Podcast Episode
Grief After Suicide Loss: Turning Pain Into Advocacy and Hope | Nicole Jones-Vogel
Grief does not follow a timeline. Twenty years after losing her father to suicide, Nicole Jones-Vogel still encounters moments when the loss lands in unexpected ways—but over time, that grief also became fuel for...
October 5, 2026
Grief After Suicide Loss: Turning Pain Into Advocacy and Hope | Nicole Jones-Vogel
Grief does not follow a timeline. Twenty years after losing her father to suicide, Nicole Jones-Vogel still encounters moments when the loss lands in unexpected ways—but over time, that grief also became fuel for...
Episode Overview
Grief does not follow a timeline. Twenty years after losing her father to suicide, Nicole Jones-Vogel still encounters moments when the loss lands in unexpected ways—but over time, that grief also became fuel for...
What We Discussed
- Grief does not follow a timeline. Twenty years after losing her father to suicide, Nicole Jones-Vogel still encounters moments when the loss lands...
- In this episode, Nicole joins Travis White for an honest conversation about the complicated reality of suicide loss, survivor guilt, mental health...
- Nicole also explains how to support someone who may be struggling: ask direct questions, listen without judgment, help create distance from lethal...
- How grief can affect everyday life, relationships, and mental health.
- What helped the guest keep going when the situation felt hard or uncertain.
Who This Episode Is For
- Listeners navigating grief or supporting someone who is.
- People looking for honest, practical mental health conversations instead of surface-level advice.
- Anyone who wants real stories about resilience, healing, and rebuilding after hard seasons.
Key Takeaways on Grief
- Grief does not follow a timeline. Twenty years after losing her father to suicide, Nicole Jones-Vogel still encounters moments when the loss lands...
- In this episode, Nicole joins Travis White for an honest conversation about the complicated reality of suicide loss, survivor guilt, mental health...
- Nicole also explains how to support someone who may be struggling: ask direct questions, listen without judgment, help create distance from lethal...
- How grief can affect everyday life, relationships, and mental health.
- What helped the guest keep going when the situation felt hard or uncertain.
Guest
Nicole Jones-Vogel
Visit Nicole Jones-VogelResources & Links
Transcript
Show full transcript Timestamps included
0:00
Grief doesn't follow a timeline.
0:02
Twenty years after losing her
0:02
father to suicide,
0:05
Nicole Jones Vogel still has
0:05
moments where the loss hits her
0:09
in ways
0:10
she doesn't expect. Over time
0:10
that grief also became fuel for
0:13
something bigger.
0:15
Today, Nicole works in suicide
0:15
prevention advocacy,
0:18
meets with lawmakers, supports
0:18
other survivors,
0:21
and helps create conversations
0:21
that could save lives.
0:24
In this episode, we talk about
0:24
the complicated reality of
0:27
suicide loss,
0:28
how to support someone who may
0:28
be struggling,
0:31
why asking direct questions
0:31
matters,
0:33
and how you can find purpose in
0:33
something painful without
0:36
pretending
0:37
the painful thing needed to
0:37
happen.
0:38
This is Nicole Jones Vogel.
0:41
Welcome to Overcome with Travis
0:41
White.
0:43
Please leave us that five-star
0:43
review.
0:45
I hope you enjoy this episode.
0:52
Nicole, why don't you go ahead
0:52
and share your journey?
0:55
Yeah, well, there's so many like
0:55
facets of my journey,
0:59
but this year I've been on a
0:59
journey to share my experience
1:05
with suicide
1:06
loss grief and what I've been
1:06
doing with that grief and a
1:12
little
1:12
bit about why 20 years of loss
1:12
has really felt monumental
1:19
this particular year. And in
1:19
this
1:23
journey, this we'll just call it
1:23
my 2026 journey,
1:27
is really been about amplifying
1:27
the work that I've been doing
1:33
around
1:33
suicide prevention and really
1:33
highlighting
1:40
how complicated suicide loss
1:40
grief is and being able
1:46
to share that in a way that
1:46
hopefully really blends
1:52
in a lot of hope
1:54
in in suicide prevention and how
2:00
we can show up for one another
2:00
and belonging and community and
2:07
The power in talking about
2:07
mental health conditions.
2:14
Very well. And suicide
2:14
prevention to me is such an
2:17
important topic.
2:19
I'd love to know how you got
2:19
started talking about it.
2:25
Yeah, so you know, I I lost my
2:25
dad to suicide
2:31
in two thousand and six. And it
2:31
it was not sudden and it was not
2:36
a surprise
2:37
for our family. but it was still
2:41
a tsunami of emotions.
2:44
It was so hard. And the
2:44
complexity
2:50
of like family dynamics and our
2:50
own individual
2:57
hurt around that and then just
2:57
at the time like 20 years ago
3:00
you think about
3:01
it like stigma around mental
3:01
health conditions was way harder
3:05
than it is today.
3:07
It's still hard today, but it
3:07
will way harder.
3:09
And I was driving in my car and
3:09
I was listening to the radio
3:14
and you know back when you
3:14
listen to the radio I heard this
3:20
commercial
3:21
for this out of the darkness
3:21
walk.
3:23
And at the time I was doing a
3:23
lot of races.
3:28
I was doing a lot of like 5K's
3:28
and 10Ks and half marathons and
3:32
I was like,
3:33
what is this out of the darkness
3:33
walk?
3:35
I literally was like excited to
3:35
hear this commercial again so I
3:40
could figure
3:40
out more information. And what I
3:40
come to understand was it
3:45
was a suicide prevention out
3:50
of the darkness overnight walk
3:50
in Seattle.
3:53
I live in western Washington, so
3:53
it was in Seattle,
3:56
it was near me.
3:57
And it was walking from sunset
3:57
all through
4:02
the night to sunrise for suicide
4:02
prevention.
4:06
Now I heard this commercial like
4:06
eight months after my dad died.
4:09
And I was like, I have to do
4:09
this event.
4:13
I have to do this event. And and
4:13
at the time for me it was a
4:18
really significant lift
4:20
because you had you there was
4:20
like a fundraising minimum that
4:23
you had to do.
4:24
And it was it was hard, but I
4:24
did it.
4:27
I made it happen. And I did that
4:27
walk.
4:28
And it was the first American
4:28
Foundation for Suicide
4:33
Prevention event
4:35
I'd ever been to. And to say
4:35
that it was overwhelming and
4:39
impactful and inspiring,
4:41
just the words don't even do it
4:41
justice because it was so
4:46
beautiful and
4:47
so hard and so impactful all in
4:47
one night.
4:50
I mean, I don't stay up past
4:50
nine PM.
4:53
So to like start like my day, if
4:53
you will,
4:57
at 9 p.m. and then walking all
4:57
night.
5:00
it was so hard. But I connected
5:00
with that organization so
5:05
strongly from that point
5:07
forward. I spent probably the
5:07
first 10 years of
5:12
my involvement with AFSB just as
5:12
a community member,
5:15
just showing up, doing the
5:15
walks,
5:18
doing, you know, some very, very
5:18
minimal fundraising.
5:22
you know, just to get my free t
5:22
shirt,
5:24
you know. And over the years I
5:24
just
5:28
got more comfortable and I
5:28
experienced more healing
5:35
and I could start to have
5:35
conversations about suicide loss
5:40
without crying
5:42
and feeling like I need to de
5:42
stress
5:46
and and regroup and maybe
5:52
I don't know, five years ago I
5:52
got a little bit more involved
5:55
as
5:56
a volunteer and helped with some
5:56
fundraising.
5:58
And then a few years after that,
6:01
I got trained to do the Talk
6:01
Saves Lives presentation.
6:05
the last couple of years I've
6:05
co-organized our state advocacy
6:10
day where
6:11
we go to our state capital, talk
6:11
to legislators.
6:13
Also the last two years I
6:17
Flew to DC with representatives
6:17
from all all other 50 states,
6:21
DC and Puerto Rico, to go meet
6:21
with our members of Congress to
6:26
talk about important
6:28
suicide prevention legislation.
6:30
And I became a board member of
6:30
our state chapter and talking
6:36
about this
6:37
and these spaces that we create
6:37
for people.
6:40
That are safe to talk about
6:40
suicide loss and to know that
6:45
you're gonna
6:46
be met with someone who deeply
6:46
understands what that loss feels
6:51
like
6:52
or understands the gravity of
6:52
that struggle.
6:57
It's just I early on it was such
6:57
a healing space,
7:02
and now for me it's such a space
7:02
of community and hope.
7:06
And that's that's kind of like
7:06
my
7:09
It was kinda like felt like it
7:09
was a snowball effect,
7:12
right? Like one radio
7:13
Mm-hmm.
7:13
commercial twenty years ago and
7:13
now I'm,
7:15
you know, doing all of these
7:15
different things to push
7:19
forward,
7:20
reducing the stigma and knowing,
7:24
you know, how to really have
7:24
conversations with people that
7:27
make a difference.
7:29
Well that's really cool that
7:29
Water Radio Cr commercial did
7:32
that for
7:33
you and here you are today going
7:33
in front of Congress.
7:36
That's that's really cool.
7:36
That's a I I wanna say it
7:42
was something to me that would I
7:42
would say is meant to be.
7:45
I I'm a believer in those types
7:45
of situations.
7:50
Yeah.
7:51
but I do have a question for you
7:51
and this is coming from so I
7:55
back when
7:56
I was eighteen
7:57
I remember my mom calling me up
7:57
and saying,
8:00
Are you sitting down? I said,
8:03
no. Why does it matter? She
8:03
said,
8:05
You need sit down for this. And
8:05
she proceeded to tell me that
8:10
one of
8:10
my high school friends had
8:10
committed suicide.
8:14
And I remember I my my heart
8:14
just sunk,
8:18
like there was a nod in my
8:18
stomach and I basically fell to
8:22
the floor
8:22
and just cried my eyes out for
8:22
like twenty minutes.
8:25
It was
8:26
Hard, but I in that moment I
8:26
remember there were so many
8:30
unanswered questions.
8:32
Did you ever have any of those
8:32
questions?
8:35
If so, what were they?
8:38
Yeah, I think, Travis, this is
8:38
where my experience has differed
8:42
a little
8:42
bit from a lot of the stories
8:42
that you hear,
8:45
like, we didn't see it coming,
8:47
I didn't see the signs, all of
8:47
that.
8:50
Mm.
8:50
f my experience was that my dad
8:50
struggled with mental health
8:55
conditions for I mean
9:00
my whole life. perhaps his whole
9:00
life too.
9:05
And my dad wa did what some
9:05
mental health providers call
9:10
like suicide
9:11
rehearsals where you do all of
9:11
the actip activities that
9:16
someone would
9:17
do up to actually having a
9:17
suicide fatality.
9:22
And so those were like
9:28
Hard. You know, my dad would be
9:28
gone and we wouldn't know if he
9:33
was coming back.
9:34
And we knew that he had his
9:34
lethal means of choice and he
9:39
was unreachable.
9:40
And we we lived through three of
9:40
those before
9:45
his his his suicide.
9:49
And so
9:52
It wasn't a question for me. I d
9:52
I didn't have this like I don't
9:56
I need to understand why this
9:56
happened,
9:59
right? I I knew. And then my dad
9:59
was really
10:08
purposeful about ending his life
10:08
and what I mean by that is
10:14
he wrote letters to myself,
10:17
my brother, my grandma, my aunt,
10:21
and left those for us. he took
10:21
care of all the end of life
10:27
things that
10:28
he felt were important to take
10:28
care of before he chose to end
10:32
his life.
10:33
And so my experience differs a
10:33
little bit.
10:37
but it also I think brings to
10:37
light
10:44
folks who have attempts and what
10:44
that what that feels like
10:49
for family members and and how
10:49
to kind of navigate that as a
10:53
loved
10:54
one caring for someone who has
10:54
suicidal ideation.
10:57
And
11:02
And my heart really goes out to
11:02
people who are are trying to
11:06
make sense of this.
11:08
And one of the things that we
11:08
talk about in the training when
11:11
we're talking about
11:12
suicide prevention is that
11:12
there's this change
11:18
in your cogn in your cognitive
11:18
functioning when you're
11:22
suicidal.
11:22
And they call it cognitive
11:22
constriction.
11:27
and it's basically where you get
11:27
tunnel vision.
11:30
Like you you're in so much pain,
11:32
you can't manage to think about
11:32
anything except for ending that
11:37
pain.
11:37
And and the only way that that
11:37
person can see a solution is
11:43
to end their pain through
11:43
suicide.
11:45
And so, you know, there there's
11:45
lots of different things that
11:50
happen
11:50
for people when they're suicidal
11:50
and and when they have a suicide
11:55
fatality and
11:56
it can be that they really tried
11:56
to hide all of their signs.
12:03
Like they they had made a
12:03
decision.
12:06
And over the summer I was at a
12:06
long-term suicide loss survivor
12:13
summit. And this is one thing
12:13
I'm really thankful I haven't
12:17
had to personally deal with,
12:20
but I know it's so prevalent in
12:20
the community for people who've
12:23
lost someone
12:24
to suicide.
12:25
And that's that survivor guilt.
12:27
we talk so much about suicide
12:27
prevention and there's so much
12:31
prevention work
12:32
we can do. But I think it's also
12:32
important to know that not
12:37
all suicide is preventable.
12:37
there
12:43
it is just it's it's just not.
12:45
And and I don't think that ma
12:45
maybe today,
12:48
maybe if my dad was alive today,
12:50
maybe his suicide could have
12:50
been preventable.
12:53
I think that there's some new
12:53
treatments and there's some new
12:56
approaches
12:57
to suicidal ideation that may
12:57
would have made a difference for
13:01
him today.
13:02
But I think 20 years ago, I
13:02
don't know that my dad's suicide
13:06
was preventable.
13:07
And so I think one of the things
13:07
that can be really helpful and
13:11
healing
13:11
Yeah.
13:12
for people is that yes, there's
13:12
signs,
13:15
yes, there's symptoms, yes, we
13:15
can reach out and we can get
13:19
people the resources,
13:20
but
13:22
also know that some suicides are
13:22
prev are not preventable and we
13:26
can't,
13:27
you know, stop living our own
13:27
lives because someone made the
13:31
choice to end theirs.
13:34
Yeah, and it's y you mentioned a
13:34
few things there.
13:38
First of all it'd be tough you
13:38
said you did it like lived at
13:42
three times where
13:43
you didn't know if he was gonna
13:43
come back.
13:44
You know, that's that's just
13:44
really scary to me.
13:48
And then the second thing is
13:48
kinda how he had all these
13:53
things like notes written
13:55
out and stuff. I hear all the
13:55
time that a lot of times people
14:00
before they actually
14:02
go through with suicide, they
14:05
start kind of putting things in
14:05
order in their life.
14:09
It's I I I just think that's a
14:09
to me it's kind of a crazy thing
14:15
that they
14:16
do that, but I can see why they
14:16
do it.
14:19
Yeah. Yeah. Like you know, when
14:19
when we talk about people who
14:25
are,
14:25
you know, struggling with the
14:25
thoughts to end their life,
14:30
you know, they're they're in a
14:30
lot of pain.
14:33
And to us that pain is
14:33
invisible.
14:38
or to a lot of people it's
14:38
invisible,
14:39
right? but when people know,
14:39
like when you know that there's
14:43
a solution coming,
14:45
you that that's one of the
14:45
signs,
14:47
right? This is euphoria where
14:47
people are lighter and,
14:51
you know, you have these great
14:51
interactions with them and they
14:55
make,
14:55
you know, these plans with you
14:55
and have basically like,
15:00
you know, one last good time
15:00
with you and and they're like,
15:03
they were doing so great. They
15:03
were,
15:06
you know, just like
15:07
better than they've been in
15:07
months and it's because they
15:12
they know
15:13
a solution is coming, they know
15:13
their pain is ending and it's
15:17
kind of like
15:17
a last gift, you know, that they
15:17
give to their loved ones is this
15:22
last good
15:22
experience.
15:25
Yeah, and I I can see that. It's
15:25
'cause I I've I've been through
15:30
some really dark
15:32
depression times and suffered
15:32
from a suicide ideation.
15:35
There's times there's been times
15:35
where I honestly couldn't see
15:39
light at
15:39
the end of the tunnel. But
15:39
somehow I got motivated.
15:42
I think I hit my rock bottom and
15:42
did things to change my life,
15:46
which can't be said for
15:46
everybody.
15:48
But
15:50
Yeah.
15:52
was is what do you believe is
15:52
the
15:55
biggest like misunderstanding
15:55
when it comes to suicide.
16:02
I think one of the biggest
16:02
misunderstandings is that people
16:06
think it's one thing,
16:07
right? Like, someone lost their
16:07
job,
16:10
they broke up with, you know, a
16:10
a life partner,
16:13
they, you know, went into
16:13
bankruptcy.
16:17
You know, like it's just like
16:17
one thing,
16:18
right? It's not just one thing,
16:20
it's a multiple things. And so,
16:22
a person's choice to
16:27
end their life w it it
16:31
we have to be careful not to
16:31
oversimplify that.
16:34
Right.
16:34
Yeah.
16:35
The the research shows that when
16:35
someone dies by suicide,
16:37
they had at least one mental
16:37
health condition at the time of
16:41
their death.
16:41
And so we we you know need to
16:41
treat those mental health
16:45
conditions.
16:46
And I'm really, you know,
16:46
pleased to hear that you are
16:50
able to find,
16:51
you know, support and and help
16:51
you through like those those
16:55
dark times.
16:55
And I think
16:58
you being a light and helping
16:58
other people see that there
17:01
there is a solution,
17:02
there can be a solution. I've
17:02
been,
17:04
you know, like letting people
17:04
know,
17:06
like I've been where you are,
17:06
and let me help you find your
17:09
way.
17:10
And and and that was one of the
17:10
things that was really important
17:13
to me with this
17:13
out of the darkness walk, this
17:13
radio ad,
17:15
right? It's like my my belief is
17:15
that my dad died right after
17:22
the sunset. Now his death
17:22
certificate
17:26
says he died in the morning. I
17:26
don't believe the death
17:29
certificate.
17:29
I find it very hard to believe
17:29
that he would have had ended his
17:34
life after
17:35
the sun came up the next day.
17:35
and so that like figurative
17:41
and literal out of the darkness
17:41
has just been so meaningful to
17:46
me.
17:47
It just gives words to the
17:47
reality of the situation and and
17:53
it
17:53
and it kind of feels
17:55
beautiful in a way, right? Where
17:55
it's scary.
17:58
The darkness is scary. Like, you
17:58
know,
18:00
that's why as kids we want night
18:00
lights.
18:02
Or even as adults, we want night
18:02
lights.
18:05
We want a lit path. We don't
18:05
want to be in a dark corner.
18:09
And and we feel better when when
18:09
we have friends by us.
18:13
When we're walking through a
18:13
dark alley with friends,
18:15
it feels lighter and easier and
18:15
safer.
18:19
And and it just that
18:21
That language, that out of the
18:21
darkness language,
18:24
has just been really meaningful
18:24
to me.
18:27
That's that's really cool. And I
18:27
I love the what you just said
18:32
about your
18:33
dad around the time of sunset.
18:36
Like that's that's
18:38
Yeah.
18:39
like how you just explained all
18:39
that.
18:41
It's and it's like
18:46
I
18:46
feel like the the grief though
18:46
is something that you never
18:52
get over. Is there th
18:57
the so what I'd say about almost
18:57
two decades later,
19:02
does grief still surprise you at
19:02
times?
19:06
yeah. Yeah. It definitely does.
19:10
I la I don't know why I'm
19:10
laughing about it.
19:11
I think because
19:19
Each time I go to an event
19:19
around suicide prevention
19:24
or I have major life events,
19:27
I don't really know what to
19:27
expect like from my grief.
19:32
You know, sometimes I'm like,
19:32
this is like like I'm good.
19:36
I'm not having this tsunami of
19:36
emotions.
19:39
And then other times, I'll,
19:42
you know, have some major
19:42
milestone with my own daughter
19:47
and be like
19:48
this is something I would have
19:48
really wanted to show to my dad.
19:53
And like that isn't an option,
19:55
you know? And so these
20:00
You know, you know, as a parent,
20:02
like y y you said you have you
20:02
several kids and there's these
20:06
little little things
20:08
in life that feel big as a
20:08
parent,
20:13
right? These like little
20:13
milestones.
20:15
And those are sometimes the ones
20:15
that surprise me where,
20:21
you know, my my daughter got a
20:21
grand slam at a softball game
20:25
this last season.
20:27
And like that's like a you know
20:31
a big event for
20:32
This is
20:32
a kid and as a parent to feel so
20:32
proud and to like want
20:36
to share that with my dad and
20:36
and knowing that that can't
20:43
be it sometimes it's a bit of a
20:43
gut punch that comes out of
20:48
nowhere where
20:49
I don't expect it but it also at
20:49
the same time doesn't surprise
20:53
me
20:53
if that makes sense.
20:54
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it for for sure
20:54
does.
20:57
And would you say that becoming
20:57
a parent has changed the way you
21:01
think about your
21:02
father or your own experience
21:02
with loss?
21:09
Maybe. I think one of the things
21:09
that has been really intentional
21:14
for me
21:14
is to talk to my daughter about
21:14
mental health and to obviously
21:20
do that
21:20
in an age appropriate way. but I
21:20
feel like my daughter is
21:25
learning to
21:26
be an advocate for her own
21:26
mental health and to be on the
21:30
lookout
21:31
for friends at school and you
21:31
know,
21:34
just be a place where like she's
21:34
a resource.
21:39
And that's a really different
21:39
way than how I grew up.
21:43
and maybe you can relate to
21:43
this.
21:46
Like I grew up in an age where
21:46
it's like,
21:49
you suck it up, you figure it
21:49
out,
21:51
like asking for help is
21:51
definitely the surest sign to
21:55
let people know you're weak.
21:57
Right. And I think that the way
21:57
that I've you know,
22:01
I still struggle with that, of
22:01
course.
22:02
Like there's still things where
22:02
I'm like,
22:03
I could be asking for help and
22:03
I'm not of you know,
22:06
I'm I'm, you know, just
22:08
toughing it out as best I can.
22:10
But like I feel like my
22:10
parenting style is one of
22:13
showing like how we can,
22:15
you know, build a community
22:15
through asking for help and and
22:19
and supporting others.
22:21
Yeah, and I am totally right
22:21
there with you.
22:24
I grew up in that too, where it
22:24
wasn't talked about in my
22:27
household at all.
22:28
So when something happened to me
22:28
and I was going through some
22:33
medical stuff
22:34
and my mental health issues came
22:34
up,
22:37
I didn't know what they were. I
22:37
had no idea what anxiety was,
22:41
I had no idea what depression
22:41
was because they weren't talked
22:44
about.
22:44
And I believe that we live in a
22:44
different day and age where it's
22:50
more
22:50
prevalent.
22:52
And it's happening at a younger
22:52
age because and I wanna blame a
22:56
little
22:57
bit of that on technology and
22:57
just I I think we're being great
23:00
like raising kids
23:01
different than we used to. like
23:01
I heard a story the other day
23:06
where
23:07
my neighbor's son who is he's a
23:07
teenager in high school,
23:14
can't remember his age, but he
23:14
just had a friend that died by
23:18
suicide.
23:19
And I I I just it just makes me
23:19
question like what can we do f
23:25
especially
23:26
for these teenagers that are
23:26
suffering through all this
23:30
trauma
23:30
and comparison to others and
23:30
whatever it is that they're
23:34
going through.
23:36
Yeah, no, you're right. I you
23:36
know,
23:38
boys and young men are dying by
23:38
suicide much faster you know,
23:45
like eighty percent, like three
23:45
out of four suicide deaths are
23:49
are boys
23:50
or men and and and I don't wanna
23:50
minimize that that girls
23:54
and women aren't struggling.
23:54
They are,
23:55
they just they're doing a lot
23:55
more self harm.
24:01
And and choosing means that
24:01
aren't quite as lethal,
24:05
versus boys and men choose more
24:05
lethal means.
24:10
Yeah, you know, I really I
24:10
really I worry about men.
24:17
And so I it it brings me quite a
24:17
bit of hope and light because
24:23
I've
24:24
been on podcasts where men are
24:24
the hosts and we're really
24:27
talking about
24:29
you know, suicide prevention and
24:29
mental health and and speaking
24:33
openly about anxiety
24:34
and depression and and and I
24:34
think that
24:40
the that you and and others are
24:40
are leaders in this space
24:45
and showing other men that it's
24:45
okay to talk about these things
24:50
and and getting help. you know
24:50
depression is
24:55
a treatable mental health
24:55
condition,
24:58
you know, it
24:59
it it there's lots of treatments
24:59
available and and there's even
25:04
treatment resistant
25:05
you know treatments available
25:05
right so there's there there's
25:09
solutions
25:10
out there and talking about it
25:10
is the first step to get on
25:16
a path where you're feeling
25:16
better.
25:18
And I I heard from one of our
25:18
providers in our community here
25:23
recently.
25:23
It it was just like this light
25:23
bulb moment for me.
25:27
I
25:28
I felt like I knew it, but I
25:28
didn't actually know it from
25:32
like
25:32
a research perspective. But we
25:32
we see a lot
25:38
of men with anger issues and I
25:38
didn't realize this and and
25:41
maybe you know this,
25:42
that anger is a symptom of
25:42
depression in men.
25:49
I had no idea.
25:52
Yeah, so it it gives me this
25:52
like,
25:54
I don't know, it makes me feel
25:54
like I've got this like super
25:58
secret tip,
25:58
right? So when I see men who are
25:58
angry,
26:01
like I can have a lot more
26:01
compassion for them because I
26:05
just I just jumped
26:07
to this conclusion and I like
26:07
diagnosed them as being
26:09
depressed,
26:09
which of course is you know just
26:09
the my way,
26:14
my brain giving them compassion
26:14
in whatever anger moment that
26:18
that they're in.
26:20
And I see this in, you know, in
26:20
people i in my circle,
26:24
right? And so it gives me, yeah,
26:27
it just gives me that lens of
26:27
compassion where maybe I would
26:30
just be like,
26:31
he's just being a jerk, you
26:31
know.
26:33
It may and and yes, that's also
26:33
true,
26:36
but there's something
26:36
potentially else going on there.
26:40
So, you know, there's a lot of
26:40
groups that are really focusing
26:45
on men
26:45
and boys and and I hope that
26:48
there's some traction. I'd love
26:48
to hear from you on what like
26:53
helped you
26:53
as a man dealing with depression
26:53
and anxiety and how we can build
26:58
more community
26:59
to support to support you and
26:59
people that are going through
27:03
that in life.
27:05
Well first of all, before I
27:05
forget this thought,
27:07
is you said the anger thing,
27:07
because I've been dealing some
27:10
with some like anger
27:11
issues myself. And but you made
27:11
a light bulb go off because I
27:15
have people
27:16
in my family that have the anger
27:16
issues,
27:17
but I feel like some of those
27:17
moments where I feel the most
27:23
anger
27:24
or when I've been in stuck in
27:24
that depression rut.
27:28
But I've never really connected
27:28
the two together.
27:31
I mean I know depression makes
27:31
you more
27:34
And anxiety together makes you
27:34
more irritable in general.
27:36
But I've never really considered
27:36
the thought that
27:42
the anger and the depression can
27:42
be linked together.
27:46
Yeah, it's it's interesting,
27:46
right?
27:48
Like it it does does it make
27:48
like hearing it,
27:50
does it give you like more
27:50
compassion for yourself?
27:53
yet yet to a point, but like I
27:53
don't wanna downplay some of my
27:59
my moments.
28:00
Like just that I've I've been
28:00
rude to people and like it's
28:05
it's always like
28:07
totally unintentionally and it's
28:07
like just those moments where I
28:09
just
28:11
I don't even know how to explain
28:11
it.
28:12
It's this thing that just
28:12
unleashes inside me and I feel
28:16
like I I just
28:17
go numb and it's like an un
28:17
uncontrollable thing.
28:23
So it's it's hard to explain.
28:23
We're kinda going back
28:26
no, I'm a I'm a woman going
28:26
through a perimenopause.
28:30
I'm like you don't know how to
28:30
explain.
28:30
That's even that's even more
28:30
that's even more difficult.
28:34
You you got me one up there. You
28:34
got me one up there.
28:35
Like a no no no, I can
28:35
understand that,
28:37
yeah.
28:39
I've had conversations on that
28:39
too.
28:41
Yeah, yeah.
28:42
well that's good 'cause it's one
28:42
of another like topic that
28:46
people are,
28:46
you know, not talking about so
28:46
much.
28:48
So yeah.
28:50
Yeah, for sure. But kinda going
28:50
back to your question to me,
28:54
what helped me.
28:57
Yeah.
28:58
honestly I went years and years
28:58
I so I ha started having medical
29:03
problems back
29:04
in two thousand nine. And after
29:04
those like really ramped up,
29:08
started having seizures, I
29:08
that's when I started having
29:12
anxiety and depression.
29:14
Like I mentioned earlier in the
29:14
show,
29:15
I didn't know what they were at
29:15
the time.
29:17
And for the longest time I
29:17
didn't want to admit that I had
29:19
a problem.
29:20
I don't think it was until like
29:20
two thousand seventeen where I
29:24
actually
29:25
sat down and said, Okay, well,
29:27
there is something going on
29:27
here,
29:29
but I didn't w admit it enough
29:29
to really get that much help.
29:32
But at the end of 2024, I had
29:32
another big cluster of seizures
29:37
and it put
29:38
me at my wit's end. I I believe
29:38
to this day that that was my
29:41
breaking point.
29:42
It's basically why that I
29:42
started this podcast.
29:46
but I went through a time of
29:46
deep dark depression where I was
29:53
I
29:53
had to call the suicide hotline
29:53
and I it was it was just bad.
29:59
But I I realized like, you know
29:59
what,
30:02
I need to be here for my kids.
30:03
So I finally admitted to myself
30:03
that I have a problem and I need
30:06
to get the help.
30:07
So honestly therapy was huge for
30:07
me.
30:10
I took some medication just to
30:10
get me out of that rut.
30:13
and I actually
30:16
Another thing that I believe
30:16
helped was changing changing my
30:20
diet.
30:21
I am what they I s I call the
30:21
eighty percent healthy
30:27
or the twenty percent whatever
30:27
you want diet.
30:30
So it's like I eat mostly gluten
30:30
free,
30:32
lots of protein, lots of like
30:32
vegetables and stuff.
30:37
no really no sugars for them for
30:37
the most part I'm not seeing
30:41
like that.
30:42
That twenty percent yes, it's
30:42
it's full of sugars.
30:46
But
30:46
I I honestly think that helped
30:46
me gain control of my body
30:50
again.
30:50
And I'm not saying that
30:50
everything went away,
30:52
but really it was digging into
30:52
therapy and really figuring out
30:56
what tools
30:57
and techniques helped me out.
31:00
And a lot of it was just
31:00
learning to dill with 'cause I I
31:05
realized like,
31:06
you know, this stuff doesn't
31:06
really go away.
31:08
Kinda comes and goes, but if you
31:08
have the tools and techniques
31:12
out there,
31:12
it's it's gonna change
31:12
everything.
31:16
Yeah, no, I I love that you
31:16
brought up therapy.
31:19
and you know, I'm also really
31:19
pleased to hear you talk about
31:22
nine eighty eight,
31:23
'cause nine eighty eight really
31:23
is like there for people twenty
31:27
four seven.
31:28
You don't have to be suicidal,
31:29
right? You can be having
31:29
whatever your version of a
31:33
crisis is.
31:33
And there are trained providers.
31:36
I know in my state they're all
31:36
like have bachelor's degrees in
31:41
psychology
31:41
and and we've got, you know,
31:41
really,
31:43
really great people.
31:46
available to help. And but I
31:46
want to I besides doing the plug
31:49
for nine and eight,
31:50
which thank you for doing that,
31:51
I kind of want to talk about
31:51
like different types of therapy,
31:55
right? I think that there's
31:56
Mm-hmm.
31:56
this understanding or belief for
31:56
people that like therapy is just
32:01
you sit
32:01
on a couch and talk to somebody
32:01
and you know whatever.
32:04
But it is there's just so many
32:04
other options out there for
32:08
different modalities
32:09
for therapy that are helpful for
32:09
people.
32:11
And I'm curious
32:12
if you experienced any like
32:12
variance from like what we think
32:17
of
32:17
as like the traditional therapy.
32:20
No, I mostly did talk therapy
32:20
for the most part.
32:24
but I'm trying to think I I
32:24
would almost say that like other
32:31
things like journaling I think
32:31
is a form of therapy.
32:33
there's the what's it called?
32:36
EMDR that the eye movement
32:36
stuff.
32:40
I've
32:40
Yeah.
32:41
had people talk about like
32:41
ketamine.
32:44
I know pre people personally
32:44
who've done that and sworn by
32:48
it.
32:49
Yeah.
32:50
Th there's so many things and I
32:50
wanna I wanna state though too
32:53
that
32:54
to me mental health is not a one
32:54
size fits all.
32:57
It's you you need to dig in, do
32:57
the work,
33:00
and if something doesn't work
33:00
for you,
33:01
you need to try the next thing
33:01
and don't get frustrated when
33:05
something doesn't work.
33:08
Yeah. Yeah. And and if your your
33:08
treatment resistance that
33:13
resistant,
33:14
there are other things, right?
33:15
So like it's not just, you know,
33:18
depression medication and
33:18
therapy.
33:20
There are there are other things
33:20
out there.
33:21
And we recently held an event in
33:21
my community where we had art
33:27
therapy.
33:27
And so we invited the community
33:27
to come out and experience what
33:31
art therapy is like.
33:32
And we have a music therapy
33:32
program at one of our local
33:36
colleges and
33:38
equine therapy and you know
33:38
therapy dogs and like there's
33:43
just there's just
33:44
so much out there and I you know
33:44
I really implore people one
33:50
to really feel like you're not
33:50
alone and that there are there
33:56
are lots of resources that are
33:56
available.
34:00
Mm t
34:01
tons and tons of options.
34:05
And it's and a a lot of times
34:05
the the first thing doesn't
34:10
always work.
34:11
I actually talked to a guy on
34:11
here that he went through like I
34:16
think
34:17
ten different things and then he
34:17
found breath work and breath
34:21
work ended
34:21
up being his his thing that
34:21
really helped him out.
34:24
And now he teaches it.
34:27
Yeah. Yeah, we have to be
34:27
curious,
34:30
right? Yeah.
34:30
Mm-hmm.
34:34
S so with everything you've been
34:34
through,
34:37
how do you find purpose in
34:37
something painful without
34:40
feeling like you're saying
34:41
the painful thing needed to
34:41
happen?
34:48
Well
34:51
I don't know.
34:53
Yeah.
34:56
But here's what I do know. I had
34:56
to keep going,
35:00
right? Like I my dad's death,
35:03
I don't want it to define him,
35:06
but I also don't want it to
35:06
define me.
35:09
And so I
35:16
I really like that there can be
35:16
hope
35:22
in all of this work that we can
35:22
build community,
35:26
we can talk about this stuff
35:31
in the lens of resources and
35:31
positivity
35:36
and change and you know with the
35:42
988 being an option, you know,
35:44
like that's it, that was a huge
35:44
advancement for mental health in
35:48
our country.
35:49
several
35:54
well, not several years,
35:57
but a little over a year ago
35:57
now,
36:00
year and a half or so, I was
36:00
looking for something to just
36:04
kind of relax,
36:06
you know, just a fun activity.
36:08
you know, like it's hard with
36:08
work and kids and just all these
36:12
commitments.
36:12
Like, how do I ha find time to
36:12
fill up my cup and and do
36:17
something that's joyful
36:19
for me? And so I I don't know
36:19
how I found this exactly.
36:24
I probably like doom scrolling
36:24
Pinterest and found the this
36:30
polymer clay.
36:31
And so I was like, this is you
36:31
know,
36:33
not quite instant gratification,
36:35
but close, right? And I can take
36:35
these
36:38
this bits of clay and I could
36:38
it's this basically like adult
36:41
version of Play-Doh,
36:43
right? You take clay, you roll
36:43
it out,
36:45
you use these little plastic
36:45
cutters and cut them into shapes
36:49
and and then,
36:50
you know, intentionally let them
36:50
dry,
36:53
cure them, and then I can wear
36:53
them as earrings,
36:55
right? And so I started doing
36:55
that and there there's
37:02
a couple of things going on for
37:02
me.
37:04
One, I could
37:05
make something that I could wear
37:05
and it was pretty and that
37:08
people would
37:09
say something when I wore these
37:09
earrings that I made.
37:11
But then two, the process of it,
37:13
it had this like component of
37:13
like having purposefully having
37:19
to like let go.
37:20
Because once you put it through
37:20
the machine that flattens out
37:25
the clay,
37:25
like you you can redo it, of
37:25
course,
37:28
but you it's never the same. And
37:28
so you kind of have to let go of
37:32
the outcome.
37:33
And that's one of the things
37:33
that I personally struggle in in
37:36
life
37:37
is like feeling like or thinking
37:37
that I have control over things
37:41
that
37:41
I don't have control over. And
37:41
so doing the clay is kind
37:46
of this simple reminder that I
37:46
don't have control over a lot of
37:52
things and
37:52
and I can let go and and
37:52
whatever comes out of this can
37:56
actually
37:57
be beautiful and unique and and
37:57
and pretty and
38:02
So I started making earrings and
38:02
you know,
38:05
I kept getting better and better
38:05
at it.
38:07
And then I was like, I really
38:07
want to do something that's a
38:10
little
38:11
bit more purposeful because, you
38:11
know,
38:12
I've got like I can't just keep
38:12
making earrings,
38:15
right? Like, I mean I can, but
38:15
like at some point,
38:17
like I can only gift them away
38:17
to so many people,
38:21
right? I was like, I'd go to
38:21
girls' nights and I'd bring like
38:24
a bunch
38:24
of earrings and I'd pass them
38:24
around.
38:26
I'm like, earrings for you
38:26
Yeah.
38:26
and earrings for you. Like, what
38:26
am I gonna do with these,
38:28
right?
38:30
But I saw an opportunity to make
38:30
earrings that were really
38:34
centered around hope.
38:35
And so I started making
38:35
semicolon earrings.
38:38
And I'm sure that you know the
38:38
significance of the semicolon.
38:42
But in case you have listeners
38:42
that don't,
38:45
a semicolon is a place where an
38:45
author could choose to use
38:51
a period and end the sentence.
38:54
instead uses a semicolon.
38:58
marks a pause but then continues
38:58
on.
39:00
So it's really a symbol of hope
39:00
in the mental health space.
39:04
And you'll see lots of people
39:04
with semicolon tattoos and
39:08
semicolon related things.
39:12
And so I made semicolon earrings
39:12
and I use them as
39:17
a fundraiser for the American
39:17
Foundation for suicide
39:21
prevention.
39:22
And it's been a really fun way
39:22
to
39:27
wear hope and and share hope and
39:27
it's kind of one of those things
39:31
where like
39:32
if you know you know kind of
39:32
thing.
39:33
so it it's kind of like a pop of
39:33
of interest
39:39
and and and color. And so that's
39:39
one of
39:44
the ways that I stay motivated
39:44
in
39:49
all of this work where, you
39:49
know,
39:53
it it can be a little consuming,
39:55
right? There you
39:58
our where I live in my county,
40:00
we have the high higher than
40:00
national average of suicides in
40:04
our county.
40:04
And so if if you know each
40:04
suicide feels a little bit like,
40:09
we haven't done enough or we
40:09
need to do more or we need to
40:12
reach more people or,
40:13
you know, there's there's just
40:13
so much hurt,
40:16
right? There's just the ripple
40:16
effects of of one suicide in our
40:21
community.
40:21
It really impacts a lot of
40:21
people.
40:23
But, you know, being committed
40:23
to
40:27
the research and the education
40:27
and the advocacy has felt like a
40:31
really
40:32
big part of my life.
40:35
And I do get a lot of hope and
40:35
satisfaction out of doing this
40:41
work
40:42
and and spending time, you know,
40:44
talking with people like you who
40:44
really want to share about
40:50
how impactful this space can be
40:50
and
40:54
how much hope and resources
40:54
there are out there and and
40:57
using this platform
40:58
as a way to reach more people
40:58
and and and let them know that
41:03
there are options.
41:05
Yeah, for sure. And
41:09
You mentioned a few things that
41:09
I wanna touch base on and it's
41:13
like hope.
41:13
I've always thought of hope as
41:13
so I'm a big music person.
41:18
Listen I don't play anything, I
41:18
just listen to it,
41:21
I go to concerts as much as I
41:21
can.
41:23
But I remember this album coming
41:23
out,
41:27
it was called Hope, but the it
41:27
was actually Hold On,
41:30
Pain Ends. So I've whenever I
41:30
hear the word hope I always
41:34
think of that
41:35
for some reason.
41:37
Yeah.
41:38
But you also brought up
41:38
something that i is me that I
41:41
just cannot stand thinking
41:43
about is you said, I can't I
41:43
have a hard time getting over
41:46
things I can't control.
41:48
That is who I am to a tea and
41:48
I've really
41:49
Yeah, yeah
41:54
had to work hard on like with my
41:54
therapy.
41:56
It's just control what you can
41:56
control.
41:59
Like if there's there's certain
41:59
things in life that you're not
42:02
going to be able to,
42:03
just push those aside and
42:03
control what you can.
42:07
Well, in so many of those things
42:07
those things,
42:09
as you know, it's an illusion of
42:09
control.
42:12
Like, do you really even have
42:12
the control n I mean,
42:12
Mm-hmm. You have two trolls,
42:12
yeah.
42:14
like you just
42:15
have some illusion of of some
42:15
control there?
42:17
Yeah. It's tough. Like it's
42:17
really tough,
42:20
right? We just have we put these
42:20
unrealistic expectations on
42:24
ourselves.
42:24
and sometimes we put those
42:24
unrealistic expectations on
42:28
other people.
42:29
And I think we live in such a a
42:29
a society and
42:37
pace of life that isn't really
42:37
based in human needs
42:43
and optimizations for like a
42:43
good
42:48
Full healthy life.
42:51
Yeah, for sure. And and speaking
42:51
of expectations,
42:54
I remember one therapy session
42:54
where I was my therapist was
42:59
asking me like,
43:00
you know, what's like one of the
43:00
hardest parts about your day?
43:03
And having four younger kids
43:03
bedtime.
43:07
Bedtime I I I'll start swearing
43:07
if I talk about it too much,
43:12
but it's just it's
43:12
Ha ha
43:13
just a pain. It's just like I
43:13
have a six year old,
43:16
a four year old, a two year old
43:16
and a four month old.
43:19
So it's
43:20
As soon as my two older kids
43:20
hear the word bedtime,
43:23
it's like something that goes
43:23
off in their head,
43:25
it's like, let's let's play,
43:25
let's get into stuff,
43:27
let's throw tantrums, let's do
43:27
everything that we can to not go
43:32
to bed.
43:33
And so it just frustrates me.
43:33
And then I name something else,
43:36
and my therapist turned around
43:36
and said,
43:38
It sounds to me like you need to
43:38
lower your expectations.
43:42
And I said,
43:43
Ha ha ha
43:44
Well, how do I do that? Like,
43:44
what do you mean?
43:47
And I was thinking, Well
43:50
I know what he means, but like
43:50
what does he mean?
43:52
So we just said, like, no,
43:52
you're you're thinking that your
43:56
kids should be up here.
43:57
They really need to be up here
43:57
or down here.
44:00
And as as soon as you kind of
44:00
lower your expectations
44:06
of what you how you think people
44:06
should be,
44:09
things will change. And so I I
44:09
was like,
44:13
This doesn't make a lot of sense
44:13
to me right now,
44:15
but I did it. And
44:19
it actually made me less crazy
44:19
at night.
44:23
And I started doing it in other
44:23
places in my life.
44:25
And it actually it really works.
44:29
Like I I would I wouldn't think
44:29
it would because I said I didn't
44:31
think
44:31
my expectations were that high
44:31
to begin with,
44:35
but
44:36
Yeah. No, like ha changing our
44:36
frame
44:39
of mind it's hard,
44:43
but the outcomes, just like how
44:43
you were talking about the you
44:48
know,
44:48
changing your expectations
44:48
around bedtime
44:51
It's incredible the impact that
44:51
it has on our mood and and then
44:57
how
44:57
we show up to the experience
44:57
when when that shift happens.
45:04
Yes,
45:04
most definitely. So I'm gonna
45:04
kinda switch back to the suicide
45:10
your suicide
45:11
prevention advocacy here. So for
45:11
somebody who hears those words,
45:15
suicide prevention advocacy and
45:15
thinks that it just means
45:19
raising awareness,
45:20
what does the work actually look
45:20
like?
45:26
Yeah, so the work, I find it
45:26
really fun personally.
45:29
but the work is actually making
45:29
legislative changes.
45:35
So, I mean, yeah, awareness
45:35
happens and telling personal
45:40
stories helps
45:42
our legislators understand. But
45:42
the thing that I've learned
45:45
about suicide prevention
45:47
advocacy and just suicide
45:47
prevention generally.
45:50
is that it's not a Republican
45:50
topic,
45:55
it's not a Democratic topic, it
45:55
is an everybody topic.
45:59
And I haven't found
46:04
very many legislators who are
46:04
like,
46:06
Yeah, I don't understand this.
46:08
Like, I don't know anybody who's
46:08
dealt with this.
46:10
This is a small segment of our
46:10
populations that deal with this.
46:13
That's not usually the case.
46:13
I've met with legislators who,
46:17
like me, have lost a parent to
46:17
suicide.
46:21
they worry about their grandkids
46:21
or their kids or you know,
46:25
they've lost someone really
46:25
close to them.
46:27
And so when we go and meet with
46:27
these legislators,
46:29
you know, it's not just like,
46:29
hey,
46:32
suicide is important. Like we
46:32
have to be careful because we
46:35
don't know their loss.
46:37
And so I think one of our jobs
46:41
as advocacy and advoc advocates
46:41
for suicide prevention is using
46:48
that safe language to talk about
46:48
suicide and using language that
46:53
doesn't further
46:54
stigmatize suicide and be really
46:54
clear about about
47:00
that because those those
47:00
conversations,
47:03
you know, maybe a legislator
47:03
isn't going to be talking about
47:06
suicide other than
47:07
in our meetings, right? Because
47:07
in a lot of spaces it's not
47:10
talked about.
47:11
But if we model that good
47:14
language and conversation, then
47:14
maybe they'll take that
47:17
conversation
47:18
in other spaces. And so we at
47:18
both the state level
47:24
and the national level, we
47:24
advocate for specific
47:28
legislation.
47:28
in my community, we're talking a
47:28
lot about bridge barrier work
47:34
and how we can make our bridges
47:34
safer.
47:37
I live in Washington State. We
47:37
have a lot of water bodies,
47:40
we have a lot of islands, we
47:40
have a lot of
47:43
dangerous bridges that people
47:43
choose as their lethal means.
47:48
And so we go to our legislators
47:48
and we talk about,
47:51
you know, what can what can we
47:51
do?
47:52
Like bridge barriers are more
47:52
than 90% effective.
47:56
You know, how do we how do we
47:56
talk about funding that?
47:59
this last year at the federal
47:59
level we talked also about
48:04
bridge barriers.
48:06
Like it's it was so meaningful
48:06
to me specifically because I've
48:10
been doing this
48:11
at the state level so much.
48:12
But to know that every state, DC
48:12
and Puerto Rico,
48:16
were meeting with members of
48:16
Congress about this one topic.
48:21
So the bill would authorize ten
48:21
million dollars a year for five
48:27
years
48:27
and it would be distributed as
48:27
grant funding through DOT.
48:30
So it's not a lot of money. I
48:30
don't know if you know this or
48:34
not,
48:34
but the Golden Gate Bridge got
48:34
netting.
48:37
in 2024 and that project was
48:37
over 200 million dollars just
48:43
for that one bridge so a
48:44
Run.
48:45
ten million dollars a year for
48:45
five years isn't gonna go very
48:49
far but the conversations the
48:49
importance the amount of people
48:55
that
48:55
we lose to that specific lethal
48:55
means is not insignificant and
48:59
so having the conversations is
48:59
important the other
49:05
We we talk a lot about veteran
49:05
access to mental health care and
49:09
how
49:09
we can support our veterans,
49:09
especially when they're
49:12
transitioning from active duty
49:14
service to back to civilian
49:14
life.
49:16
And that first twelve months is
49:16
the most at risk time in their
49:21
transition back
49:22
to civilian life. And so how we
49:22
can support that.
49:25
So we talked about a bill around
49:25
that.
49:27
And then the final bill
49:29
was suicide specific.
49:35
access to treatment and care and
49:35
resources.
49:40
a lot of times when folks go see
49:40
their their mental health
49:44
provider,
49:45
they don't necessarily get
49:45
suicide specific care.
49:49
And so that would fund through
49:49
SAMHSA 30 million a year
49:55
for five years. I don't know if
49:55
that bill's gonna happen.
49:59
the financial situation at the
49:59
federal level.
50:02
is tough and 30 million a year
50:02
is quite quite a significant
50:05
amount.
50:06
But regardless, we all wear the
50:06
same shirt.
50:09
We're all ping-pong and back and
50:09
forth on the hill.
50:13
almost 300 of us. it's an
50:13
incredible day,
50:18
just showing support, having
50:18
conversations
50:23
and pushing through legislation.
50:25
it is
50:30
It it's so unique to make
50:30
appointments with our
50:35
legislators
50:36
and sit down with them and see
50:36
how that conversation goes.
50:40
It it it's a lot of the same and
50:40
also so very different from
50:44
office to office.
50:46
And so it's really fun. If if if
50:46
any of your and if you or any of
50:50
your listeners
50:51
are interested in ever
50:51
participating in that,
50:53
there's typically an advocacy
50:53
day in every state across the
50:57
country.
50:58
whenever your legislative
50:58
session is and I would encourage
51:03
you to
51:04
to volunteer and and experience
51:04
that.
51:07
Yeah, there's a lot that goes
51:07
through like getting these bills
51:11
passed.
51:12
I remember my mom on state level
51:12
in Utah helped get
51:17
one passed for child abuse
51:17
registry
51:21
Mm.
51:22
after my my niece was shaken.
51:22
And I remember just
51:28
how many different meetings she
51:28
had to go to,
51:32
how many different things up at
51:32
the state capitol she had to go
51:35
to.
51:36
Sh and she had to meet with our
51:36
representative multiple times
51:39
and it's it's
51:40
not an easy thing to to do.
51:44
Yeah, absolutely is not. And
51:44
usually things take more than
51:47
one session
51:48
at the state level to get
51:48
approved.
51:50
And I hope that your mom got the
51:50
pen that the governor signed
51:54
that bill with
51:55
Yeah. Yes. Sh she yes,
51:55
at the at the end of that,
51:55
'cause that was very special.
51:59
she did.
52:00
Nice. I love that. It's a lot of
52:00
work.
52:03
It definitely is. And some of it
52:03
is long-term relationship
52:08
building
52:09
and going back every year and
52:09
and just you know making sure
52:12
that they don't forget
52:13
that we as advocates are out
52:13
here and we still care and we're
52:17
still asking
52:17
for for changes.
52:20
Well, it's it's nice to have
52:20
people like you out there to
52:25
advocate
52:26
for anyone that's going through
52:26
this type of stuff.
52:29
'Cause it it can definitely be a
52:29
lonely place.
52:32
And if so if somebody is worried
52:32
about their loved one,
52:38
that they're, you know, on this
52:38
kind of dark path and maybe
52:44
going
52:45
to do something, I I maybe not,
52:47
but
52:48
What do you want them to
52:48
understand about starting that
52:50
conversation?
52:52
Be direct. We have to be direct.
52:55
And when when you're worried
52:55
about somebody,
52:58
you don't need to, you know,
52:58
sugarcoat the conversation.
53:02
It's like, are you having
53:02
thoughts of hurting yourself?
53:06
Like be very be very clear about
53:06
the question and and they'll be
53:10
like,
53:10
no, I d I don't have any plans
53:10
and that's that's fine,
53:13
but they smell and they might
53:13
still be in crisis.
53:15
so you like taking time to show
53:15
that you care,
53:19
I mean you can still be a
53:19
support for them.
53:21
if they are having suicidal
53:21
thoughts,
53:24
then we need to be curious and
53:24
ask more questions and figure
53:27
out
53:29
if they have a plan, if they
53:29
have access to lethal means,
53:32
make sure that we give them the
53:32
time away from that intense
53:37
pain.
53:37
Remember on earlier in the
53:37
podcast,
53:39
I was talking about this
53:39
cognitive constriction.
53:43
That time period for that
53:43
cognitive constriction is not
53:46
very long.
53:47
it could be minutes, minutes up
53:47
to you know,
53:51
like a couple hours. And so if
53:51
we could get them
53:57
that distance from the pain and
53:57
their lethal means.
54:00
So if we sit with them, you
54:00
know,
54:02
make sure that they stay safe
54:02
away from their lethal means and
54:05
and help
54:06
get them connected to resources,
54:07
that those those minutes are
54:07
critical in in saving lives.
54:13
so yeah, I mean, be caring and
54:13
be compassionate,
54:18
but be direct. I've witnessed
54:18
panels of people talking about
54:23
like
54:26
people who are suicidal and they
54:26
went and saw their provider and
54:30
they were
54:31
and like on the inside they were
54:31
just screaming,
54:33
like, please just ask me. Ask
54:33
me,
54:35
you know, if I'm having thoughts
54:35
of hurting myself or,
54:38
you know, if I'm having suicidal
54:38
thoughts.
54:41
And that person didn't ask
54:41
directly.
54:44
And when we say it, when we as
54:44
like the person who's coming in
54:48
to provide support and help,
54:48
when we say it,
54:51
then that person knows that
54:51
you're like a safe person to
54:54
talk to.
54:55
Like
54:55
you you're not shying away from
54:55
this like you're not gonna like
55:00
judge me
55:00
or you know think bad things of
55:00
me because I'm I'm feeling this
55:05
way you're you're coming in with
55:05
with help and understanding and
55:09
compassion
55:10
and it's okay to say the word
55:10
suicide we we don't have to shy
55:15
away from that word
55:17
in fact using that word helps us
55:17
save more people so practice
55:23
saying
55:23
it
55:25
If you need to, but know that
55:25
you're not gonna put this
55:29
thought
55:30
in someone's head that the
55:30
research shows us that very
55:33
clearly,
55:34
that if we're asking people if
55:34
they're having thoughts of
55:37
suicide,
55:38
that's not gonna be like, no, I
55:38
wasn't.
55:40
But you know, now that you
55:40
mention it,
55:41
that is not happening. That is
55:41
not happening.
55:44
so we can do a lot by really
55:44
checking in with people
55:51
and and then getting them the
55:51
time away.
55:54
from their pain and their lethal
55:54
means and then we want to
55:57
connect them
55:57
to resources. So sit with them
55:57
while they call nine eight,
56:01
nine eight eight, get them
56:01
connected to,
56:04
you know, the emergency
56:04
department if it if it's a
56:08
crisis situation
56:10
and then you know keep checking
56:10
in with them days later,
56:13
like call and say, Hey, how is
56:13
it going?
56:16
Have you, you know, connected
56:16
with your therapist?
56:18
Can I, you know, help you with
56:18
that before we go out to coffee
56:22
or,
56:22
you know, like we we
56:24
We can continue to check in on
56:24
people.
56:27
We don't need to like you're
56:27
you're no longer suicidal,
56:29
so okay, poof, I'm gone, right?
56:31
Yeah, I'm gone. Yep.
56:31
We're we're
56:32
still we're still we still gonna
56:32
be good friends and and check in
56:36
on people
56:36
and and have a caring a caring
56:36
attitude.
56:39
Yeah, and that that's one thing
56:39
I want to point out too is the
56:42
the importance of community in
56:42
this space.
56:44
It's it's so
56:46
Yeah.
56:46
important to have even if it's
56:46
just one person in your corner
56:50
that will listen
56:52
to you, you know, on the bad
56:52
days,
56:53
that can give you some advice,
56:55
can ask the hard questions. So
56:55
just like you said,
56:59
simply check on you.
57:03
So when when people finish
57:03
listening to this conversation,
57:06
what is one thing you hope they
57:06
carry with them?
57:11
I hope that you know you're not
57:11
alone.
57:13
And that there are resources,
57:18
there are organizations out
57:18
there that do great work.
57:22
I do a lot of work with the
57:22
American Foundation for Suicide
57:26
Prevention.
57:27
I also know Nami to be doing
57:27
really phenomenal work in this
57:31
space supporting mental
57:32
health. And there's community
57:32
and you know,
57:36
one of the things I haven't
57:36
described yet,
57:39
but I want to do this.
57:41
is that when you go to an out of
57:41
the darkness AFSP event,
57:46
we do what we call the bead
57:46
ceremony.
57:50
And there are a couple things
57:50
that are happening during this
57:54
bead ceremony.
57:55
One, it is an opportunity to
57:55
hold some space
58:00
to remember people that we have
58:00
lost to suicide.
58:05
and each
58:08
bead represents a different
58:08
connection to the cause.
58:12
But it's not just for people
58:12
we've lost to suicide.
58:14
It's for people who are sub
58:14
loving someone who is struggling
58:20
with their mental
58:21
health. It's for people who are
58:21
actively or previously struggled
58:25
with their
58:26
own mental health. And it's this
58:26
real visual reminder.
58:31
So, you know, we'd we go through
58:31
this ceremony and you hold up
58:35
your color beads when
58:36
it's your time and
58:38
And you get to, you know, I have
58:38
gold beads for the loss of a
58:41
parent.
58:41
I hold up my gold beads and I
58:41
and I remember my dad.
58:46
But then I also look around and
58:46
see how many other people
58:49
standing with
58:50
me who have also lost a parent
58:50
to suicide and know that I'm not
58:55
alone
58:56
in that specific type of loss.
58:58
And we go through all the
58:58
different colors,
59:00
whether it's a spouse, a
59:00
sibling,
59:02
a personal struggle, a military
59:02
or first responder.
59:07
somebody from the LGBTQ
59:07
community recently we've added
59:10
the construction industry
59:10
because the construction
59:12
industry
59:13
has been struggling really hard
59:13
with with suicide loss and and
59:18
it's this really
59:19
beautiful moment. And so I want
59:19
I want your listeners to know
59:23
that there
59:23
are communities out there who
59:23
pause and take time for this
59:27
every year
59:28
to really recognize how
59:28
impactful suicide is in our
59:33
communities.
59:34
But it's also
59:35
You know, it's a remembrance,
59:35
but it's also it's just that
59:39
building
59:39
of community and that hope and
59:39
that safety net that that we're
59:43
building as
59:44
we go to these year after year.
59:47
Yeah, that sounds really cool.
59:48
And but to me, you know,
59:52
the whole kind of suicide
59:52
prevention advocacy work sounds
59:56
like it could,
59:57
you know, be a little bit
59:57
overwhelming.
59:59
How do you protect your own
59:59
mental health while spending so
1:00:02
much time around this
1:00:04
topic?
1:00:05
I make I play with clay and I
1:00:05
make earrings.
1:00:08
Yeah. Can you make your hangers?
1:00:12
you know, I I have community in
1:00:12
places that
1:00:18
I like to connect with. I do
1:00:18
some running.
1:00:21
I I'm busy with my daughter
1:00:27
and sports and I try to have a
1:00:27
lot of variety.
1:00:30
yeah,
1:00:34
I
1:00:35
I try not to take on too much
1:00:35
because it is a lot.
1:00:39
and this is the f w the day that
1:00:39
we're recording is the final day
1:00:44
of September,
1:00:45
which is suicide prevention
1:00:45
month.
1:00:50
And so I have really put in a
1:00:50
lot of work this month to
1:00:56
put on events, attend events,
1:00:56
fundraise.
1:00:59
And I on my social media I did
1:00:59
this 30 days of hope every day.
1:01:04
I I I really don't like posting
1:01:04
on social media.
1:01:08
It feels like such a grind. I
1:01:08
don't know if you can relate or
1:01:11
not,
1:01:12
but but I did yeah. But I did.
1:01:12
I can relate. I can relate.
1:01:15
I showed
1:01:15
I showed up every day. you know
1:01:15
I I hope it had some sort
1:01:22
of impact for people out there.
1:01:24
Maybe it was just
1:01:25
you know, to prove to myself
1:01:25
that I could do it.
1:01:28
But you know, it was it was
1:01:28
really meaningful and and I
1:01:32
don't feel burnt out.
1:01:33
I feel inspired and but it but
1:01:33
you're right,
1:01:39
it is something to kind of check
1:01:39
in on and monitor and make sure
1:01:42
that I,
1:01:43
you know, don't push forward on
1:01:43
something that does mean so much
1:01:48
to me,
1:01:49
but at a disadvantage to my own
1:01:49
self.
1:01:52
So
1:01:53
I I I appreciate you asking the
1:01:53
question.
1:01:57
Yeah,
1:01:59
and where can people find you?
1:02:03
Yeah, so I have a website, finch
1:02:03
and fernstudio.com.
1:02:09
If you go there, you can find
1:02:09
links to all the different
1:02:13
social media platforms that
1:02:16
I post on. I do a blog there. so
1:02:16
I write a little bit about what
1:02:21
this work means
1:02:22
to me and then
1:02:25
probably at least through the
1:02:25
end of the year,
1:02:27
100% of all the proceeds from
1:02:27
the semicolon jewelry are going
1:02:31
directly
1:02:32
to the American Foundation for
1:02:32
Suicide Prevention.
1:02:35
If you are inspired to support
1:02:35
that suicide prevention work and
1:02:41
then
1:02:41
and then I kind of just make
1:02:41
pretty earrings too.
1:02:43
So if you wanna check out what
1:02:43
I've got,
1:02:45
Finch and Fern Studio dot com.
1:02:49
Perfect. Last question here is
1:02:49
we've covered a lot of ground
1:02:55
here.
1:02:55
Is there anything else that
1:02:55
you'd like to bring up that we
1:02:58
did not discuss?
1:03:03
I don't think so. I think we we
1:03:03
covered we covered all the all
1:03:07
the good stuff
1:03:08
and and I I mean I just wanna,
1:03:10
you know, take a minute and just
1:03:10
really appreciate your
1:03:13
vulnerability
1:03:13
in this space and sharing your
1:03:13
experience and and then making
1:03:18
space
1:03:18
on your podcast to talk about
1:03:18
what can be a really hard and
1:03:23
heavy topic.
1:03:24
And I think that we can have
1:03:24
these conversations where
1:03:28
they're healthy and really
1:03:32
work to reduce the stigma and
1:03:32
and I applaud you for for making
1:03:36
a change
1:03:37
in this space 'cause it it does
1:03:37
it does matter and it does have
1:03:41
an impact and probably a
1:03:41
profound impact that that we'll
1:03:45
probably never have
1:03:46
the benefit of knowing. So thank
1:03:46
you.
1:03:49
Honestly, truly.
1:03:51
Thank you. It means a lot
1:03:51
because it's not it's not always
1:03:55
the easiest thing
1:03:56
and it's at times it's hard to
1:03:56
be vulnerable.
1:03:59
I say it's my th free therapy
1:03:59
session each week,
1:04:02
but sometimes these there's
1:04:02
there's stories that I've had on
1:04:06
that are very,
1:04:07
very difficult to hear. But it's
1:04:07
I I want it to be an open and
1:04:12
safe place
1:04:13
for people to share and people
1:04:13
to know that they're not alone.
1:04:18
But also I want to return that
1:04:18
and say thank you for coming on
1:04:21
the show.
1:04:22
I really admire what you're
1:04:22
doing in the suicide prevention
1:04:25
space because
1:04:26
I think we need more of it and I
1:04:26
think we need people that are
1:04:29
willing
1:04:29
to speak up and talk about this
1:04:29
because it's it's important.
1:04:34
It's it's a huge problem in our
1:04:34
society that
1:04:39
we need to come to terms with
1:04:39
and be able to hopefully get
1:04:46
rid of the stigma.
1:04:48
and just stay open about it. So
1:04:48
thank you for coming on the show
1:04:52
and spending an hour with me.
1:04:52
And thank you to all the
1:04:56
listeners.
1:04:57
If this episode resonated with
1:04:57
you,
1:04:59
please give us a follow and
1:04:59
leave that five-star review.
1:05:02
Until next time.