When Pushing Through Makes You Sicker: Chronic Pain, Opioids, and Redefining Resilience | Nancy Deyo

0:57

Nancy, why don't you start us off by

0:57

telling us about your journey?

1:03

Nice to be here, Travis. I was a very

1:03

hard-charging,

1:09

very ambitious CEO working

1:13

in Silicon Valley until my business

1:13

started to run out of money.

1:18

And like so many companies in Silicon

1:18

Valley that start up,

1:23

nine out of ten of them fail, but the ones

1:23

we love to talk about are

1:26

the ones that make it public and are a big

1:26

hit.

1:30

But for me, I ended up having to sell my

1:30

business to my arch rival,

1:34

which was like a stab in the back.

1:37

So after that happened, I thought I have

1:37

to do something really significant

1:43

to prove that I'm not a failure,

1:45

to prove that I can still succeed at

1:45

something really big.

1:49

So I set out to climb Mount Kilimanjaro.

1:53

I had always been fascinated with high

1:53

altitude climbing.

1:56

And my husband and I had spent time in

1:56

Tibet and Nepal and India and Peru.

2:01

And if it wasn't one place, it was

2:01

another.

2:04

Just the closer we could get to the sky,

2:06

the better. But I decided that I had to go

2:06

and summit one of the seven tallest peaks

2:12

in the world. And that stood in Tanzania,

2:15

Mount Kilimanjaro. So we trained hard for

2:15

it.

2:19

I was sure this was going to be my

2:19

redemption.

2:23

But on the weeks before the climb started,

2:27

I injured my back training on a broken

2:27

stairmaster of all things.

2:31

But since I was an athlete, I just kind of

2:31

compartmentalized it and shoved

2:36

it down and said, I'm doing this climb

2:36

anyway.

2:38

I have to do this. I have to prove myself.

2:41

And so I decided to go to Africa.

2:43

And the first day of the climb,

2:46

I was already in trouble. I had to

2:46

relinquish my pack to a porter because

2:50

I couldn't stand the weight of it on my

2:50

spine.

2:54

And the second day I was having difficulty

2:54

sitting.

3:00

And so after the hike ended, I had to go

3:00

and lie down until morning,

3:05

hoping that my back would recover by the

3:05

time it was time to hike.

3:09

And on the third day, the team fashioned

3:09

me a back brace out of duct tape

3:14

and an inflatable pillow to hold my back

3:14

together.

3:17

So as the days wore on, things got worse,

3:20

the altitude got to me, it was

3:22

pain and scree and rock until there I was

3:22

at 16,000 feet,

3:28

unable to move my legs. And I felt like

3:28

somebody

3:34

was driving a steel rod through my spine.

3:36

And I had two thoughts. The first thought

3:36

was that I could actually be bleeding out.

3:43

And I could end up with my name on a rock

3:43

like so many other climbers

3:48

had done who had tried to scale the

3:48

world's highest mountains.

3:51

And the other thought I had was I've been

3:51

so aggressive my whole life,

3:57

pushing through everything, trying to

3:57

force my way from one goal to another.

4:01

And I tried to do this on this mountain

4:01

and it is not working.

4:05

And you might think, Travis, that that

4:05

would be the moment that

4:10

my definition of what it meant to be

4:10

resilient would change.

4:13

But sadly, it took 15 years of hell and

4:13

chronic pain that followed.

4:20

for me to learn that resilience had to be

4:20

finding a different way to live.

4:24

So that was the beginning.

4:27

Well, we're on the same page there because

4:27

with my so I have a s

4:32

a seizure disorder and those started back

4:32

in two thousand nine and

4:37

it took me let's see, until two thousand

4:37

twenty-four to actually start really

4:44

getting the help that I need and that was

4:44

years of anxiety and depression as well.

4:48

And looking back I was like if I knew back

4:48

then what I know now,

4:53

I would be a completely different person

4:53

but

4:56

It took me years to actually start

4:56

building up that resilience.

5:00

How true that is and how many years pass

5:00

before we often figure out

5:05

the thing that's right in front of us.

5:07

And that was my story as well.

5:10

It's this crazy it's I I love seeing the

5:10

overlap,

5:14

even though we lived like two different

5:14

things.

5:18

Absolutely. So, you know, unlike what I

5:18

thought,

5:22

I didn't die that night on the mountain,

5:24

but I got carried down on piggyback by two

5:24

porters who were strong enough

5:30

to get me to safety. And I thought,

5:32

okay, now I'm a ~ mess,

5:36

but at least I can go get medical help.

5:38

So my husband and I ~ were evacuated to

5:38

Nairobi,

5:41

Kenya, where an orthopedist

5:45

Took a look at my an MRI and an x-ray that

5:45

was taken and walked into

5:49

my room and said, I have great news,

5:51

you're gonna be fine. You just need bed

5:51

rest,

5:54

which you can do right here in the

5:54

hospital in Nairobi.

5:57

So I spent the next week under the gentle

5:57

care of lovely nurses there

6:03

who fed me pain pills and gentle comfort

6:03

while I tried to sleep

6:09

my way to recovery.

6:11

And when I wasn't any better, I ended up

6:11

traveling to London where

6:16

I saw another orthopedist who looked at my

6:16

films and told me I was fine,

6:19

but I just needed physical therapy.

6:21

Which I did. And sadly that went nowhere.

6:26

And by the time the third doctor,

6:28

my hometown doc in San Francisco,

6:30

gave me the same diagnosis, but just put

6:30

me on OxyContin this time,

6:36

I just felt this huge disconnect.

6:39

I knew something was deeply wrong with my

6:39

body.

6:41

I thought something was really,

6:44

really hurt internally.

6:47

But the message I was getting from the

6:47

doctors was totally different from that.

6:52

And that's when your reality just starts

6:52

to shift and you start to wonder

6:56

am I crazy? Am I making this up?

6:58

I just I trust my body. I know it's I

6:58

think it's telling me the truth,

7:03

but reality starts to crumble beneath you.

7:06

The crazy thing is it took

7:10

Several

7:10

more months, a lot more testing before a

7:10

doctor finally realized that

7:15

I had fractured vertebrae, a smashed disc,

7:18

and that I needed a spinal fusion and I

7:18

needed it right away.

7:21

But the unfortunate thing was by that time

7:21

I was very chemically dependent

7:26

on oxycontin and the dosage had kept

7:26

increasing as my pain escalated.

7:34

that's that's scary stuff. And sometimes

7:34

it's just me thinking this out loud.

7:40

I feel like the the medical or doctors can

7:40

be really quick

7:46

to prescribe stuff instead of getting to

7:46

the bottom of what really needs

7:51

to like what work really needs to be done.

7:55

Absolutely. And you know, my story was

7:55

really not that different.

7:59

After surgery, the pain was excruciating.

8:03

The oxycontin became fentanyl.

8:05

And to say that I was anxious and

8:05

depressed would be a huge understatement.

8:11

It was like my life had just turned upside

8:11

down and unable to sit,

8:15

I had to spend my days lying down.

8:17

So, you know, there I lay, not a CEO in a

8:17

business suit,

8:22

striding across an airport, but I had on

8:24

hospital pants and a hoodie and I was

8:24

stuck lying down with a pile

8:28

of opioids next to me on a table.

8:30

And I just thought, I I don't I don't even

8:30

know who this person is.

8:34

I don't recognize myself. I don't know

8:34

what's happened to my life.

8:37

And I still remember the first time I went

8:37

to see my surgeon after my fusion.

8:44

And I was in so much pain I'd been lying

8:44

on the floor of

8:49

his waiting room because I just couldn't

8:49

sit.

8:52

And

8:54

He they took me back into the exam room

8:54

and he walked in and he had my films

8:59

in his hand and he said, Your surgery was

8:59

just flawless.

9:03

I couldn't be happier. And I said,

9:06

my God, my pain is like an eight on a

9:06

scale of one to ten,

9:09

which by the way, I hate the pain scale.

9:11

I'm I would imagine most of your listeners

9:11

do too.

9:14

Yes.

9:15

It's just so unhelpful and so not

9:15

individual,

9:18

but un unrelated to that, I did tell him

9:18

it was an eight on a scale of one to ten.

9:23

And he

9:24

He looked at me and and he looked me

9:24

straight in the eye and he said,

9:28

You know, you seem really nervous.

9:32

I I just I feel like I need to refer you

9:32

to psych.

9:35

And in that moment, the words anxious and

9:35

depressed were melted into

9:41

my medical record. And as I'm sure many of

9:41

your listeners have experienced,

9:47

the moment that is documented in your

9:47

record,

9:50

it can change the kind of care that you

9:50

receive.

9:53

~ yeah, for sure. And it's that's almost

9:53

comes to be the only thing that they they

10:00

want to think about.

10:03

Absolutely. So, you know, my s my short

10:03

story from there is that

10:08

for five years I continued to be tested.

10:13

I ended up hospitalized multiple times.

10:16

They never found anything, either in

10:16

orthopedics

10:20

or pharmacology or neurology or physiotry.

10:25

The tests always came back normal and they

10:25

just

10:30

had done everything that they could,

10:32

but the pain was escalating and so was my

10:32

opioid use.

10:35

So in an act of virtual last ditch

10:35

desperation,

10:40

I went to the Mayo Clinic in Rochester,

10:42

Minnesota for a three-week pain rehab and

10:42

drug detox program.

10:48

And, you know, it's a very aggressive

10:48

program that I have to admit,

10:52

looking back pushed me harder than I even

10:52

used to push myself,

10:56

which still was

10:58

ridiculous and over the top. But in week

10:58

one,

11:00

they pulled all the opioids and all the

11:00

supporting drugs away.

11:05

And we can talk about withdrawal

11:05

separately,

11:08

but it is so real and it's for me it was

11:08

physical,

11:13

it was neurological, it was emotional.

11:15

It was very difficult. And in weeks two

11:15

and three they forced back physical

11:19

function. So I went from laying on the

11:19

floor of the conference room

11:23

to starting to walk, forcing myself to

11:23

sit.

11:27

Forcing myself to do the activities of

11:27

daily life.

11:29

And I started to feel a sense of hope

11:29

because

11:34

I was actually getting back on my feet.

11:37

And I remember calling my pain doc the

11:37

last day,

11:40

and I was pretty high. And I said,

11:42

This program's like amazing. I'm off the

11:42

drugs.

11:47

I'm back on my feet for the first time in

11:47

five years.

11:50

And I remember he was really metered and

11:50

understated.

11:55

And he just said, Okay, I'll see you when

11:55

you get back.

11:59

And I I was kind of pissed off.

12:02

I mean, I remember thinking,

12:03

Yeah.

12:03

why isn't he happy for me? I mean,

12:05

I feel like my life is starting to turn

12:05

around.

12:07

But I got home and two days later,

12:10

I was in the ER for intractable pain.

12:13

I just I couldn't handle the push.

12:15

It was too much, too fast, which sadly was

12:15

what my doctor had suspected,

12:21

but had obviously supported me in.

12:26

Doing the program because I thought there

12:26

was nothing else for me.

12:29

And 10 days later,

12:32

after being tested every way from Sunday,

12:35

he walked in and he said, You know,

12:38

your tests just aren't showing anything.

12:41

You know, I we will help you as much as we

12:41

can with the pain,

12:46

but we're gonna discharge you and send you

12:46

home.

12:50

And in that moment, my husband turned

12:50

around and went.

12:56

looking

12:57

for a nursing home to put me in.

12:58

I was 45 years old and that was not where

12:58

I belonged,

13:03

but the medical system had done its best.

13:05

I was a complicated case. There was

13:05

nothing more they could do for me.

13:10

And they were basically sending me home to

13:10

a different life.

13:14

And I realized that it was kind of on me

13:14

and it

13:19

was up to me at this point to find my way

13:19

to a different future.

13:27

And maybe the all this pushing I'd been

13:27

doing all my life,

13:32

which continued when I got sick,

13:34

and every time I'd feel this much better,

13:37

I'd jump back up and end up crashing and

13:37

having a setback that

13:44

set me back further than I had started.

13:46

So that pattern I realized of pushing

13:46

might

13:53

be actually making me sicker.

13:56

Instead of better.

13:56

And at this

13:57

at this point, how many years has this how

13:57

long have this been?

14:00

What does the timeline look like?

14:01

it had been six years.

14:02

Six years?

14:04

Yeah, six years of living horizontally on

14:04

the opioids,

14:07

really with no hope for anything but a a

14:07

continued life

14:12

of this pain and anxiety.

14:17

So it was

14:17

Yeah.

14:18

a pretty morbid place to be. But I

14:18

realized that I had

14:24

to do something differently if I had any

14:24

hope of any semblance of

14:29

a life coming back.

14:31

And I started trying everything.

14:32

I tried energy healing, I tried hypnotism,

14:37

I tried rapid eye movement, I tried a

14:37

shaman.

14:42

I just thought I have to go outside of

14:42

what is being provided to

14:46

me by Western medicine. And none of that

14:46

worked.

14:49

But thank God the Mayo Clinic had referred

14:49

me to a wonderful therapist named

14:56

Susan.

14:56

Who had worked with breast cancer

14:56

survivors on finding a new normal after

15:00

diagnosis. And we were sitting one day.

15:04

I remember I was lying on my couch and she

15:04

was seated in a chair next to me.

15:08

And she said, You know, I feel like you

15:08

think your only options are to fight,

15:14

which is what you usually do, or just to

15:14

give up.

15:17

But you don't have to do either of those.

15:19

You just have to give in a little,

15:21

enough to stop fighting yourself.

15:24

And what

15:26

She was really talking about was

15:26

acceptance and maybe having

15:32

a terrible day without labeling it a

15:32

failure.

15:35

And she called it the new normal.

15:38

And I remember saying to her, I hate that.

15:39

I hate that phrase. I just hate that

15:39

because it represented this

15:42

This is

15:45

dull, black and white, monochromatic,

15:47

horizontal, awful life that I was living.

15:51

And it wasn't.

15:53

Who I used to be and it wasn't how I saw

15:53

myself,

15:55

Mm-hmm.

15:56

but I realized I'd have to let go of that

15:56

person and try to start over

16:02

if I'd any chance of living a life that

16:02

wasn't this doomed existence that

16:07

I was living.

16:09

Yeah, it's it's so frustrating that it

16:09

took takes so many years to

16:14

get to that point. But I I w I do have a

16:14

question for you here.

16:19

Please

16:19

~ so you've described your opioid ~

16:19

dependency.

16:24

What do you wish people understood about

16:24

how easily chronic pain

16:28

can lead someone down that road?

16:34

Wow. For me, the crazy thing is it started

16:34

the day I got carried

16:39

off of Mount Kilimanjaro. You know,

16:42

usually it starts with surgery or after a

16:42

a a hospital visit or a bunch of testing.

16:48

But a famous mountaineer who was filming

16:48

an IMAX movie on Kilimanjaro

16:54

had run into my husband who was telling

16:54

him the story of my injury

16:58

and getting carried off a mountain,

17:00

and he handed him a handful of

17:03

Vicodin, which is an opioid, and said,

17:07

you know, I always carry these with me in

17:07

case somebody breaks a leg or

17:09

an arm and they have to get to safety

17:09

before they can be extracted.

17:15

And I hope this will help you get to

17:15

Kenya.

17:18

And little did I know that this opioid

17:25

dependence for me, they didn't just

17:25

relieve pain,

17:28

they just taught my body that it couldn't

17:28

function without them.

17:31

And I think I just

17:33

I wish that what people knew was that

17:33

suddenly you're not taking them

17:38

to feel better. You're taking them because

17:38

you're afraid of feeling worse.

17:42

And what becomes tolerance builds and

17:42

dependence follows,

17:49

and then suddenly you might even be

17:49

seeking them.

17:52

~ I would say that I was on the red line

17:52

between dependence and addiction,

17:58

but it's a very scary.

18:00

Feeling to know that it's something that

18:00

you need.

18:04

And for me, I

18:05

Yeah.

18:06

think my realization happened years later

18:06

when I

18:09

Mm-hmm.

18:10

was lying with a friend, lying down when a

18:10

friend was visiting,

18:15

and I was obsessed with not engaging with

18:15

her and not visiting,

18:20

but I was obsessed with my next fentanyl

18:20

patch.

18:23

to the point where I asked her to go and

18:23

retrieve it out of my medicine cabinet

18:27

and put it on me a day before I was

18:27

supposed to have it,

18:31

because I thought she would do something

18:31

that my husband wouldn't.

18:33

Yeah.

18:34

And

18:34

I remember she had tears in her eyes when

18:34

I asked her the question.

18:38

And I just realized, I think we both

18:38

realized that I was really in trouble.

18:44

Yeah, that's so just so scary to me that

18:44

it all that

18:50

and it's just doesn't even take that much

18:50

time.

18:52

I mean I've seen some friends go through

18:52

you know,

18:57

being addicted to the painkillers and

18:57

stuff and it heard s their stories

19:01

of how they had to get off of them.

19:03

And it just is scary because you just

19:03

never know what can happen.

19:09

Absolutely. You know, for me, I failed the

19:09

first time at the Mayo Clinic because

19:14

that detox, I ended up relapsing.

19:19

And I think even I think opioid relapse

19:19

rates are as high as 60%.

19:23

I think they're really a high.

19:24

Yeah, they are pretty high. Yeah.

19:24

Not sure if that's the right number.

19:27

But I did ultimately get off the drugs,

19:30

but it took me, you know, 15 years of

19:30

dependence.

19:35

And it took an entire year under my pain

19:35

doctor's very,

19:39

very intentional care. And each step of

19:39

peeling back that onion

19:45

was really like Chinese water torture.

19:48

I mean, everybody who's gone through it

19:48

will recognize this.

19:50

At every step down the ladder of your

19:50

opioid use,

19:57

you'll go through sleeplessness,

20:00

probably nausea, anxiety.

20:03

Sometimes I felt like my skin was crawling

20:03

and I had to take Valium

20:07

to calm myself down. And it took weeks for

20:07

my brain to regulate.

20:12

And when it finally did, we'd have to

20:12

start over with the next step.

20:17

And at each step, my terror was that the

20:17

pain would return in force.

20:21

I mean, that's always the scariest thing

20:21

for anybody who's covering,

20:26

masking the severity of that pain or

20:26

dulling it with an opioid.

20:32

Is that the pain will return?

20:35

And would you s say that was like the

20:35

worst part of the withdrawal

20:38

is ~ just imagining that the pain would

20:38

return?

20:43

Such a good question. You know,

20:45

I could deal with all the other symptoms.

20:46

I really could. I got adjusted to being

20:46

sleepless.

20:50

I got adjusted to feeling a little bit

20:50

sick and to not eating.

20:53

And the anxiety had been part of my life

20:53

for as long as I could remember.

20:57

But the fear of pain, that was the thing I

20:57

couldn't control.

21:00

It was terrifying.

21:04

And now I wanna I want to switch gears a

21:04

little bit here to more

21:06

Sure.

21:07

of the anxiety, depression side of things.

21:09

Did you know that that's what I'm trying

21:09

to think of how to phrase this.

21:15

Let me re ask this in a different way.

21:18

So when I was going through my medical

21:18

problems and I was experiencing anxiety

21:23

and depression for the first time,

21:24

I didn't know what it was and I was in

21:24

denial about it for years.

21:28

What did that look like?

21:30

for you when it came on. Did you were you

21:30

aware what you were going through

21:33

at that point? Or did it take you some

21:33

time to actually admit,

21:37

Okay, well, I have something mentally

21:37

wrong as well.

21:43

A pretty optimistic person most of my

21:43

life,

21:46

and any anxiety that I might have had as a

21:46

kid was pretty low-lying

21:52

and pretty not serious. So I felt like I

21:57

was struck after my injury with something

21:57

that was just

22:02

the heaviest cloud over my head.

22:05

My limbs were heavy, my speech was heavy,

22:10

I felt like I was.

22:13

Crawling my way through peanut butter.

22:15

I mean, it's a it was a really frightening

22:15

feeling that,

22:18

you know, not wanting to get out of bed.

22:21

And even if I could, I'd have to be lying

22:21

down anyways.

22:24

So the future is pretty grim

22:30

and it's very easy to kind of

22:30

catastrophize that your life is over.

22:35

And, you know, were there suicidal

22:35

thoughts?

22:38

Actually, yeah. I mean, it was so bad.

22:43

That I'm not certain whether it was

22:43

drug-induced or not,

22:48

but I had been put on Adavan,

22:52

which is a really, really powerful

22:52

benzodiazepine and anti-anxiety

22:57

med that's usually used after surgery,

22:59

but I was put on it because my anxiety was

22:59

just off the charts.

23:04

And after a couple of weeks, when I was

23:04

running low on prescription,

23:09

I called the pain team at my hospital.

23:12

To get a refill, and they said,

23:14

You've been on it long enough.

23:16

Stop. I mean, just like that. No

23:16

titration,

23:19

no nothing. And I went into such shock

23:19

that I remember calling out

23:24

to my husband from our bedroom one night,

23:26

and I said, I'm gonna hurt myself.

23:30

Something really bad's gonna happen.

23:32

And we rushed to the ER and

23:35

Turns out not only was I depressed and

23:35

just anxious out of my mind,

23:40

but I was going through huge withdrawal

23:40

from being yanked off of

23:44

a very powerful drug. So I think these

23:44

things are just so inextricably entwined

23:51

sometimes it's really difficult to know

23:51

like what truth is.

23:55

But all I know is it was dark and it was

23:55

heavy.

23:59

Yeah, I can definitely relate to you

23:59

there.

24:02

It's the there's so many pieces of your

24:02

story that over like connect with mine

24:07

or overshadow mine is it's

24:08

kinda it's kinda cool to see. Not that I

24:08

want anybody

24:15

to go through anything like this,

24:18

but I I love to hear the stories and how

24:18

they connect.

24:23

Absolutely. I mean, the whole reason I

24:23

think you do what you do and I do what

24:27

I do is that maybe somebody will see

24:27

themselves

24:29

Mm-hmm.

24:30

in our words and maybe something that

24:30

happened to us or something that

24:33

we did will create a new idea.

24:36

Because I mean we all we can't do this in

24:36

isolation.

24:41

We have to do this as a community and the

24:41

supports that we need.

24:46

may not be live supports in our household.

24:49

They might be coming from somewhere else,

24:51

which includes being online. I mean,

24:52

Mm. Yeah.

24:53

it's funny,

24:53

at the time that I was sick, the online

24:53

world was very nascent.

24:58

So there weren't online communities of

24:58

people that could support each other.

25:02

~ and I remember that my doctors thought I

25:02

needed something and they sent me

25:08

to a a live in-person support group,

25:10

which existed at the time.

25:13

And my husband and I walked into this room

25:13

and I had to lie down,

25:16

which was normal for me. And we started

25:16

going around the room,

25:19

introducing each other. And 90% of the

25:19

people in that room

25:24

had stage four pancreatic cancer.

25:27

And I thought, my God, what am I doing

25:27

here?

25:29

I mean, I this this isn't fair for me to

25:29

be a witness to the pain in this room.

25:36

Where are the people that have chronic

25:36

pain who are

25:42

for one reason or another, living like I'm

25:42

living.

25:45

But there wasn't, it just wasn't

25:45

understood well.

25:49

It wasn't defined well. And there wasn't

25:49

pain wasn't even considered

25:52

a disease in its own right until like

25:52

2011.

25:56

And that was 10 years after my injury.

25:58

So I think that there just wasn't the

25:58

framework for supporting people like there

26:04

is today. And I'm so I'm grateful that

26:04

there are places like what like your show

26:10

where people can come and they can hear

26:12

stories that give them some hope.

26:15

Yeah, for sure. And that's a huge reason

26:15

why I'm doing this is I I want

26:20

to give people hope because when you're in

26:20

the thick of it of

26:25

the depression and anxiety and the pain

26:25

and whatever it is that you're going

26:29

through, you do. You tend to feel very

26:29

alone.

26:33

But and I remember I for the longest time

26:33

I thought,

26:37

Well, I'm the only one dealing with this

26:37

stuff.

26:39

I'm it's only me. Nobody else has gone

26:39

through anything like this.

26:45

But that's not true. The more I speak up

26:45

and the more I talk to people,

26:48

the more I realize how wrong I am,

26:51

because I believe that everybody has a

26:51

story.

26:56

I completely agree with that. I mean,

26:58

it may be hard. Sometimes it's hard for

26:58

our loved ones because they're

27:00

not inside our bodies. And somebody who

27:00

isn't chronically ill or in chronic pain

27:07

or is experiencing that kind of depression

27:07

or anxiety can't it's hard

27:12

for them to put themselves in your shoes

27:12

no matter how they try to empathize.

27:16

But for anybody who's gone through it,

27:17

they know.

27:19

yeah, for sure. I

27:20

Yeah.

27:21

I remember so I've I've always been the

27:21

anxious one in my marriage until these

27:27

few years my wife has dealt with some

27:27

anxiety problems because

27:31

she got diagnosed with a a thyroid issue

27:31

which

27:34

Mm.

27:35

causes anxiety. And she I think it was

27:35

like last year,

27:40

the year before, she pulled me aside and

27:40

she said,

27:42

I finally understand what your anxiety wh

27:42

why you do the things you do.

27:48

She said before now I've never understood

27:48

it.

27:51

It's I said, because you haven't lived it.

27:53

You've been on the outside looking in,

27:55

but it's completely different when you

27:55

actually are going through

27:58

the motions yourself.

28:01

Absolutely. You know, I think these things

28:01

can be really tough on friendships

28:06

and on marriages.

28:07

Wonderful.

28:08

And I mean, thank God my marriage

28:08

survived,

28:11

but we both became really different

28:11

people.

28:14

My husband became my caregiver,

28:16

I became a patient, our spontaneous,

28:21

you know, independent lives ended.

28:24

And we almost had to get to know each

28:24

other again and recommit

28:30

to a different kind of person,

28:33

a different kind of bond, a different kind

28:33

of marriage.

28:35

And when it comes to friendships,

28:38

I think if if a friend who loves you

28:38

hasn't gone through what you're going

28:43

it's really hard to know how to help.

28:47

It's also really frightening to see that

28:47

friend go through something's that's

28:52

so dark and so.

28:54

difficult because they can't fix it.

28:57

And I can't tell you how many friends just

28:57

slowly drifted away because there

29:02

was nothing that they could do.

29:05

Yeah, and it's and with my mental health

29:05

issues,

29:10

~ one thing that I've seen with

29:10

friendships is I've really had to set up

29:15

And it and

29:16

Mm.

29:17

it's if somebody like didn't understand or

29:17

kind of brought something negative into

29:23

my life, I would just say, You know what,

29:25

I need to be done with you because that's

29:25

how you're gonna treat me because

29:29

I can't deal with it emotionally.

29:32

Absolutely. In in fact, sometimes it was

29:32

even as simple as not being able

29:37

to handle a friend's healthy energy

29:37

because it would send me into a pain

29:43

or into worse depression or into worse

29:43

anxiety.

29:46

So I think all of these relationships are

29:46

really tricky,

29:49

which just reinforces how important the

29:49

community of people who

29:53

are who understand really can be.

29:58

Yeah, for sure. And this leads me into

29:58

another question.

30:02

Just there was something you said in that

30:02

last part that made me think

30:06

of this when you were talking about your

30:06

husband and you know,

30:11

re rebuilding yourselves. ~

30:17

Let's see. There's so there's to me

30:17

there's a difference between getting your

30:20

old life back and building a new one

30:20

because,

30:23

you know, your reality's changed.

30:25

Where did that distinction become clear to

30:25

you that you needed

30:29

to build something new?

30:32

The distinction was so clear that day I

30:32

described when I got discharged from

30:38

the hospital after Mayo Clinic,

30:40

and my husband went looking for nursing

30:40

homes for me.

30:42

And we both knew, even though he brought

30:42

me home,

30:46

that life as we knew it was over.

30:48

And it was up to us to create a different

30:48

life and a new one.

30:53

And that I had we had to focus and I had

30:53

to focus.

30:58

On the things that I still could do and

30:58

not everything that I couldn't.

31:02

And for me, that was, you know,

31:04

having to live lying down because I was

31:04

going to be horizontal,

31:09

but I could still use my brain.

31:11

And that was functioning. So in the column

31:11

of the things I could do,

31:16

I could still learn. I could still think.

31:19

I could still communicate. And it led me

31:19

on this path that was key

31:24

to my recovery that I would have never

31:24

expected.

31:27

But I decided that since I could still

31:27

learn and think that I wanted to

31:32

go back to grad school. I mean,

31:34

I had given up the idea of being a CEO.

31:36

I knew that would never happen again.

31:37

But I thought I could still learn.

31:39

And so I applied to graduate school at a

31:39

university near me in San Francisco.

31:46

And I got in and the f my first instinct

31:46

was I'm gonna defer because I still have

31:52

to lie down and I've gotta go in like a

31:52

like everybody else,

31:56

like sitting and

31:57

walking through the world. But I realized

31:57

that I had to start maybe before

32:02

I was ready. And that meant going to grad

32:02

school just like I was lying down.

32:06

So I went to graduate school at age 50,

32:11

lying on an army cot that I poured into my

32:11

classroom in a little personal shopping

32:17

cart and set up in about a minute.

32:20

And I still remember orientation day.

32:22

We were all introducing ourselves and all

32:22

my fellow students were seated

32:25

at these round tables. And they were half

32:25

my age,

32:28

by the way. And I was lying down in the

32:28

back of my army cot.

32:31

And when it was my turn to introduce

32:31

myself,

32:34

I propped myself up on like my elbow so

32:34

that my head would be more

32:40

at the level of their heads. And I said,

32:42

Hey, I'm Nancy. I had this bad injury.

32:45

I'm out Kilimanjaro. And I'm gonna be like

32:45

you see me here lying on this cot.

32:50

in class, but I want you to know that I'm

32:50

okay with it.

32:53

So you can be too. And I said this with

32:53

this confidence that I completely

32:58

did not feel because I was terrified and

32:58

just sure that this was going

33:02

to be the biggest disaster ever.

33:04

and that I maybe had a 50-50 chance of

33:04

getting through grad school without having

33:09

such a huge setback that I'd have to drop

33:09

out.

33:11

But, you know, within that safe container

33:11

of that university,

33:17

I spent the next

33:19

18 months lying down on a cot,

33:21

going to class, being surrounded by a

33:21

group of what I consider to

33:27

be much younger people ~ who supported me

33:27

in ways that I could have never imagined.

33:34

And one day we were talking about refugee

33:34

refugees

33:39

in ~ the Sahel in Africa.

33:43

And the prof said, I want you to take a

33:43

minute.

33:46

'Cause we've been talking about the

33:46

identity of these refugees.

33:49

I want you to think about your own

33:49

identity.

33:51

And I want you to write down what you are

33:51

and what you aren't.

33:53

And then we'll share it out. And that was

33:53

so easy for me.

33:57

I thought when it time came, I'm I wrote

33:57

this stuff down.

34:02

Everybody else is kind of muttering,

34:03

like taking their time and not really sure

34:03

what they were gonna say and

34:07

I raised my hand and I said, you know,

34:09

I used to be a CEO and a wife and a sister

34:09

and a daughter and a community member.

34:14

And now I'm this chronic pain patient,

34:16

period. And I have this disability,

34:20

and society is not ready for people like

34:20

me who can't sit up.

34:25

And I could barely get that out of my

34:25

mouth.

34:29

And my classmates started interrupting me.

34:31

And they said, No, that is not how we see

34:31

you at all.

34:37

And you've been a great contributor for

34:37

the past year.

34:41

You just you have a lot to give.

34:43

You just happen to do it lying down.

34:45

And that was a big moment for me.

34:47

And I just thought this thing does not

34:47

define me.

34:50

And there's so much that I can still do.

34:54

I just need I just have to keep rebuilding

34:54

a different life.

34:58

And so from grad school, I started,

35:01

I went back to work lying down.

35:04

I started traveling again like I had done

35:04

with my husband,

35:08

but this time on three coach seats lying

35:08

across them.

35:12

So I'd be Nancy Dale's Nancy Dale seat

35:12

one,

35:16

Nancy Dale seat extra seat two.

35:18

And I would lay down instead of sitting up

35:18

on airplanes.

35:24

And I just realized there's so many ways

35:24

to be in the world.

35:27

You know, we are all so unique and so

35:27

different.

35:33

And it's all fine. So it just gave me

35:38

a sense of possibility and purpose while

35:38

still respecting

35:44

and really honoring all those limitations

35:44

that I had.

35:48

Yeah, for sure. And I I love that story

35:48

with the with your grad cla grad class

35:54

and how they perceived you because

35:55

Mm.

35:56

it was completely different than what you

35:56

were thinking.

35:58

And I I love that because it's it shows

35:58

something about those students.

36:03

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean they had so

36:03

much empathy and they they

36:08

saw the person. They didn't see the the,

36:11

you know, physical

36:11

Okay.

36:13

position.

36:14

Yeah, and it's it sounds to me that you

36:14

basically just had to learn

36:21

how to trust yourself again to do these

36:21

things and to do them differently than

36:27

you have known.

36:29

my God, that's so true. I learned first of

36:29

all,

36:32

I had to learn to trust my body,

36:34

to listen to it, to adapt to whatever

36:39

the reality was in a given day,

36:42

which is wonderful in terms of staying in

36:42

the moment and keeping present.

36:48

And then whatever it was telling me,

36:50

I had to adapt and focus on what I could

36:50

could do that day.

36:54

And that was actually the key,

36:57

like the

36:58

There was not a silver bullet,

37:00

if you will, in my recovery, but that was

37:00

key to a mindset that allowed

37:06

me one day after another to start to heal.

37:12

I I absolutely love that. So now compared

37:12

to think back to when you're

37:18

you were ~ Silicon Valley CEO to now,

37:22

~ how has your definition of resilience

37:22

changed?

37:25

Ha ha. I used to think resilience was just

37:25

about like rebounding

37:31

and the big victory comeback and pushing

37:31

through and enduring everything

37:37

at all costs. And I just know that that's

37:37

for me,

37:41

it may be true for some people,

37:43

but for me, it's not at all true.

37:44

I mean, resilience is about embracing

37:44

reality,

37:49

adapting to what my body and my mind are

37:49

telling me.

37:53

is possible and then working within those

37:53

limits to do the best that I can.

37:58

It's really different. And you know,

38:00

Yeah. Yeah.

38:02

if I had a message for all Silicon Valley

38:02

CEOs,

38:05

I would urge them to maybe think about it

38:05

a little bit differently.

38:08

But I I certainly understand the mentality

38:08

because I lived it myself.

38:15

Yeah, but and that's we're on the same

38:15

page.

38:18

And but my my resilience has changed over

38:18

the years too.

38:22

It's

38:22

Yeah.

38:23

but we're we're pretty close to how we

38:23

think there.

38:27

It's there's with the I feel like with the

38:27

professional world there's just this

38:32

whole different mindset of what resilient

38:32

being resilient should look like.

38:37

Absolutely. Well, you know, our whole

38:37

culture defines worth

38:44

based on performance and productivity and

38:44

and resilience.

38:48

And that's the way that we do we have

38:48

defined what success looks like.

38:52

But you know, I have a very different

38:52

picture of that now,

38:55

thankfully, and I'm grateful for that.

38:57

Even though if somebody offered me a do

38:57

over,

38:59

I would never climb Pilomancharo again.

39:01

I certainly

39:02

Okay.

39:02

don't regret the person that I've become.

39:05

Yeah, it's this is great. I love it.

39:08

But for those so for those ~ someone who

39:08

is listening,

39:13

who appears successful and high

39:13

functioning,

39:16

but is privately falling apart what you

39:16

want them to understand about listening

39:22

to what their anxiety, depression,

39:24

pain or exhaustion may be trying to tell

39:24

them.

39:29

I think it can be really, really hard to

39:29

listen to what's real,

39:35

which is what your body and your mind are

39:35

telling you.

39:37

And I think we are trained to sublimate

39:37

that and to put on the good face that

39:44

we have to put on to keep going.

39:45

But I would say pay attention to those

39:45

signals because that is

39:51

the most authentic thing that you can get

39:51

your arms around.

39:54

And if you don't pay attention to it now,

39:57

it will catch up to you.

39:58

And it will catch up to you in a moment

39:58

that you don't anticipate that

40:01

you may not want. So I think if we can

40:01

walk through the world,

40:06

whether it's Silicon Valley or the world

40:06

of health with our eyes wide open,

40:10

I think we're all gonna be in a better

40:10

position to do our best,

40:15

whatever that may be.

40:19

Yeah, I I love that answer. And so but now

40:19

I'm thinking,

40:26

sorry, I'm kind of all over the place

40:26

here.

40:27

It's kind of how my brain works sometimes.

40:29

What does your pain, chronic pain look

40:29

like today?

40:35

This will sound miraculous, but I really,

40:38

in terms of the chronic pain that I used

40:38

to have,

40:41

I would say that it is gone. I have been

40:41

able to reframe what pain feels like

40:47

in my brain at this point. I can attribute

40:47

discomfort

40:52

to too much working out, to a day when I

40:52

didn't get enough sleep.

40:59

Maybe I didn't relax enough and I can

40:59

understand it and sit with it

41:05

and then move on. So it's transformed.

41:09

~ but I would also say that as I got

41:09

stronger from grad school,

41:13

from going back to work, a very,

41:15

very deconditioned body started to

41:15

strengthen.

41:18

I then hired a personal trainer who I

41:18

worked with every week for seven years

41:25

to build back the muscle that I had lost

41:25

in the first 15.

41:30

following my injury. And I think that as I

41:30

got stronger,

41:34

the pain started to recede in and of

41:34

itself.

41:37

So I think both things were happening at

41:37

once.

41:39

But thankfully, you know, as you see,

41:41

I'm not lying down. I'm sitting here and

41:41

I'm okay.

41:44

So ~

41:45

Yeah, that's

41:46

it's it's really yeah,

41:49

it's nothing short of amazing sometimes I

41:49

think,

41:52

but I understand how I got to where I am.

41:55

That's that's really cool. And it's

41:57

Thank you.

41:59

it takes a very I give you kudos 'cause it

41:59

takes a very strong person

42:03

to do what you've been doing and get past

42:03

that.

42:08

Because I feel like there's so many times

42:08

I feel like we make ourselves,

42:14

you know, stuck because we can't see that

42:14

there's something good on

42:19

the other side that ~ maybe this pain can

42:19

go away or

42:24

Well, it took me so long to realize that

42:24

everything I had built my life around,

42:29

which was like discipline and control and

42:29

pushing and working harder

42:33

and outrunning everybody and outlasting

42:33

everybody,

42:35

wasn't gonna work in this phase of life,

42:39

that it was making me sicker. And if I

42:39

hadn't figured that out,

42:43

I'm not sure where I would be,

42:45

honestly. I think I might be still stuck.

42:51

And it it just is sad that it takes so ~

42:51

many challenges to get to that point.

42:56

And then but for me, there was a time

42:56

where I thought it was all over

43:02

and then the seizures came back full force

43:02

at the end of 2024 and it just broke

43:06

me down again. But that I that would

43:06

probably be my turning point.

43:11

So I I it's like I'm thankful for them,

43:14

but not thankful for them because without

43:14

them I don't know if

43:17

I'd have this podcast.

43:19

Absolutely. I think that anybody who's

43:19

gone through what you have gone through,

43:23

what I have gone through, has a different

43:23

relationship to gratitude.

43:25

So yeah.

43:26

Mm-hmm.

43:27

Yep. And you you definitely have to learn

43:27

how to practice self gratitude with

43:33

all this stuff.

43:35

Can agree more.

43:37

And I'd love for you to dive into more of

43:37

your ~ life inside pain,

43:42

the your publication.

43:45

Yes. So on Substack, I write a bi-weekly

43:45

column called Life Inside Pain.

43:51

And really pe it's pieces of this story,

43:55

but it's more reflective because I've

43:55

figured some things out

44:01

in the years since I've gotten well.

44:04

And I feel like I want to share them back

44:04

with people in case they're going through

44:09

their own illness, they have their own

44:09

chronic pain,

44:12

maybe they're

44:12

they're grieving some huge loss in their

44:12

life when the old methods aren't working

44:19

and they're stuck. So I think there's a

44:19

way through and I just hope that

44:25

the stories and the anecdotes and the

44:25

insights will make somebody recognize

44:30

themselves in my words.

44:34

That's that's great. And s we we need more

44:34

people like that

44:40

to share their stories. And which leads me

44:40

to my next question.

44:45

How do you distinguish healthy

44:45

perseverance from overriding your body's

44:51

signs?

44:53

wow. ~ I think that

44:57

Healthy, I don't think perseverance is my

44:57

bad word.

45:01

I think if it's healthy, that that to be

45:01

steadfast can be a very good thing because

45:07

it doesn't happen like that. It's always a

45:07

process and it's a long road.

45:12

I think sublimating your body signals,

45:15

you know, pain's not the enemy.

45:18

It's information that most of us have been

45:18

trained to ignore.

45:23

And we need to be able to pay attention to

45:23

the signals that they're giving us.

45:27

And I think that if you can do that,

45:29

healthy perseverance can be your friend

45:29

again.

45:35

Yes, for sure. This is this is great.

45:38

This is I I say this I every episode that

45:38

I have,

45:42

but this is like a free therapy session

45:42

for me and I ask

45:45

Ha ha me too.

45:48

It's I'm like and sometimes like I feel

45:48

like the questions I

45:53

ask are ~ could almost be selfish because

45:53

it's things that I think

45:59

of and I'm like, how will this person

45:59

answer this?

46:04

Well, if you're asking it, your listeners

46:04

are asking it.

46:07

So

46:07

Hey.

46:07

I think you're anticipating everything

46:07

they're hoping to hear out there.

46:13

So this one kind of goes back to we we

46:13

talked a little bit about how when

46:17

you were diagnosed with ~ anxiety and

46:17

depression,

46:22

how the doctors could only focus on that.

46:25

What do you wish physicians better

46:25

understood about

46:30

the psychological effects

46:35

of living four years without a diagnosis?

46:41

I think that I wish they understood that

46:41

ambiguity

46:48

is a really horrible place for a person to

46:48

be when when they when they just need

46:55

an answer. And I think when

47:00

the diagnosis isn't clear, everybody gets

47:00

uncomfortable,

47:04

including the doctors.

47:05

And I think the crazy thing about that is

47:05

that sometimes when nobody has an answer,

47:11

the answer becomes the problem becomes the

47:11

patient.

47:13

And I can't tell you, I've poured over

47:13

2,500 pages of my medical record,

47:19

which is what it consists of after 15

47:19

years.

47:23

And the things that I've read about myself

47:23

were very sobering after all that time.

47:29

It was more than anxiety and depression.

47:32

It got so extreme that I would read things

47:32

like.

47:35

One ER doc wrote that conversion disorder

47:35

and factitious pain

47:40

and malingering have to be considered.

47:42

And like honestly, I thought I have no

47:42

idea what those words mean.

47:45

So I had to look them up. And it basically

47:45

meant that there was nothing,

47:50

the symptom, there was no underlying cause

47:50

of the symptoms.

47:53

Factitious pain meant that there's a good

47:53

chance that I was making them up.

47:58

And malingering meant like maybe that I

47:58

was intentionally put.

48:05

Trying to manipulate the system and maybe

48:05

I was drug seeking.

48:08

And this is a doctor's need to find a

48:08

different diagnosis when there isn't

48:15

one. And, you know, it is incredible the

48:15

way that those things can change

48:20

the kind of care that you receive.

48:21

So I wish that doctors understood,

48:24

and I think it's much better than it used

48:24

to be,

48:27

that mental health and physical health are

48:27

inextricably entwined.

48:32

And that you can't say whether pain

48:32

creates anxiety or whether anxiety worsens

48:38

I think it's all interrelated.

48:41

I a hundred percent agree with you.

48:43

And it's it's crazy because I went through

48:43

neurologist after neurologist

48:48

and it's because they couldn't find a

48:48

brain tumor.

48:50

They couldn't find something operable.

48:52

So they're like, Well, look just put on

48:52

get this medicine

48:56

and the medication actually made me

48:56

hallucinate.

48:58

So it just caused a bunch of bunch of

48:58

other things that I could go off on,

49:04

but it's it's it's just crazy because

49:04

that's there there's a side of it that

49:10

I feel I I feel like you're right that

49:10

they're starting to understand it more,

49:13

but there's still stuff that they can do

49:13

to to help out the patients

49:20

of that area.

49:21

Yeah, I think the healthcare system is

49:21

excellent at acute injury

49:25

and acute illnesses because there is

49:25

something that can be fixed

49:29

and they're quite adept at doing that.

49:32

I think when things become chronic,

49:34

things become more ambiguous and less

49:34

clear

49:40

and everybody gets nervous.

49:44

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's very true.

49:46

But I wanna make one more point about what

49:46

you said too is reading through your your

49:51

medical history. That's that's gonna be a

49:51

scary thing sometimes because

49:55

I did the same thing and I saw things in

49:55

there that I was like,

49:58

well I never thought of that and they

49:58

never told me that.

50:01

Absolutely. Absolutely.

50:04

But you know, hey, we have a right to we

50:04

own our medical records.

50:08

So I think it's it's probably a good

50:08

thing.

50:10

It was it was actually with time and

50:10

distance,

50:13

it was a healthy thing for me to read the

50:13

medical record.

50:16

I'm thankful I didn't read it at the time

50:16

when I was so lost and so sick.

50:20

I think I wouldn't have been able to

50:20

handle it.

50:20

He ~

50:22

yep, I'm I'm the exact same way.

50:23

It was years after every I went through

50:23

everything that I read stuff,

50:28

because back in the day I would have it

50:28

just would have made me worse.

50:34

Absolutely.

50:35

So we just have a few more questions here.

50:38

How can we validate anxiety and depression

50:38

without automatically assuming they

50:44

the root cause of someone's suffering?

50:47

Mm.

50:51

Well, I think the first thing that would

50:51

be really great is

50:55

to destigmatize anything related to mental

50:55

health.

51:00

And, you know, I used to have so much

51:00

trouble acknowledging

51:05

any mental health challenges while at the

51:05

same time I I would be quick

51:11

to share any physical challenges.

51:13

They should be out in society,

51:17

embraced and empathized with.

51:20

In the same supportive way.

51:23

But I think that there's still a lot of

51:23

stigma associated with mental health

51:27

challenges.

51:30

Yes, there is. Why would you w on that

51:30

topic,

51:34

what would you say is like one of the

51:34

biggest stigmas in today's society with

51:38

health?

51:44

I think that if you have a mental health

51:44

issue,

51:49

a challenge, that you are less than whole,

51:53

I think that you are categorized as an

51:53

other.

51:57

I think that you are not viewed as a

51:57

successful,

52:04

thriving human being. And I think,

52:07

first of all, because everybody's got

52:07

issues,

52:10

I think that that's just fundamentally

52:10

incorrect.

52:14

But I think it's not a fair assessment and

52:14

it's not an empathic assessment

52:18

of what we go through as humans.

52:23

It's very, very well said. I completely

52:23

agree.

52:26

And ~ a last question here that

52:34

I have is somebody that's d you know,

52:39

struggling right now and is just feeling

52:39

stuck,

52:43

what do you say to that person?

52:50

The first thing I would say is you're not

52:50

in this alone.

52:56

There are people that can and want to

52:56

support you.

53:03

Find an advocate.

53:06

If you can't advocate for yourself,

53:08

you it's necessary to navigate the

53:08

healthcare system and get this the help

53:14

you need. If it's not you, maybe it's a

53:14

partner or a

53:20

Best friend. And then I would say

53:20

sometimes things look really

53:27

dark, but there is always a way through as

53:27

long as you

53:32

are able to reconsider.

53:39

What your life might look like.

53:43

I absolutely love it. That's that's great.

53:45

There's a lot of words that we can take

53:45

from there and like even me I can use.

53:52

So like

53:54

Mm-hmm.

53:54

I said, like I said, free therapy session.

53:56

And kind of just two follow-up questions.

54:00

~ where can people find you in your work?

54:03

So on Substack, I'm at NancyDo D E Y

54:03

O.substeck.com.

54:08

That's where they can find Life Inside

54:08

Pain.

54:10

I'm on most social media channels like

54:10

LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook.

54:17

And I have a forthcoming memoir,

54:20

which is probably more than a year away.

54:23

So I won't say much about it, but I've

54:23

written the story because I feel

54:27

a moral sense of responsibility to.

54:31

Share this in the hope that it will lift

54:31

up somebody else.

54:35

Awesome. And I always say that ~ with ~

54:35

all episodes that I do,

54:40

if I could just if I just lifts up that

54:40

one person,

54:44

that's where my head's at. Like I just

54:44

takes one person.

54:49

Just that one person, yeah.

54:50

Kudos to you, one person at a time.

54:52

Yep. And last thing here is ~ we've

54:52

covered a

54:58

lot of ground in this episode.

55:01

Is there anything that you'd like to bring

55:01

up that we did not discuss?

55:08

Boy, I don't think so. I would just say

55:08

that resilience is so much more than

55:13

through and bouncing back. And when you

55:13

think you have to out endure and outlast,

55:17

maybe there's another way.

55:20

I agree. Well, Nancy,

55:23

thank you so much for ~ spending an hour

55:23

with me.

55:27

I really admire the work that you've put

55:27

into yourself and

55:33

the resilience that you've built and what

55:33

you're doing with your story.

55:36

I think it's important that you're telling

55:36

it and I I know there's somewhere

55:41

out someone out there that needs to hear

55:41

specifically what you have to say.

55:46

Well, thank you, Travis, and thank you for

55:46

what you do and for

55:50

the community that you're building.

55:51

I know it's appreciated.

55:54

And thank you to all the listeners.

55:56

if this resonated with you, please give us

55:56

a follow.

55:59

And the best thing that you can do for us

55:59

right now is give us that five-star rating

56:04

on any podcast platform that you're

56:04

listening on.

56:07

Thanks again. Until next time.