but he

36:37

wasn't perceiving it the same.

36:41

And so I ended up writing for those five days straight and I wrote like 115 pages.

36:47

And at the end of that 115 pages, I just was like, it's out.

36:53

Like, I'm good.

36:55

It just like, it just expelled from my body and like all the tension and stuff was, it was

36:55

just really intense.

37:02

But then I was like, okay.

37:04

Well, journaling is supposed to be a really, I've never personally tried it, but it's

37:04

supposed to be a really good like therapeutic technique.

37:11

Yeah, I've never journaled long form like that or the fact checking for me was really what

37:11

I think was the most important because it's really easy in your own mind to be like on

37:21

your own high horse about like, I was justified in feeling frustrated.

37:24

And yeah, I was.

37:26

I could see how that version of me.

37:29

got to that point, but I can also really clearly see his perspective.

37:32

And that just gave me a lot more empathy and kind of put me in check of like, you have not

37:32

been handling this well or gracefully or whatever.

37:40

And so that just kind of pulled me.

37:44

know how in that type of situation you would not get frustrated.

37:51

Because I think it would be a fairly normal thing to do.

37:57

That's the thing.

37:58

I had a lot of people that were like, like, why are you still with him?

38:01

And they'd ask me these questions.

38:02

And that's like such an unhelpful question because I was really grappling with this idea

38:02

of like, I said better or worse, rich or poor, you know, and I just happened to get like,

38:13

we're both as poor as can be and the worst possible and we're both sick.

38:17

And I was like, what's the point of a vow if not to uphold it when it matters, you know?

38:23

And that's...

38:24

Part of why I think it took me so long to get married in the first place is I was just

38:24

like, I need to make sure I'm actually willing to keep that when things aren't perfect.

38:36

And I think though, like it's really hard because I can see how like the caretaker

38:36

position is really exhausting and it's thankless because you're going to all these

38:45

appointments for your person trying to keep them up and they don't actually like want it.

38:49

But, and then to some degree you have to respect that, that like they don't want to be

38:49

healed.

38:54

Or maybe they do, but they don't know how bad it is.

38:58

And then there's another part where it's like, yeah, but at the end of the day, nobody was

38:58

there for me.

39:05

Even if I wasn't there him perfectly, he wasn't there for me kind of a thing.

39:10

But then again, when I wrote that thing, I was like, I guess though him cutting that bush,

39:10

he was trying to be there for me.

39:15

It just didn't land the way I was wanting.

39:20

It's hard.

39:21

It's hard for a different reason though.

39:22

You know, I wouldn't trade in places by any means, but it's just, it's healthy.

39:29

I think you need to talk to my wife about stuff.

39:31

So these things are just overlapping and I guarantee you guys could have a good

39:31

conversation about it because it's just reminding me of stuff uh that she's dealt with too

39:44

and she's said about being the caretaker.

39:46

Because it's like, it took me years to realize but no, nobody was helping her out.

39:53

She was...

39:54

calling her brother when I was going through stuff trying to figure out, okay, well, what

39:54

do I do next?

40:00

This is what Travis just said, but it's, so there's a lot of like little overlap things.

40:09

Yeah, it's a weird spot to be in, you know, and you feel bad asking and you also feel bad

40:09

like my now ex-husband, but he's very, he's a very private guy, which I've said this

40:20

before, but he and I talked after our marriage and he gave me full permission to talk

40:20

about things, um respectfully, of course.

40:29

um But yeah, it's just like.

40:33

It's affecting two lives and it's affecting like my family's life and his family's life.

40:37

It's like mental illness is something that isn't just like this quiet little thing that

40:37

you get to keep nicely and bring it out when you want to.

40:44

You know, it's affecting his boss when he doesn't show up for work.

40:48

It's affecting like so many different elements, you know, and it's so sad because it's

40:48

very much treated like a character flaw.

40:57

And it's just like, I married him because he has a heart of gold.

41:00

Like he's just like,

41:01

such a sweet guy, you know?

41:04

And so it's just like so hard to look at someone that you love and just be like, oh my

41:04

gosh, like, are you mourning?

41:11

Are you mourning?

41:12

Do you even realize that you've left, you know?

41:15

And I don't know if he does or not, so.

41:19

So what misconceptions do you people have about severe mental health illness and marriage?

41:25

What would you say they are?

41:28

Great question.

41:29

um

41:36

I mean, I can really only speak for like my own misconceptions.

41:42

I think there's this thing where society has drawn invisible boxes around mental health.

41:49

And we say, oh, well, we can handle like a wife that's a little bit over anxious, because

41:49

that's like cute.

41:57

That's cute that I get to be her caretaker, right?

41:59

When my wife's a little anxious or something.

42:02

Um, but there, there's this line that blurs, right?

42:05

Where that cute, my wife's so anxious and isn't she a basket case?

42:09

I love crazy women, like all these things that guys will say sometimes about like, they,

42:09

you know, like this characteristic.

42:15

But like, as these things move along the spectrum, there's not a line that says this is no

42:15

longer a cute workable characteristic.

42:25

It's now like a really difficult situation, but there's also a hard part where it doesn't,

42:25

you're not just an either or.

42:32

It can come on slowly or there can be lots of situations in marriage where you're one way

42:32

and then you're not anymore.

42:39

If there's an accident or a mishap with drugs or whatever.

42:42

And then you have to just kind of ask yourself like, where's, where is my own mental

42:42

health boundary in all of this?

42:50

And like how much, this is an answer I still don't know how to answer is like, should

42:50

like, at what point should I have backed out?

42:58

Or should I have, should I double it down and been more patient?

43:01

know, like the vows of marriage are pretty, pretty clear, but the line of actual mental

43:01

health between like, I'm having some depression to I'm now like no longer functioning as a

43:14

human.

43:15

And then that next layer of like, I'm now like for me, my husband eventually got a little

43:15

bit better.

43:23

And then I felt like my immune system dropped because it was like, finally, like he's

43:23

stable enough.

43:28

I can now be weak for a minute.

43:32

And, and then he wasn't quite there to take care of me though.

43:36

Right.

43:36

So it wasn't reciprocal.

43:37

And some people never get that.

43:39

Some people it's just, that's the thing about sickness in general is just, there's not

43:39

really, there's not a clear answer in the U S for when somebody's not.

43:51

a triathlon body.

43:53

mean, what do we do with that?

43:55

And I don't know the answer, but I think there's a lot of hard conversations that a lot of

43:55

people are having behind closed doors.

44:01

And I don't think it's as simple as, well, divorcement is not being XYZ.

44:05

It's like, if I develop cancer in the first week of my marriage, would I expect him to

44:05

stay with me if I was suddenly bald and feeble?

44:15

Yeah.

44:17

That's what I know, but not everyone perceives it the same.

44:20

no, that's part of the problem with the world though.

44:24

Sometimes it's gonna come off a little bit harsh, not towards you, sometimes I feel like

44:24

on a worldly perspective, from a worldly perspective, vows are not taken as seriously as

44:37

you took them.

44:38

crypt.

44:40

And so I always admire people who take their vows seriously because to me that's what they

44:40

are and they should be taken seriously.

44:50

Yeah, I'm a very literal person and I think there's just this element of like, you know,

44:50

in Christian culture, there's a lot of people that get married for a lot less honorable

45:01

reasons.

45:03

And it's like, you hey, go get it.

45:06

But I think there's just like a world where for me looking at the difference between

45:06

dating and marriage is just like, once I've said I'm marrying you, like, it's us.

45:19

Yep.

45:19

And so even like at the end, like my everyone always is like, man, you're so strong for

45:19

like walking away or whatever they'd say.

45:26

And I'm just like, I didn't walk away.

45:28

It was Thanksgiving and he kept asking me questions like, do you ever wish that you had

45:28

like dated more before you got married?

45:36

And I was like, bitch, I was 32.

45:38

I had been there, done that.

45:40

Like was ready to settle, but he hadn't, you know, he had been in some long term

45:40

relationships.

45:45

And I said, if you're trying to tell me that you wish you had dated more.

45:49

and experienced more.

45:51

That's fair.

45:53

But don't get me to break up with like, don't get me to say it that's not how I feel.

45:56

And so finally, he just was like, Yeah, I think we should get a divorce.

45:58

And so I ended up making him say it because I was like, I'm trying to ask you to like show

45:58

up more in the marriage and like support me more and stuff.

46:07

I'm not going to say I was like happy in it, but I was willing to still put in the work.

46:12

work to, yeah.

46:15

But yeah, but I will keep them all, go ahead, go ahead.

46:19

I was gonna say this whole thing has been very like, and then he did this and this.

46:22

The thing about it is like in the moment I really was a victim, right?

46:26

I was like victim, victim, victim all day long.

46:30

In hindsight, like he and I had a really unexpectedly difficult relationship.

46:38

And on the day that we...

46:43

like officially decided to get divorced.

46:45

It was just kind of like really amicable.

46:48

And even like after we were divorced, like in sending him the divorce papers, I was like,

46:48

hey boo boo, here's the paperwork.

46:54

Let me know if have any questions.

46:56

And he writes back and was like, thank you so much, love ya.

46:58

Like he and I, I love him so much and I probably always will.

47:03

And he loves me on some level.

47:04

We've both decided marriage was not meant to be for us, but.

47:09

um

47:10

It's just one of those things where it's like we were just in a weird, we were both in an

47:10

alternate reality and we were not ourselves and it was really, I uh was really ugly and I

47:22

wasn't proud of who I was and it just ultimately was like a really hard thing that's sad

47:22

for both of us.

47:28

And I think that he had his own whole other side of the story and he's.

47:33

oh

47:35

know it's this isn't he victimized me this is I probably victimized him to be honest with

47:35

you um and no one's really a victim other than the fact that like there's just not really

47:45

systems or conversations or things to support it so that when these things start to happen

47:45

it doesn't just spiral out of control and you're left like in a puddle of question marks

47:55

two years down the road.

47:57

And for when you guys decided to get divorced, was there a breaking point where you

47:57

thought, this, we need a divorce or was it just kind of like known?

48:13

I think it had been coming for a while because like when the substances started to get

48:13

introduced, that's when I started to actually put some like ultimatums out there.

48:24

Because it's like, it's one thing for me if you're like, it so effective.

48:29

It's another thing if you're borderline alcoholic and like it's affecting the way you

48:29

treat me.

48:34

And there's just some other things that happened, right?

48:36

And so when that started happening, I basically was like,

48:41

I can't also handle alcoholism.

48:45

I just was like, I found my limit.

48:48

I can't, I just won't be able to make that work.

48:50

And so he, that was kind of an issue toward the end.

48:53

And I think ultimately, I think he decided and he was just backing out more and more and

48:53

asking me more and more questions that were kind of implying he wanted it to be done.

49:01

So that's what I just said.

49:03

I'm not gonna force you to be in a relationship with me.

49:06

marriage is only going to work if we're both actively trying to move forward with it and

49:06

that's when he kind of just called it and I didn't fight him on it at that point.

49:16

make sense and did you ever struggle with feeling judged for choosing divorce despite the

49:16

mental health circumstances?

49:27

I just I'm just thinking of the culture that we live in.

49:33

Honestly, I don't know if I can even say this about getting canceled, but I think

49:33

honestly, like,

49:41

subconscious racism was probably worse than the mental health.

49:45

Like I think it was kind of like, I married somebody of a different race and somehow that

49:45

meant that this was coming down the, I don't know, like there just felt like almost like

49:55

people weren't surprised that I got divorced, but they were, they questioned like early on

49:55

like, did you, did you know this was him?

50:03

You know, like they kind of like almost questioned like him, you know, and who he was as

50:03

opposed to like this weird circumstance that we were in.

50:11

I'm not sure if that makes any sense or if that's problematic to say, but that's like,

50:11

that's the vibe.

50:17

So I think they, I think most people were really supportive of me getting a divorce by the

50:17

end because I, I put so much of myself into it.

50:27

Like I literally spent like my life savings, like medical bills, like I did everything,

50:27

you know, and I can't say I did a good job.

50:35

Like I said, I was a little bit a bitch sometimes, but I.

50:39

I did everything I could with the skills I had and I kind of just like put it all out

50:39

there.

50:45

And so I think my family in the end, when we got divorced, uh they were so respectful of

50:45

him.

50:51

um And to this day, like my family does not, we don't talk negatively about him.

51:02

His sister a little bit, but.

51:06

But him, know, it's just kind of like, he's a sweetheart.

51:09

And um I think my family was just like, you did everything you could.

51:13

And the hard part about it is, think, like I said earlier, once he was a little bit more

51:13

out of the woods, because he was pretty stable the last probably nine months or a year of

51:21

our marriage, I was really depleted.

51:25

And I couldn't seem to get myself out of the woods.

51:28

Like, I was to the point where I was like, I can't hold a job right now.

51:31

uh And so it really affected me and like,

51:36

honestly till very recently.

51:37

um And so I ended up going back to his doctor and being like, hey, um can we talk about me

51:37

now?

51:43

Like, you prescribe me some meds and stuff?

51:47

Because I just was like, yeah, just that prolonged exhaustion and fight or flight and

51:47

whatever.

51:53

just, one point I woke up and was like, I don't think I can move for a while.

51:57

And I just laid on the couch for probably a solid year, just processing.

52:04

I don't know how you want it.

52:07

There's only so much caretaker that you can give before yourself starts falling apart.

52:14

And I've seen this with my own life because my wife, I've always been the anxious one, the

52:14

one with depression, but she'll probably beat me for saying this, but she's not listening

52:25

right now.

52:27

full, but she's, she's been dealing with some anxiety problems herself.

52:33

Mm-hmm.

52:34

So, but so she's kind of, she's seen a different side of it.

52:40

She's been able to, I want to say have more empathy for what I was going through.

52:47

And she understands a little bit more of the anxiety side of it.

52:50

And, but then I come to understand what it's like more to be the caregiver.

52:56

So it's just this reverse role.

52:58

And I'm not saying that I still don't have my.

53:02

shit problems because I do.

53:06

But that's the thing, I think it's naive to think I'm a caregiver and he is sick, right?

53:13

Like I think that's what life is, is like we are in different roles all the time and I

53:13

think the more you identify with a role, the more God's gonna be like, oh, so funny that

53:22

you thought you were healthy, you know, and.

53:24

you just have to become flexible.

53:27

That's one thing I've learned, especially when it comes to the marriage side of things.

53:33

I know sometimes if I have one of my seizure episodes, I'm going to be down for a bit.

53:40

And I know that my wife will be able to take care of things.

53:43

But if she has something, I know she's going to be down for a bit.

53:49

Yeah, it's really made me evaluate like, you know, people have been like, you ever gonna

53:49

get married?

53:54

Because I already was kind of like one of those, I don't know if I'm ever gonna get

53:54

married kind of people.

53:58

And I said, ironically, I'm actually more likely to get married now than I was before I

53:58

got married because I could see how if it went well, it would go really well and the

54:06

benefits of it.

54:08

But I think more now than ever, I saw like, if I'm laying in a hospital bed and they turn

54:08

to my spouse and they say,

54:19

how do you want us to handle this?

54:21

I need to know that I can rely on them to make a decision that I would be comfortable

54:21

with.

54:26

It truly is like a partnership and I've always known that, but I've seen like, okay, when

54:26

you're not healthy enough to sign your paperwork, who are you entrusting to be there with

54:37

the pen in their hand?

54:39

And I think um it was like a really humbling, scary experience, but I think it also was

54:39

like, it just taught me a lot and...

54:47

Like I said, I'm really appreciative of him and I've honestly like done a lot of healing

54:47

and you know his picture pops up on Instagram and I'm just like, oh cutie and then just

54:57

keep moving like it doesn't, I don't feel anything toward it.

55:00

And how do you talk to him today?

55:04

Do you ever reach out to him now?

55:08

he called me on my birthday and he called me like one other time.

55:13

I think we didn't talk for the first year.

55:16

And then after about the first year he reached out and was like, can we chat?

55:19

And I think he, at that point was just a little sobered up and was kind of like, hey,

55:19

like, how's your family?

55:26

They were really good to me and how are you doing?

55:29

And so he and I are fine.

55:30

I don't, I try not to like,

55:33

I think we honestly still follow each other on Instagram.

55:35

It's one of those things where like, there's no romantic feeling in the least on either

55:35

side, but it's one of those like, we went through some stuff together.

55:44

So I'm gonna be tied to you forever.

55:46

have the respect and you still love him

55:48

Mm-hmm.

55:50

Yeah.

55:51

Yeah, I love him to pieces, but you'd have to rip off my own arm and feed it to me before

55:51

I'd kiss him.

56:00

And he said the same thing, but our last call was so funny because it was kind of one

56:00

those like, well, am I not talking yet?

56:04

And we were like, to be clear, I love you and like, I wish you well, but like.

56:09

we will never get back together and also I don't want to know if you're dating someone

56:09

else because it's just like we're not that kind of friend so but like if his mom were

56:18

supposed to pass or something like I would call him just because there's a tender heart in

56:18

my spot but or tender spot in my heart but not

56:28

It was the time that it was and it's in the past now.

56:33

So I'm kind of going back a little bit backwards from what you were just talking about a

56:33

few minutes ago because something popped up in my mind.

56:41

You mentioned there was about a year where you just kind of wanted to lay on the couch.

56:47

How are you doing now?

56:50

Do you still feel these kind of spouts of depression or anxiety or whatever you want to

56:50

call them?

56:55

Yeah, it's funny this whole thing I've been like in his mental health and his mental

56:55

health.

56:59

It's the exact like, that's what I did.

57:03

Right?

57:03

I'm like, wait, yeah, this wasn't a podcast on his mental health.

57:06

um That's the thing though, was in avoidance the whole time.

57:09

And so really once it like calmed down and everything was gone.

57:12

Yeah, I just laid on the couch kind of in shock.

57:16

And I just have not like, well, for a long time, probably the first year, I just could not

57:16

face

57:25

like carrying a job, um doing simple things, just like calling, like just going to like

57:25

Mother's Day.

57:34

Like I skipped Mother's Day because I was just like, I can't put on pants.

57:39

Things like that when you're just like, the depression is just like, I can't even face,

57:39

you know, driving five minutes down the road.

57:46

And so there's just a lot of things that you start to realize, like you're not processing

57:46

normally and...

57:53

the amount of exhaustion that you have um just kind of wins out.

57:57

And so yeah, there was a lot of anxiety over things I've never felt anxiety over before.

58:01

There's a lot of events that never caused me any worry that I just didn't opt into.

58:08

And really only recently, well, I started working for myself a couple of years ago.

58:14

So it's been about three years now.

58:16

And

58:17

I just started doing odd jobs because I was like, I can handle short little non-committal,

58:17

you know, things and then it's kind of slowly evolved.

58:25

so now I'm building something that I can actually, that works with my energy and my skills

58:25

and my whatever.

58:34

but yeah, it's taken me three years to get back to even somewhat normal.

58:37

And even now it's still, it's not the same.

58:42

I can't even say it's the same.

58:44

It's not the same normal.

58:45

I really think that once you hit a certain level of anxiety and depression, going back to

58:45

normal looks completely different because you have to find ways or techniques to deal with

59:00

it because it doesn't go away.

59:02

Yeah, and there's a certain level of like, um I've probably been fairly performative in my

59:02

life of like not being super vulnerable.

59:10

And this whole experience just like cracked me so wide open that like I have a really hard

59:10

time not being.

59:16

uh Well, I'm a lot more just like vulnerable and like willing to jump into that.

59:24

But it's interesting because that's not how like my friendships have always been.

59:29

And it's just really interesting how it comes up.

59:32

Cause like I was on Marco Polo responding to a friend and she's like, how are you doing?

59:37

And I haven't talked to her in like a decade, you know?

59:39

So it should be like, oh, I'm good.

59:40

How are you?

59:41

I just like, was like, I'm doing, and then I just started like sobbing, you know?

59:47

And I like couldn't figure out how to turn off the Marco Polo cause I was like panicking

59:47

and crying and I was like, so sorry.

59:55

And so that's, I've kind of gotten through that phase.

59:58

Um, but it's been hard because like, I was really devout and going to church and stuff for

59:58

a long time and just like, I can't even get out of bed in the morning and hold a job

1:00:08

normally.

1:00:08

And so there's been a lot of things that were like my go to stabilizing things that I

1:00:08

couldn't quite access.

1:00:15

And so now I'm finding myself just kind of like.

1:00:19

staring at the road ahead being like, I don't know what the next five years looks like,

1:00:19

because it's just like, it's not going to be what it was going to be.

1:00:27

It's a different road now.

1:00:29

I don't know what that looks like.

1:00:30

And so in some ways, it's really refreshing because I feel like I'm more in tune with

1:00:30

like, my real self and who I want to be and what I want.

1:00:36

And in other ways, you're like, have I just fundamentally broken the space time continuum

1:00:36

and I'm never going to?

1:00:45

I can fully relate to that.

1:00:49

To basically all of it that you just said, because I've had times where I haven't wanted

1:00:49

to work.

1:00:54

I've had times where Kim has had to basically push me to get out of the house.

1:01:01

Mm-hmm.

1:01:03

Yeah.

1:01:04

Yeah, and it's hard, you know, just being in, I could say like, as a single person, it's

1:01:04

hard because then you look toward partnering or finding, you know, community and it's

1:01:14

like, well, it's hard to consider that when I don't know if I can really show up reliably

1:01:14

for someone.

1:01:19

But then you think about it you're like, that's kind of what partnership is.

1:01:22

But then you also think about it and like, I have a brother who's going through, who has a

1:01:22

chronic illness and...

1:01:28

I know he's struggling a lot with like employment and that kind of thing and the wear and

1:01:28

tear that takes on a marriage.

1:01:34

And there's just like so many things where it's just a blessing if it goes straight, you

1:01:34

know, like if it just goes to what you thought, you know, just congrats to you, you know,

1:01:47

but other than that, it's like life is really messy and it's amazing when we get through

1:01:47

it.

1:01:53

Yeah, and it's like, if it just went straight, it's like, what would life be?

1:01:59

If it just went the way we all wanted it to go, I can tell you I'd be sitting in a bigger

1:01:59

house, probably have a bigger yard.

1:02:10

You know, it's, that's the thing though.

1:02:12

I'm grateful to be single with no children because I can lay on a couch for a year and a

1:02:12

parent can't do that, you know?

1:02:20

And so there's, there's just like, we all have these seasons and I feel like there's, I

1:02:20

probably had it as easy as it could get in terms of like, had a supportive family and

1:02:33

I don't ever claim to have the hardest marriage.

1:02:35

say I have a good honorable mention for like a wild story because there's stuff that

1:02:35

happened that was like, that was wild.

1:02:42

But a lot of people have it a lot harder than me, you know?

1:02:47

And I just think it's like, I wish I had a better manual or something I could pass along

1:02:47

to the next person that's going to experience it, but it really is just like, I don't know

1:03:00

what to even say.

1:03:02

It's definitely a learn as you go type thing because everybody handles these types of

1:03:02

situations completely different.

1:03:09

Mm-hmm.

1:03:12

Do you feel like there's something that society could do to better support families with

1:03:12

conditions like schizoaffective disorder before the relationships completely collapse?

1:03:29

um Yeah, I mean, there's a certain level of education, right, because I think um

1:03:40

when you feel like...

1:03:43

embarrassed like, oh, something weird is happening in my marriage.

1:03:46

It's not happening in everyone else's.

1:03:48

There's an element of like, I want to keep that to myself.

1:03:52

And part of that, I think is healthy.

1:03:54

Because I don't think it's good to be like, this is what I'm struggling with every little

1:03:54

thing.

1:04:01

But I think there is a world where like, just having a better understanding of those types

1:04:01

of things, like what is psychosis and what causes it and

1:04:10

know, what's the approach to tackling it?

1:04:12

Because I could, there's a lot of people still that are like, I can't be medicated because

1:04:12

there's a stigma and I've, I'm decades past that.

1:04:19

Like I'm like, sounds good or whatever, you know, but you know, there's still stigma on so

1:04:19

many different elements of it, of therapy, of medication, of just being less than perfect,

1:04:31

you know, and even in our society, just like, feels like a huge...

1:04:37

huge thing to raise your hand to, but it's just kind of like, it's not in some ways it's

1:04:37

like, it shouldn't be as big a deal.

1:04:42

And in other ways we should make a much bigger deal about it.

1:04:44

Because I do think to have occasional quirky anxiety or whatever, and belong bipolar or

1:04:44

something are very different.

1:04:53

And they, the spectrum needs to be clearer.

1:04:56

That these are not just like, it's not that close on the spectrum.

1:05:01

The spectrum's pretty wide and it can happen to anyone at any time.

1:05:05

It's not just for the person who's

1:05:08

lived a certain lifestyle and they deserve it.

1:05:10

Like it's just like all these like weird things that people disassociate from the reality

1:05:10

of like anybody's sibling or parent could become this.

1:05:21

Yeah, I agree in it.

1:05:22

It's basically what you said, education.

1:05:24

Like, I feel like...

1:05:28

see I'm trying to think how to work this even as when I started this podcast I knew little

1:05:28

bits pieces of mental health but from the stories I've heard I've obviously know more now

1:05:39

but schizo effective was one the newer ones to me in the past like six months it's yeah

1:05:50

approach, you know, like I felt very fortunate because we went to a therapist who was

1:05:50

like, go see this guy.

1:05:57

So he referred us to that guy who then was like, this is what it is.

1:06:00

And he said, this is psychosis, but if you go meet with this guy, he'll actually give you

1:06:00

a diagnosis.

1:06:05

So then we went to him and it was like a total miracle because I called him because I just

1:06:05

got referred by people, you know, and

1:06:14

when I was like, hey, I'm just calling because like this is going on and like money is

1:06:14

tight, but like I'm trying to figure out what's happening.

1:06:21

And he was like, oh, wait, your last name is this.

1:06:24

He's like, do your parents live over here?

1:06:26

And I was like, yeah.

1:06:26

He's like, oh, your parents and my in-laws live next door to each other.

1:06:29

Like, I'll just do it for you for free.

1:06:32

And it's normally like a three month wait and like thousands of dollars.

1:06:35

And I was like literally crying at work in the closet, just like, thank you so much

1:06:35

because thank you.

1:06:41

I just feel like I can't afford this, you know, and

1:06:44

So it was a complete miracle, but even then it's just like to have the ability to like, I

1:06:44

can take off work and write to the doctor.

1:06:53

Like there's just so many things where it's like, some people don't have that flexibility.

1:06:59

Just, it's a full-time job.

1:07:02

Just manage health.

1:07:04

And that is such a hard place to be regardless of what the health thing is, if it's

1:07:04

physical or mental or whatever, it's just like there's.

1:07:14

Sometimes you need a job to manage that and that's not always doable.

1:07:20

That's for sure.

1:07:21

I agree with everything you said right there.

1:07:25

I really wish like, you know, I could just become super wealthy and then I would just

1:07:25

basically go stand at the doctor's office and just throw out money because that's the

1:07:36

thing is it's like if people can't work because they're sick

1:07:43

then they, yeah, it's like, bills and then it's like make some sicker because everything

1:07:43

runs on money.

1:07:50

And so just is such a hard position to be in.

1:07:53

And you're like, I'm just trying to like, live.

1:07:56

I'm not even trying to live a lavish life.

1:07:58

Like, I'm not even asking for anything fancy.

1:08:02

I'm just trying to like keep the love of my life alive, you know, and, and that shouldn't

1:08:02

be so hard, but there's just like so much red tape and stuff that.

1:08:13

I really feel bad because I, I feel very blessed because it happened right away.

1:08:17

I was in, I was already in my thirties.

1:08:20

I was financially established.

1:08:21

So although I spent the entirety of my life savings, I had savings.

1:08:26

You know what I mean?

1:08:27

So it's like, yeah, I have $400 in the bank.

1:08:30

That doesn't feel comfortable.

1:08:31

But also other people have negative hundreds of thousands of dollars from things.

1:08:37

And I, you know, my husband and I got divorced and he went back with his family and

1:08:43

I don't have children to manage.

1:08:44

There's so many harder situations than what I have.

1:08:47

So um I just think I want oh to save the world with paying for medical bills.

1:08:57

It doesn't take long for them to stack up.

1:09:00

No, not at all.

1:09:01

And that's the thing, it's like so wild.

1:09:03

It's like you go to the doctor and they're like, it's free for now.

1:09:06

You get a bill and you're like, what the?

1:09:09

And then you're expected to have the energy to go show up and fight the bill.

1:09:12

And I'm like, no, this is a racket and it needs to stop immediately.

1:09:18

I had to take my wife to the hospital a few weeks ago.

1:09:24

With our last baby, she went into preterm labor.

1:09:28

And so she thought something was going on with this one that's due any day now.

1:09:33

And she just got the bill for it.

1:09:36

We weren't even in there for maybe an hour and a half.

1:09:40

It was $1,900.

1:09:42

I mean, we didn't have to...

1:09:44

Due to insurance, obviously don't have to pay that much, but that's what the bill was

1:09:44

written for.

1:09:48

I was like, for real?

1:09:51

They didn't really even do any, they did like one test and put a monitor on her and that

1:09:51

was it.

1:09:58

That's all.

1:09:59

And I was like, about died.

1:10:02

That's what's so, the whole thing is just so wild and you know, and you're thrust into

1:10:02

these situations, right?

1:10:08

There's, I thought this with car accidents or with mental health, it's like, what you're

1:10:08

gonna take him to a mental hospital, is that billed differently?

1:10:18

Like, how do I know that's in network?

1:10:20

Like, there's just so many things where it's just like,

1:10:24

It's impossible to do all of the research ahead of time to know how to handle every

1:10:24

possible situation that can be thrown at you.

1:10:29

And then all of sudden you're just in the world's most stressful situation trying to

1:10:29

navigate like paperwork.

1:10:36

This is the last thing I need is to think about this.

1:10:39

then sometimes, maybe this is the conspiracy side of me, sometimes I wonder, well, you

1:10:39

you're going through all this trauma and life's just throwing all these obstacles at you.

1:10:53

How do we know people just aren't taking advantage of us?

1:10:57

they are.

1:10:57

Yeah, that's the thing.

1:10:59

know, that's because then, you know, there's so many people that that is the case.

1:11:04

Like, it's wild to think that.

1:11:05

So it's yeah, it's just been really eye opening and humbling and scary and all the things

1:11:05

when you just all of a sudden are like, this is a whole aspect of life that I've never

1:11:17

been privy to.

1:11:19

And now you're like, my gosh, there are people that have dealt with this for decades.

1:11:23

and we'll continue to deal with it and that's just where it's like the system needs to

1:11:23

fundamentally shift.

1:11:31

So I have like one more question here and two follow up questions.

1:11:41

If someone listening feels ashamed for struggling in a relationship affected by mental

1:11:41

illness, what would you want them to hear today?

1:12:00

Just think back to myself, you're talking about specifically the caretaker, like the

1:12:00

spouse.

1:12:09

Yeah, it's

1:12:15

I don't even know what to say other than just like, you're not a bad person for not

1:12:15

knowing how to react to something that you never planned.

1:12:25

And that doesn't mean that you can't try to handle it better or whatever, but there's a

1:12:25

certain element of kindness that you need to have with yourself just to like get through

1:12:36

it.

1:12:37

Um, one thing my mom said that I didn't do a great job of, but she kind of put it in

1:12:37

perspective was just basically like, when you look back on this, like you want to be proud

1:12:48

of how you handled things.

1:12:50

Cause at some point this is going to be over with and you're going to have to, you know,

1:12:50

account for it.

1:12:56

And so it's just kind of like, try to handle it in the way that you'd be proud of if this

1:12:56

were over.

1:13:02

And that's a really hard thing to actually do in the moment, but.

1:13:06

it's it's true on the other end or if there is no other end then at least you know you're

1:13:06

trying to be the best person you can through it so that you're proud of yourself and i

1:13:15

think because i think that's the hardest part is you're gonna lose a lot in all of this

1:13:15

you know you're losing relationships and expectations and everything but like the one

1:13:25

thing you have control over is just the narrative you know like that's how you how you

1:13:25

react and how you know

1:13:34

And so that's not great advice because it's just so like, good luck.

1:13:39

That's, no, that's, I like it because it's, if you think about it, it's pretty simple.

1:13:44

It's, and I don't always know if there's great advice to be given in these situations

1:13:44

because in all honesty, they're, it's hard, it's tough.

1:13:58

Yeah.

1:13:59

And so there's not.

1:14:00

It's a custom experience for everyone.

1:14:02

And at the end of the day, it's your story and whoever it is that you're helping.

1:14:07

I just, I'm like, you know, don't, I can't say don't give as much because it's like, I

1:14:07

don't really regret working myself to the bone because I have no regrets about how much I

1:14:20

put in.

1:14:20

But at the same time, someone who maybe gave up earlier than me,

1:14:24

and still has the ability to work good for them, you know?

1:14:29

So there's not really a right way or a wrong way to handle it.

1:14:31

It's just trying to be something that you can live with the outcome and be proud of

1:14:31

yourself because that doesn't need to be an added weight that you deal with for the next

1:14:38

decade.

1:14:40

but sending love to whoever you are.

1:14:45

It's not easy.

1:14:47

This one I asked because sometimes people come on here to you know promote something which

1:14:47

you're not really doing you're just honestly sharing a story but is there How can if

1:14:58

you're interested like how can people get a hold of you like is there a website you want

1:14:58

to throw people to you or anything?

1:15:04

Totally up totally up to you

1:15:06

so I started while doing all of this, like the nine to five does not work when you're when

1:15:06

you're kicked out of that.

1:15:16

And so I started like my own company, you could say it's like me and a couple of friends.

1:15:23

But um basically, it's like to help people find alternative.

1:15:28

alternatives to nine to fives.

1:15:30

So if there's somebody out there that's like this nine to five thing is not working for me

1:15:30

and they're looking to start their own business or just need some other side hustle kind

1:15:41

of way to make money or just a way to like approach life differently.

1:15:44

If they want to, they can, you know, reach out to me online or our website's

1:15:44

chroniccreative.co and it's just about like, I'm basically just trying to help people

1:15:53

figure out how to live a fulfilling life.

1:15:55

when life doesn't exactly go the way they want.

1:16:00

that's just a resource there if anybody wants to chatter is like looking for that because

1:16:00

that's just kind of it came out of necessity when my own nine to five just wasn't an

1:16:10

option anymore.

1:16:10

So I've got resources and I'm doing it really just like help people get to that next spot

1:16:10

of sanity and safety.

1:16:19

I love it.

1:16:21

the last thing here is we covered a lot of ground in our conversation.

1:16:27

Is there anything that we did not bring up that you'd like to bring up?

1:16:34

Um, I feel like I jumped into triggered mode a little bit and kind of, you know, told a

1:16:34

lot of his story.

1:16:41

So I want to just reiterate that like, if you are the person who is struggling with the

1:16:41

mental illness, like the same thing to the person who's the caregiver is like, neither one

1:16:51

of you want this for you, you know, and you don't deserve this.

1:16:55

And this is not like, again, it's not a character flaw.

1:16:58

It's just like, this happens to be the hand you're dealt.

1:17:00

So just know that like,

1:17:02

if there is someone in your life that's trying to take care of you, like...

1:17:08

Just, hope you both love each other, you know, and you both, you're both having a hard

1:17:08

time.

1:17:12

So if you can both be patient with each other, trying to get through it.

1:17:16

But you know, my heart goes out to you because this is not a one-sided thing and this is

1:17:16

not happening as a result of like your bad behavior.

1:17:25

This is just a really hard thing to even ask to go through and I wish you both all the

1:17:25

best.

1:17:32

I love it.

1:17:33

Well, Oste, thank you so much for coming on the show and thank you for being a lifesaver

1:17:33

and jumping on in a day.

1:17:42

So just a little audience side note, uh Oste is a friend of my wife's.

1:17:48

So my wife actually reached out to her and said, you want to do this?

1:17:53

And she accepted.

1:17:54

So thank you, thank you.

1:17:56

to help.

1:17:59

think you have a great story and I thank you so much for sharing it.

1:18:04

I admire the person you are and how you try to make things work.

1:18:11

Thanks for having a platform like this.

1:18:13

think there's a lot of people out there going through a lot of really unique things and

1:18:13

it's good to know that we're not the only one.

1:18:20

So I appreciate it.

1:18:23

And thank you to all those that are listening.

1:18:25

The best thing you can do for us right now is if this resonated with you or if you know

1:18:25

somebody that is struggling, please share this podcast and give us a follow and leave a

1:18:35

review.

1:18:36

Thanks again.

1:18:37

Until next time.