Why Families Shouldn’t Wait for Rock Bottom | Mark Astor

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We've all heard the saying that

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you can't help someone until

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they're ready

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to help themselves. But what

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happens when waiting for that

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moment means it's already

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too late? What happens to the

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families who spend years

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watching someone they love

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struggle with addiction or

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mental illness,

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feeling helpless because they

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don't know what else to do?

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Welcome back to Overcome with

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Travis White.

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Today I'm joined by Mark Astor,

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an attorney who has dedicated

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his career to helping families

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navigate some

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of the most difficult situations

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imaginable.

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But Mark's story isn't just

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about his work.

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After experiencing financial

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struggles,

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losing his father, and

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witnessing a mental health

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crisis within his own family,

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Mark found a purpose that

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changed the direction of his

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life.

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In this conversation, we

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challenged the idea of hitting

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rock bottom,

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talk about

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The emotional toll mental

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illness and addiction can take

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on entire families,

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and explore why recovery doesn't

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always follow a straight line.

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And perhaps most importantly, we

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discuss why asking for help

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and taking action shouldn't have

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to wait until everything falls

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apart.

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Because sometimes overcoming

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isn't just about finding the

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strength to keep going.

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It's about recognizing when

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something needs to change.

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Let's get into it.

1:20

Hey Mark, why don't you start by

1:20

telling us about your journey?

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Well, first of all, Travis,

1:24

thank you very much for having

1:26

me.

1:26

so this is coming towards the

1:26

end of my 32nd year of

1:30

practicing law.

1:31

So it seems like only yesterday

1:31

I was in law school.

1:34

And now I'm gonna be 60 in

1:34

January,

1:36

so it's been a long it's been a

1:36

long road for me.

1:38

the law firm that I currently

1:38

own along with my wife as of

1:43

February of next year,

1:45

it'll be 11 years. And the

1:45

mission of the firm is to save

1:48

families whose loved ones

1:50

are suffering from substance

1:50

use.

1:51

mental health disorders and

1:51

failed attempts at recovery.

1:53

So we speak to to families from

1:53

all over the country,

1:57

even though we're based in

1:57

Florida.

1:58

and it's usually mums and dads

1:58

that call us because they have

2:03

an adult child with

2:04

a long history of substance use,

2:06

mental illness, treatment that

2:06

never seems to work if they'll

2:10

even go.

2:10

they're probably med non

2:10

compliant.

2:12

They may well have been a guest

2:12

of the state through either

2:15

the criminal justice system or

2:15

the mental health system.

2:18

And maybe even an overdose and

2:18

they call us

2:21

to fix that problem. so that's

2:21

what I've been doing for the

2:24

last eleven years.

2:25

I started the practice out of

2:25

the local library here in Boca's

2:29

home where

2:29

I live in February of 2016

2:29

because at the time I was broke

2:32

and had no money

2:33

to start a law firm. But I was I

2:33

was very mission driven.

2:37

but my story started a long time

2:37

before that.

2:40

So I I would tell you that when

2:40

I was in law school I

2:45

I wasn't particularly passionate

2:45

about the law.

2:47

You know, I was one of these

2:47

guys that,

2:49

you know

2:50

I'd show up two minutes before

2:50

class would start and some of my

2:54

fellow

2:54

law students had been in, you

2:54

know,

2:55

they'd already been there for

2:55

two hours pulling the latest

2:58

case law f you know,

2:59

in the library. And I'm like,

2:59

you know,

3:01

what are you guys doing? They're

3:01

like,

3:02

Well, we want to read the latest

3:02

case law.

3:03

And like, Who cares about the

3:03

latest case?

3:05

I'm just here to pass the class.

3:06

Right, that's it. and none of it

3:06

really to be quite honestly,

3:10

none of it really made a whole

3:10

lot of sense to me.

3:12

maybe 'cause I didn't grow up in

3:12

in the US,

3:15

but in any event

3:17

In nineteen ninety three I got

3:17

an opportunity to be a certified

3:20

legal intern

3:20

at the Palm Beach County State

3:20

Attorney's Office.

3:23

And so you can as a certified

3:23

legal intern,

3:26

you can intern with the state

3:26

attorney's office,

3:28

public defender's office, the

3:28

attorney general's office,

3:30

and you can pretty much do

3:30

everything that the lawyers can

3:33

do.

3:33

if you you know you have to take

3:33

certain classes within law

3:38

school so that

3:39

you can actually try a case and

3:39

you know the rules of evidence

3:41

and things

3:42

of that nature. And I have to

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tell you,

3:44

Travis, I knew five minutes into

3:44

my first real trial.

3:48

That's where I was supposed to

3:48

be.

3:49

but once I started trying real

3:49

cases,

3:53

even as a s a second year law

3:53

student,

3:55

everything started to make sense

3:55

to me.

3:56

It all came together. I'm like,

3:58

okay, now I why the why we have

3:58

rules of evidence.

4:00

Now I know why we have rules of

4:00

procedure.

4:02

I it all just sort of suddenly

4:02

just sort of came together.

4:05

and so I developed a real

4:05

passion for for trying cases and

4:09

being

4:10

and doing jury trials. That was

4:10

where I was that's where I felt

4:13

like,

4:13

you know, I didn't care if it

4:13

was I didn't care who was on the

4:15

other side.

4:15

I felt like I was good enough to

4:17

to give a run for their money.

4:18

And long story short is they

4:18

hired me before I popped out of

4:21

law school and

4:22

I was a full time assistant from

4:22

nineteen ninety four to nineteen

4:24

ninety nine.

4:25

I tried everything from petty

4:25

theft to capital murder.

4:28

I did about two hundred jury

4:28

trials,

4:30

which in five years is a a

4:30

ridiculous amount of trial work.

4:34

which meant I worked nights,

4:36

I worked on weekends, and I

4:36

didn't like to lose.

4:39

so I took my my job very

4:39

seriously.

4:42

I wasn't one of these

4:42

prosecutors that just phoned it

4:44

in.

4:44

If I was going to trial, I was

4:44

going in to win.

4:47

And if there was a bad dude on

4:47

the other side,

4:48

I wanted to put him in prison

4:48

for as long as I could.

4:50

So, you know and especially when

4:50

I started trying felonies,

4:55

first and second degree

4:55

felonies,

4:56

and you either had the victim of

4:56

a violent crime or the family of

5:00

a decedent.

5:01

If it was a murder case, I I

5:01

took my responsibility to to get

5:04

them some justice,

5:05

to give them some closure. I

5:05

took that I took that

5:09

responsibility very seriously.

5:12

because I couldn't unring the

5:12

bell for them,

5:15

but I could

5:16

I could give them the give them

5:16

the ability by moving forward to

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move forward.

5:20

So, you know, that's that's

5:20

really how I have always handled

5:24

my cases.

5:25

But anyway, one of the things I

5:25

noticed when I was very young,

5:28

a young prosecutor, and you're

5:28

full of you know,

5:30

piss and vinegar, right? Let's

5:30

lock up all the bad guys.

5:32

I started to notice that I was

5:32

seeing the same faces over and

5:36

over again.

5:36

I said, There's something not

5:36

right here,

5:38

what's going on? And a lot of

5:38

these folks had behavioral

5:41

health issues,

5:41

drug issues, mental health, and

5:41

they weren't able to get the

5:44

treatment they needed.

5:45

lot of them just didn't have the

5:45

resources.

5:46

and back then we didn't have

5:46

some of the specialty courts

5:51

that we now have.

5:52

So these days we have drug

5:52

court,

5:54

we have mental health court, we

5:54

have veterans courts,

5:56

we have specialty courts within

5:56

the criminal justice system that

5:59

are designed

5:59

to get people into treatment,

5:59

get them the help they need,

6:02

so that the charges can get

6:02

dropped and then they can move

6:05

forward their life.

6:06

And the idea is we get treatment

6:06

and they don't come back.

6:08

That's the goal, right? But in

6:08

the nineties when I was

6:11

prosecutor,

6:11

the mandate

6:13

And the mandate is actually the

6:13

same today in Florida,

6:16

which is to punish first and

6:16

rehabilitate second.

6:18

Well, if you keep coming back

6:18

and you've been on probation and

6:21

you violated,

6:21

at some point a judge is just

6:21

gonna throw you in jail or

6:24

worse,

6:25

the state penitentiary for as

6:25

for as long as they possibly

6:27

can.

6:27

But, you know, after after doing

6:27

that for five years,

6:31

Travis, I was I was tired and I

6:31

left the office and I went and

6:33

did some private defense work

6:33

and made a lot more money.

6:36

And I was really good at it,

6:36

actually.

6:38

but I did not get any

6:42

professional satisfaction out of

6:42

doing it.

6:44

I just didn't feel fulfilled.

6:44

even though I enjoyed kicking

6:48

the state's butt,

6:50

you know, on some of these

6:50

cases,

6:51

Yeah.

6:51

because intellectually it was

6:51

stimulator.

6:53

I'd never been on the other side

6:53

of the courtroom.

6:54

And I realized I was pretty damn

6:54

good at it.

6:56

but anyway, I I I around that

6:56

time in my life I'd also gotten

7:01

married

7:01

and divorced and I decided it I

7:01

just needed a break.

7:05

So in 2004 I took a year off,

7:05

went back to school up in

7:08

Washington,

7:09

DC, got a master's in law.

7:11

worked on a presidential

7:11

campaign for a whole year,

7:12

which was an incredible

7:12

experience.

7:14

But my candidate didn't win, so

7:14

I to come home.

7:17

I spent a couple more years back

7:17

in Florida trying to figure

7:21

stuff out.

7:22

I couldn't seem to get things

7:22

moving in the right direction.

7:25

And in two thousand and twelve I

7:25

took what money I had left and I

7:31

ran off to California. And I

7:31

spent three years in California

7:36

basically enjoying

7:38

the Bachelor

7:40

Bachelor lifestyle in Southern

7:40

California.

7:42

I mean, how kap how bad could it

7:42

be?

7:43

And while I was out there, I

7:43

took the bar exam out there

7:46

twice and failed it twice.

7:48

After three years I was broke.

7:50

I had no money left, so I to

7:50

come home.

7:51

I decided to take one more shot

7:51

at the bar exam because I had a

7:55

friend

7:55

of mine who had a criminal

7:55

practice out there that wanted

7:58

me to join him

7:58

and be his partner. and so I sat

7:58

down at the local library here,

8:03

I studied as hard as I could,

8:03

flew back out,

8:06

Took the exam and found out

8:06

about eight weeks later that I'd

8:08

gotten within

8:09

a percentage point, but still

8:09

failed it.

8:10

And just decided that maybe I

8:10

wasn't supposed to be there.

8:14

And of course, I'd now spent an

8:14

entire year's worth of time

8:18

studying

8:18

for this bar exam. And I'd

8:18

studied for three weeks for the

8:21

Florida Bar

8:22

and Post the first time. So my

8:22

ego was somewhat bruised.

8:24

I figured out I wasn't maybe as

8:24

smart as I thought I was,

8:28

right? Even after practicing law

8:28

for 20 years.

8:31

So here's what happened. I got

8:31

invited to a breakfast meeting.

8:35

one day down in Coral Gables,

8:35

which is about two hours south

8:41

of me.

8:41

And it was a seven thirty

8:41

breakfast meeting and there was

8:44

a guy there

8:44

who was going to be speaking

8:44

about the business side of

8:47

practicing law,

8:48

which is not something they

8:48

teach any lawyer at any law

8:51

school anywhere

8:52

in the country. They just don't

8:52

teach us the business side of

8:54

being a lawyer,

8:55

because there is a business

8:55

side.

8:56

And I saw him speak.

9:00

His name is R. John Robbins. He

9:00

spoke to a group of about twenty

9:03

lawyers.

9:03

And they looked him like he had

9:03

three heads.

9:05

But what he talked about really

9:05

resonated with me because I came

9:08

from

9:08

an entrepreneurial background.

9:09

You know, my dad had left school

9:09

at 14 and my mother left school

9:13

at 16.

9:13

So going to law school was a

9:13

really big deal.

9:16

No, I mean, nobody in my family

9:16

had even got out of high school,

9:18

and then I go to law school. So

9:18

it was a really big deal.

9:21

And you know, I watched my

9:21

father build businesses.

9:24

Some worked, some didn't, some

9:24

made money,

9:26

and towards the end of his life,

9:27

some of them really you know,

9:29

really left him

9:32

bro well I wouldn't say broke

9:32

but close to it and that was

9:34

tough to watch.

9:35

in any event I I I saw the guy

9:35

speak and I long story short,

9:40

they begged him for a job and he

9:40

hired me,

9:42

which was good because I didn't

9:42

have any money and nothing I was

9:44

had nothing going on. But I so I

9:44

spent a whole year working for

9:46

this guy,

9:47

learning about the business side

9:47

of practicing law.

9:49

But here's what I didn't know

9:49

when I went to work for him.

9:52

His company which is called How

9:52

to Manage a Small Law Firm,

9:56

at their very, very core, what

9:56

they really are,

9:58

is a personal growth company for

9:58

lawyers.

10:01

They believe that personal

10:01

growth has to precede financial

10:04

growth.

10:05

And I learned two very important

10:05

lessons while I was there.

10:07

Number one, the reason I was

10:07

broke and had nobody special in

10:12

my life

10:13

was because I'd failed to take a

10:13

hundred percent responsibility

10:16

Yeah.

10:16

for my decisions, both

10:16

personally and professionally.

10:18

And number two, I had decided up

10:18

when I wanted to go finally open

10:24

up

10:24

my own law firm, and I decided

10:24

if I was gonna do that,

10:26

I'd have to find up a group of

10:26

people that I could really

10:28

get passionate about helping.

10:30

So I could get that sort of

10:30

feel-good feeling back.

10:32

And I had a lot of friends and

10:32

family members who had issues

10:35

with substance

10:36

use and mental illness. And and

10:36

there was nobody out there that

10:39

had built

10:39

a law firm doing it. So in

10:39

February of 16,

10:42

I sat down in that very same

10:42

library.

10:44

I'd studied for the bar exam for

10:44

the third time.

10:46

And I opened up my law firm.

10:46

Because I had no money to get an

10:49

office.

10:50

So they had a little coffee shop

10:50

there and then pretty good

10:53

Wi-Fi.

10:53

And I was like, okay, this is a

10:53

good place to start a law firm.

10:55

And I got really cheap business

10:55

cards,

10:58

made a Vista print.

11:00

I ran around to treatment

11:00

centers handing up my business

11:02

card.

11:02

I called anybody and everybody I

11:02

could remember you know that I

11:05

knew.

11:05

I created a spreadsheet with all

11:05

their names and I called them

11:08

and I

11:08

had coffee and I had lunch. I

11:08

would do anything just to talk

11:11

to people that wanted

11:11

to hear what I was doing. And I

11:11

did not get a call about a

11:15

behavioral health case

11:16

for 14 months. Not one. So in

11:16

the meantime,

11:19

I took other cases because I had

11:19

bills to pay.

11:21

I took criminal cases. I took

11:21

family law cases that I

11:24

co-counseled with

11:25

a friend from law school. The

11:25

first case I had,

11:27

Travis,

11:29

was a student athlete that was

11:29

on scholarship here

11:35

at a university and he got

11:35

himself in a little bit of hot

11:38

water with

11:38

a female student. In fact him

11:38

and another student athlete,

11:42

the two of them got into trouble

11:42

with this female student.

11:44

So you can use your imagination.

11:46

Mm-hmm.

11:47

but if you're familiar with the

11:47

Cornell case that's just been

11:50

happening,

11:51

Cornell 7 case,

11:52

Yeah.

11:52

that's exactly what it was. and

11:52

the irony is I've actually

11:56

In the last six months been

11:56

doing a ton of national

11:58

television,

11:58

which I'm happy to share with

11:58

you.

11:59

But one of the cases I got

11:59

called to talk about was the

12:02

Cornell Seven.

12:03

Why? Because I'd handled the

12:03

case just like that.

12:06

So fortunately for us, we had a

12:06

bunch of text messages where the

12:09

girl

12:09

had solicited the boys and it

12:09

saved the kid's scholarship.

12:12

It also kept him out of prison

12:12

for the rest of his life because

12:14

we

12:14

had the state attorney's office

12:14

breathing down our neck and they

12:16

wanted

12:16

to prosecute this guy and they

12:16

wanted to lock him up for the

12:19

rest of his life.

12:20

So

12:22

that was really my first year

12:22

and eleven months in,

12:24

as you mentioned, I lost my dad

12:24

unexpectedly.

12:26

Two days after I buried him, I

12:26

had a family member that

12:29

completely fell

12:29

off the wagon and had a

12:29

psychotic break.

12:31

So these were crazy times for

12:31

me.

12:34

But I I really didn't have any

12:34

choice.

12:36

I had to keep moving forward

12:36

because I had nowhere else to

12:38

go.

12:38

I mean I'd already I was broke.

12:40

I mean I where was I going? You

12:40

know,

12:42

and I now I had to figure out

12:42

how to pay for a funeral too.

12:44

So these were wild times.

12:49

but in two thousand seventeen I

12:49

had enough to get a small

12:51

office,

12:51

which we still even have. I met

12:51

my wife,

12:53

my now wife, and for the next

12:53

six years it was just the two

12:58

of us doing everything, you

12:58

know,

12:59

working eight days a week,

12:59

twenty five hours a day,

13:01

meeting with clients, drafting

13:01

pleadings,

13:05

doing the sales and marketing,

13:06

running to court, I mean you

13:06

name it,

13:07

we did it. And it was only been

13:07

the last three years that we've

13:10

hired staff

13:11

and we now we're now a team of

13:11

fifteen and this year is another

13:14

record year for us.

13:15

Every year the business has

13:15

grown.

13:16

so

13:18

I get to sit and talk to people

13:18

like you about my journey and

13:21

hopefully inspire some

13:23

people. But maybe there'll be

13:23

somebody who

13:25

T

13:25

who's who's watching and says,

13:26

you know, maybe we can save our

13:26

loved one.

13:27

And so that's what we do. The

13:27

mission of the firm hasn't

13:30

changed really.

13:30

How we do things has changed.

13:30

I've developed some newer and

13:35

different skill sets

13:36

to to to deal with the issue,

13:36

but I've become all of the

13:39

things that have happened

13:41

in my life, whether it happened

13:41

to the family member or this

13:44

this first case

13:44

I had has has come full circle.

13:46

I'm you know

13:48

I'd like to think I'm I'm a

13:48

nationally recognized expert

13:50

on behavioral health because

13:50

while there are other lawyers

13:52

trying to do what we do,

13:53

none of have anywhere near my

13:53

experience in the criminal

13:56

arena,

13:57

nor do they have my experience

13:57

in the behavioral health space.

13:59

So, you know, the last six

13:59

months I've done Fox Live Now

14:03

six times,

14:04

I've done Nancy Grace five

14:04

times,

14:05

I've been on British TV, can

14:05

Canadian radio,

14:08

Australian TV, you know, all of

14:08

these cases have suddenly,

14:12

you know, like Lindsay Clancy,

14:13

which is an axy case. The last

14:13

case they tried as a prosecutor

14:16

back in ninety nine.

14:17

was an attempted first ring

14:17

murder case with an insanity

14:19

defense.

14:20

There'll not that many lawyers

14:20

out there have even tried an

14:22

insanity case.

14:23

So I've had some very different

14:23

experiences,

14:27

but they've all come together.

14:28

And it's it's made me, I think,

14:30

a better lawyer for it. But

14:30

also,

14:31

you know, I've learned how to

14:31

build a business that happens to

14:34

sell legal services.

14:37

And I I I love that you found

14:37

that piece of it that you're

14:40

passionate about

14:41

and the group of people that you

14:41

like to help.

14:44

'Cause I think that's important.

14:45

But was there

14:47

Very important.

14:47

was there ever a time, you know,

14:49

when the emotional weight of

14:49

everything that you were

14:52

experiencing

14:52

and just do all the business

14:52

side yourself and like you said,

14:58

working eight days a week,

14:58

twenty five hours a day,

15:01

did you ever question whether

15:01

you could keep doing this work?

15:07

I still question myself. I still

15:07

question myself.

15:10

You know, I was talking to a

15:10

colleague of mine actually,

15:12

somebody I met in the last year,

15:13

who built who had similar

15:13

circumstances.

15:16

He'd been broke and he built a

15:16

law firm that helps business

15:18

owners.

15:19

And our our paths have been very

15:19

similar.

15:20

He also got married and and he

15:20

like me has stepchildren and I

15:24

you know,

15:25

funny enough, I had him I was

15:25

talking to him the other day and

15:27

I You know,

15:27

Ross, I said, Do you ever feel

15:27

like do you ever feel like not

15:30

getting out

15:30

of bed in the morning? He said

15:30

all the time.

15:32

I said, my god, I'm so glad you

15:32

said that.

15:34

He said, Why? He said because I

15:34

have that feeling too.

15:36

You know, sometimes I just don't

15:36

feel like getting out of bed.

15:39

I'm tired. but I you know,

15:42

I I here's the deal. I don't

15:42

know if you do know who

15:45

Alexander Usic is.

15:46

So he's

15:49

I don't that name is not

15:49

familiar to me.

15:49

he's a professional fighter and

15:49

he is the he was

15:51

the undisputed cruiserweight

15:51

champion of the world and

15:53

the undisputed heavyweight

15:53

champion of world.

15:55

And he was being interviewed

15:55

about a year ago,

15:58

and the interviewer said to him,

15:59

They said, How do you motivate

15:59

yourself?

16:01

And and he said, I d I don't use

16:01

motivation.

16:04

And they said, well, how do you

16:04

keep doing this stuff?

16:06

He said, I don't have

16:06

motivation.

16:07

What I have is discipline. And

16:07

the reporter said to him,

16:11

Well, what's the difference? He

16:11

said,

16:13

Motivation means you do it when

16:13

you feel like it.

16:16

Discipline means you do it even

16:16

when you don't feel like doing

16:19

it.

16:19

You do it anyway. And so that's

16:19

that's how I keep moving

16:23

forward.

16:23

Some days I'm not motivated, but

16:23

it's my discipline that keeps me

16:28

moving forward

16:28

and doing things even when I

16:28

don't feel like doing it.

16:31

Because that's how winning is

16:31

done.

16:34

Doing shit when you don't want

16:34

to do it and doing the stuff you

16:36

don't want to do.

16:37

That's the key to winning and

16:37

simply refusing to give up.

16:40

That's it. I'm I'm not the

16:40

greatest lawyer in the world.

16:43

I I'm not. But and I have

16:43

competition,

16:46

nipping at my heels, copying my

16:46

stuff.

16:48

But it's really easy. I just

16:48

outwork That's how I got through

16:52

college.

16:53

I just outworked everybody. I'll

16:53

take I'll take hard work over

16:57

talent every

16:58

day of the week and twice on

16:58

Sunday.

17:00

Hard work always beats talent

17:00

when talent don't work hard.

17:04

Always.

17:05

Yeah, and it's I just think

17:05

about my own personal experience

17:08

throughout

17:09

my career and s you see some of

17:09

the best talent become the

17:14

laziest workers because

17:16

they know they're good and they

17:16

just don't have the discipline

17:19

to

17:20

to keep learning and growing. So

17:20

I I love the analogy that you

17:25

gave between

17:25

or the you explaining that

17:25

discipline versus motivation

17:30

because I

17:31

I feel you there. There's I feel

17:31

the same way.

17:35

You know, I don't I don't do a

17:35

lot of court work these days,

17:37

Travis. I have two associates

17:37

that are really good lawyers.

17:39

But every once in a while we

17:39

have a conflict and we have,

17:42

you know, if we have three

17:42

hearings set,

17:44

there's only two of us, I'll do

17:44

a hearing.

17:45

But I go into that hearing 110%

17:45

prepared.

17:49

Even today, I do not go in there

17:49

and wing it.

17:52

I don't fly by the seat of my

17:52

pants.

17:54

Right? I am prepared. My

17:54

witnesses are prepared.

17:58

My argument is prepared. My case

17:58

lawyer is prepared.

18:01

Because I don't like to lose.

18:03

And I know that preparation

18:03

beats all the talent in the

18:07

world.

18:07

You could be the next Johnny

18:07

Cochran,

18:09

right? I if I go in and win a

18:09

case,

18:12

it's because I'm prepared. Now I

18:12

happen to have a good skill set

18:14

in the courtroom too, that

18:14

helps.

18:15

But being prepared is the key.

18:18

And even today when I when I go

18:18

into court,

18:21

I I am one hundred percent, one

18:21

hundred and ten percent ready to

18:24

go.

18:24

'Cause I don't wanna I don't

18:24

wanna lose,

18:26

I don't wanna decline it down.

18:28

Yeah, of course. And f with all

18:28

your experience I imagine that

18:32

you've worked with

18:34

a ton of different types of

18:34

people,

18:36

professionals, parents,

18:36

students,

18:38

business owners, you name it,

18:38

you've probably worked with

18:41

them.

18:42

Yeah, I mean the one thing about

18:42

behavioral health is doesn't

18:45

discriminate.

18:46

I mean it just doesn't. It

18:46

doesn't discriminate,

18:49

for sure. And for sure.

18:49

Travis.

18:50

And that's

18:50

that's one thing that I've

18:50

learned doing this podcast.

18:52

But what are some of the warning

18:52

signs that families might

18:56

overlook because their

18:57

loved ones still appear to be

18:57

functional?

19:01

Okay, so we'll have to define

19:01

functional,

19:03

but some of the red flags that I

19:03

see.

19:05

maybe they are sleeping during

19:05

the day,

19:08

they're up all night. maybe

19:08

they've been scri prescribed

19:12

medications,

19:13

they won't take Maybe they've

19:13

eat maybe they've even been to

19:16

treatment

19:17

but never stay long enough.

19:17

their eating habits have

19:20

changed.

19:21

They're eating sugary and junky

19:21

food.

19:22

Maybe their bathing habits have

19:22

changed,

19:25

not for the good, right? They

19:25

bathe but not that often.

19:27

Maybe

19:28

Maybe they don't wanna go they

19:28

won't go to the doctor

19:30

regularly.

19:30

They don't wanna go to the

19:30

dentist regularly.

19:32

Maybe they can't hold down a

19:32

job.

19:34

Maybe they flunked out of

19:34

school.

19:36

maybe they can't maintain any

19:36

kind of relationship with

19:40

anybody

19:40

of an intimate nature. Maybe

19:40

they've become aloof and don't

19:44

wanna don't wanna really

19:45

have anything to do with anybody

19:45

in the family.

19:47

they're hanging out with folks

19:47

they never used to hang out

19:49

with.

19:50

Maybe they've been arrested.

19:50

They've been involuntarily

19:52

committed.

19:53

Maybe they had an overdose.

19:53

Maybe they've they're even op

19:56

even openly using drugs

19:57

in the house.

19:58

And through all of this, they're

19:58

telling their f their family,

20:01

there is nothing wrong with me.

20:02

I'm fine. Right? They're in

20:02

complete and utter denial about

20:06

the fact their life

20:07

their life is in complete and

20:07

utter chaos.

20:11

And they're and and not and

20:11

they're they're just not moving

20:14

forward.

20:15

So, I mean, that's a sort of

20:15

laundry list of red flags,

20:18

but typically we see some of or

20:18

all of of those things,

20:22

Travis, when we're dealing with

20:22

somebody who's got a behavioral

20:24

health issue.

20:25

And the f sometimes the family

20:25

is like.

20:29

Sometimes the family's in

20:29

denial,

20:31

right? Because th there is a

20:31

strong strong feeling

20:36

of guilt within the family unit.

20:39

You know, I s I've spoken to so

20:39

many parents over the over the

20:42

years,

20:42

Travis. You know, a lot of

20:42

crying mothers and quite a few

20:44

crying fathers.

20:45

And what happens is, especially

20:45

when they're in front of you,

20:47

they they're doing this or

20:47

they're butting heads.

20:49

And one one one parent is

20:49

saying,

20:52

it's your father's fault. He was

20:52

an alcoholic.

20:55

Well, it was your mother's fault

20:55

because she was a schizophrenic.

20:58

And they play this blame game.

20:59

Wha and the reason they they

20:59

tend to do that is because

21:03

otherwise they feel like

21:05

they did something wrong. you're

21:05

a bad father,

21:08

you're a bad mother. And and

21:08

first of all

21:12

That is not the case. Okay. It's

21:12

not about good parent,

21:15

bad parent. Okay. It's not about

21:15

somebody's gr you know father

21:18

being

21:19

an alcoholic or a schizophrenic.

21:20

Okay. First of all, I I do not

21:20

believe in looking in the

21:23

rearview mirror,

21:24

because when you look backwards,

21:25

only you only see one thing, and

21:25

that's pain.

21:28

Right? Two, playing the blame

21:28

game does not solve the problem.

21:33

Okay. The goal here is to move

21:33

forward,

21:35

right? I'm the ghost of

21:35

Christmas future.

21:37

I want to paint you a picture of

21:37

what things could be like one

21:40

year from now.

21:41

So I tell families, look, stop.

21:43

This is not your fault. You want

21:43

bad parents.

21:47

It just happened. Right? I mean

21:47

this is a disease.

21:51

And if God forbid somebody in

21:51

the family had cancer,

21:53

would it be your fault?

21:56

Did you give him cancer? It just

21:56

happened.

21:58

Sometimes things in life happen,

22:01

and this is one of those things

22:01

that happens.

22:03

But if you don't address it,

22:03

it's going to continue and it's

22:07

gonna get worse.

22:08

And the consequences can be

22:08

severe.

22:11

So let's have a conversation

22:11

about how we move forward and

22:14

deal with this.

22:15

And and that's how I lay it out.

22:17

And I try to come from a place

22:17

of love and compassion.

22:20

Because by the time they come to

22:20

us,

22:21

Travis, you know, people are

22:21

tired.

22:24

They're exhausted, right? I ask

22:24

every I ask every parent,

22:27

every parent I've ever spoken

22:27

with,

22:29

I've always always asked them

22:29

one question and they always

22:31

give me

22:31

the exact same answer. That

22:31

question is,

22:34

when was the last time you had a

22:34

good night's sleep?

22:36

And you know what they tell me?

22:37

They don't remember. They don't

22:37

remember because they because

22:42

they because they've

22:43

been programmed, almost

22:43

programmed,

22:46

to not fall asleep too too too

22:46

deeply,

22:49

right? Because they might get

22:49

that call about an overdose or

22:52

an arrest.

22:53

Or some form of involuntary

22:53

commitment.

22:55

Something worse. Tragic, right?

22:58

So so so

22:59

Mm-hmm.

23:00

so nobody's sleeping. And it's

23:00

this this thing that's going on

23:04

in the

23:04

in within the family unit is

23:04

slowly destroying it.

23:07

It's why parents get divorced.

23:08

It's why the siblings move out,

23:10

because they can't stand to be

23:10

around it.

23:11

So trying to bring the family

23:11

unit together is important.

23:16

Getting especially the parents,

23:17

even if they're divorced, on the

23:17

same page is key and critical to

23:20

moving forward

23:21

and solving the problem.

23:23

Yeah, I love that.

23:24

And looking back doesn't help.

23:25

I love that 'cause to me I I

23:25

feel like we've almost created

23:29

this type

23:30

of family structure, the blame

23:30

game and holding it all

23:34

together.

23:34

We've created it ourselves in

23:34

society because we we make it

23:39

seem like you're

23:41

supposed to be holding

23:41

everything together emotionally

23:44

and not let it go,

23:45

not let it out. Which I

23:48

Yeah.

23:48

I don't agree with at all.

23:50

Yeah, I mean look, there there's

23:50

certainly there ha it's better

23:54

than it

23:54

now than it used to be, but

23:54

there was a certain stigma

23:56

attached to this,

23:57

right? You know, that somehow if

23:57

you had an adult child who had

24:00

a substance use disorder, or if

24:00

you had a child that had a

24:03

mental health issue,

24:03

you must have done something

24:03

wrong.

24:05

you must have been a horrendous

24:05

parent.

24:07

So maybe we shouldn't talk about

24:07

this,

24:08

because otherwise everybody's

24:08

gonna look at us and we might be

24:10

shunned

24:11

by the community, right? And and

24:11

it's better now than it was,

24:14

but you see that yeah we see

24:14

that a lot and and

24:19

I I hope families that see this

24:19

realise that it is not about

24:23

who did something wrong. It's

24:23

not about how you look to this

24:26

community.

24:26

It's about how do we move

24:26

forward.

24:28

How do we how do we help this

24:28

person so we can save your

24:31

family?

24:33

Yeah,

24:34

for sure. But thinking about the

24:34

future,

24:37

how do we create an environment

24:37

where people feel safe enough

24:41

to admit they're struggling

24:41

before they reach a breaking

24:44

point?

24:46

Well, here's the here's the

24:46

deal,

24:47

Travis. It's it's not about it's

24:47

not about the patient hitting a

24:51

break-in point.

24:52

It's about the family hitting a

24:52

breaking point.

24:55

Right? I always tell families,

24:57

because they'll say, Well, I'm

24:57

waiting for him to hit rock

24:58

bottom.

24:59

I'm not waiting for him to rock

24:59

bottom,

25:00

I'm waiting for you to hit rock

25:00

bottom.

25:02

Well, what does that mean? Well,

25:04

his rock bottom, her rock bottom

25:04

might mean she's dead.

25:06

Okay? Because she's not capable

25:06

of making the decision.

25:10

So then the question I have for

25:10

you is.

25:12

Are you sick and tired of being

25:12

sick and tired?

25:14

Are you sick and tired of seeing

25:14

this and living in the chaos

25:18

that typically goes

25:19

along with it? Because if you

25:19

are,

25:21

now we're ready to have a

25:21

conversation about what it takes

25:24

to move forward.

25:25

If you're not, that's okay. I

25:25

mean,

25:28

it I'm I live in a no-judgment

25:28

zone,

25:30

so I'm not here to tell you what

25:30

to do.

25:31

I'm here to give you some

25:31

options.

25:33

Option one is we do nothing. And

25:33

just like the last five years,

25:37

nothing's going to change and

25:37

it's going to get worse.

25:39

And the consequences of that.

25:41

Could be d could be dire. Option

25:41

two is we do something.

25:44

What does that look like? Well,

25:46

what are your goals? What are

25:46

you trying to achieve?

25:49

Let's have that conversation

25:49

because if you want to go down

25:52

that path,

25:53

which is the path that leads to

25:53

recovery,

25:54

I'm open to having that

25:54

conversation.

25:57

But it's going to take a

25:57

commitment of time,

25:59

energy, and resources, right?

25:59

And sometimes by the time

26:03

families come to me,

26:04

they're tired, right? They've

26:04

been dealing with this for a

26:07

long time.

26:08

And they may well have spent a

26:08

boatload of money on treatment

26:11

and maybe even another

26:12

lawyer. And for whatever reason,

26:14

things didn't work, right? That

26:14

doesn't mean the treatment was

26:16

bad.

26:17

It doesn't mean the lawyer was

26:17

bad.

26:18

It just means there was a reason

26:18

things didn't work.

26:20

And invariably the reason things

26:20

don't work is because,

26:23

especially when it comes to

26:23

treatment,

26:25

is either they weren't in the

26:25

right facility that was

26:26

clinically appropriate,

26:27

or they didn't stay there long

26:27

enough.

26:29

Okay. And if there was a problem

26:29

with the lawyer,

26:32

maybe it's because you got a

26:32

court order and then there was a

26:35

violation

26:36

and you didn't let the lawyer

26:36

enforce the court order.

26:38

Which is what makes it work. So

26:38

if you you know,

26:42

if you tie the hands of a

26:42

lawyer,

26:43

right, or you're in the wrong

26:43

facility,

26:45

then of course it didn't work.

26:46

Whose fault is that? I don't

26:46

know.

26:50

Does it matter? How do we move

26:50

forward?

26:58

It's just this is all great.

26:58

This is fantastic.

27:01

And one thing that kind of comes

27:01

to mind is you brought up so a

27:05

great point that

27:06

I think is overlooked a lot is

27:06

you focus on the families

27:09

because too often

27:10

in mental health we focus just

27:10

on the individual.

27:14

But you said it's it's not about

27:14

the individual breaking having

27:18

the breaking point,

27:19

it's the families.

27:21

Yeah, because it's the family's

27:21

gonna make the decision because

27:23

their love

27:23

Decisions, yep, because they're

27:23

not capable,

27:25

on their love their loved one

27:25

can't make it.

27:26

yeah. Yeah.

27:27

Their mind is has

27:27

been hijacked. And I tell every

27:27

family,

27:29

it looks like your loved one,

27:29

sounds like them,

27:31

walks like them, it's the

27:31

proverbial duck.

27:33

But it ain't them. It really

27:33

isn't.

27:35

Okay. If you want that person

27:35

back,

27:38

we gotta go down this this other

27:38

route here.

27:40

But that's gonna take time.

27:40

Okay,

27:42

because recovery's a journey,

27:42

it's not a destination.

27:44

Okay, and it typically takes

27:44

about a year.

27:47

I'm not telling you that you

27:47

need us for a year.

27:50

But it's going to take a year,

27:52

not only for your loved one to

27:52

experience recovery,

27:54

but be able to maintain it for

27:54

the rest of their life.

27:57

Because the goal here is to get

27:57

it right the first time.

27:59

And statistically speaking, and

27:59

we know this from our own

28:01

experience,

28:02

if you can keep somebody in

28:02

recovery for a year,

28:04

there's a 70% chance they stay

28:04

in recovery forever.

28:07

You get them to five years, it's

28:07

83%.

28:09

So the big jump is that first

28:09

year.

28:12

And the first three to six

28:12

months of that first year is

28:14

everything.

28:15

If you can get them through the

28:15

first six months,

28:17

you are halfway there already.

28:20

Now you gotta work at the

28:20

continuum of care.

28:22

You live in a sober, you you you

28:22

live in a sober residence.

28:25

Okay, you take medication, you

28:25

get a sponsor,

28:28

you go to meetings, you continue

28:28

with some type of therapy.

28:30

You do what you need to do to

28:30

maintain your recovery and

28:35

continue

28:36

to develop the skill set, right?

28:38

And you don't go back to the

28:38

environment you went to you were

28:40

living in before.

28:40

You don't hang out with the

28:40

individuals that don't support

28:43

recovery.

28:43

You do what you need to do to

28:43

keep moving forward.

28:46

Otherwise, you backslide and

28:46

that

28:49

Yeah. Well

28:51

That's not a good thing.

28:51

Sometimes it's

28:51

part of recovery, but sometimes

28:51

it means we gotta start again.

28:54

It happens.

28:55

Yeah, and it's it's

28:57

usually really important to set

28:57

boundaries when it comes to

29:00

Yes.

29:01

mental health and substance

29:01

abuse and everything,

29:03

it's it's important. And I

29:03

remember

29:05

I would agree.

29:06

learning this in therapy myself.

29:07

My therapist said, No, that's a

29:07

that's a negative relationship

29:11

that

29:12

you have going on. You need to

29:12

set that boundary and sometimes

29:15

you need

29:16

to push people out.

29:19

A hundred percent. I think and

29:19

it you know,

29:20

I know this myself. I think as

29:20

I've gotten older and and as our

29:24

business has grown,

29:25

I I think you ha I think as you

29:25

get older,

29:29

Travis, you s you tend to your

29:29

your circle of people that you

29:33

share things with

29:34

really shrinks. Right. And

29:34

that's separate apart from you

29:37

know what we're talking

29:38

about here with behavioral

29:38

health.

29:39

But I think as you get older and

29:39

it you're America,

29:41

I think, right? I saw a wedding

29:41

band on.

29:44

Sorry. I noticed these things.

29:45

No, no, you're good.

29:46

What what I

29:47

You when I was a trial, I tell

29:47

my wife this when I was a trial

29:49

lawyer.

29:49

My wife used to say, When you

29:49

pick in a jury,

29:51

what did you look at? I said I

29:51

looked at two things their hands

29:53

and their feet.

29:54

I tell you a lot about a person.

29:55

So I always look at someone's

29:55

hands.

29:57

I noticed if someone's wearing a

29:57

b wedding band,

29:59

so I saw yours. Mine I didn't

29:59

have one tonight,

30:01

but I normally wear one. I lost

30:01

my train of thought.

30:06

I I'm well I'm digressing, but

30:06

what here's what I was saying.

30:08

As you get older, your circle of

30:08

friends really shrink.

30:11

And if you're a married guy like

30:11

me,

30:12

right like us, the most

30:12

important

30:16

people that to you are your your

30:16

s you know,

30:18

your spouse, if you have

30:18

children,

30:20

I have two stepchildren, right?

30:21

They're the most important

30:21

people and my mom who's still

30:22

Yes.

30:23

around. Right. And and sometimes

30:23

if you have friends who are

30:28

not supportive of how you live

30:28

your life,

30:31

you have to eliminate these

30:31

people.

30:33

And as I've gotten older, I've

30:33

eliminated quite a few people

30:35

who did

30:36

not share my vision of how I

30:36

wanted my life to be.

30:39

Because I spent a lot of time

30:39

back there trying to figure out

30:43

things.

30:43

I spent a lot of years. I wasted

30:43

a lot of time.

30:46

I mean, I was forty, what am I

30:46

almost sixty?

30:48

I was forty-eight before I

30:48

really got my act together.

30:52

Forty eight years old. I was

30:52

broke.

30:56

I nobody special, nothing

30:56

happening.

30:58

Everything in my life has really

30:58

taken off in the last really in

31:02

the last eleven years. And I

31:02

couldn't have done it without my

31:05

wife,

31:06

who I s when I met her in

31:06

seventeen told her I was never

31:07

gonna get married again.

31:08

And now we've been married

31:08

almost three years,

31:10

and I'll tell you it's the

31:10

single best decision I've ever

31:12

made in my life.

31:13

Without question. There's not

31:13

even a close second.

31:16

So

31:19

You know, I think a lot of

31:19

friends people I were friendly

31:21

with they enjoyed

31:21

it when I was single, right?

31:21

'Cause I was,

31:23

you Trip the Life Fantastic.

31:23

Then I became boring and got

31:25

married.

31:25

Well, 'cause I wanted a

31:25

different life.

31:30

And well I will say that shout

31:30

out to the wives out there

31:34

because they're they're

31:35

it's I can say my wife

31:35

specifically she's the one that

31:39

pushes me to to

31:40

do better and to sh she's a big

31:40

motivator in the things that I'm

31:44

doing.

31:44

We'll

31:45

I love that.

31:46

put it that way.

31:46

Sounds she sounds awesome.

31:48

And so I I do have a question

31:48

though.

31:51

It's so there's you know,

31:54

we're often told that a person

31:58

can't receive help until they're

31:58

ready to accept it.

32:01

what do you believe like do do

32:01

you believe this theory

32:08

or what do you believe can be d

32:08

dangerous about like you know

32:13

that thought?

32:14

I don't agree with that. I do

32:14

not agree with that.

32:17

Sometimes a person's not ready

32:17

to receive help initially.

32:24

Okay, well that's fine. But if

32:24

you if you take the position,

32:28

well, you know, we're not gonna

32:28

get help until they're ready,

32:30

then they may never be ready and

32:30

you may be making funeral plans.

32:32

And I hate to be blunt about

32:32

this,

32:34

Travis, but that's the reality

32:34

of the situation.

32:36

And every year, nearly every

32:36

year,

32:38

we do lose somebody, right? And

32:38

typically it's it's a family.

32:42

The that called us and couldn't

32:42

make the commitment for whatever

32:44

reason,

32:45

then we called them back three

32:45

months,

32:46

six months, a year later, and

32:46

they lost the person.

32:48

Okay, and I'm not finding fault.

32:50

I'm just telling you that's the

32:50

reality of the situation.

32:53

Right? So I I say that coming

32:53

from a place of love,

32:57

but I'm never gonna sugarcoat

32:57

this stuff,

32:59

and I certainly won't BS a

32:59

family.

33:01

I'm gonna tell you what the

33:01

consequences are if you don't do

33:04

anything.

33:04

That's one of them. Right? And

33:04

so and so the idea that we have

33:09

to wait until they're

33:10

ready is just simply.

33:11

Not true. If you're ready to

33:11

make the decision,

33:14

then we're gonna make it for

33:14

them.

33:16

And yeah, I'm gonna go to court

33:16

and I'm gonna have a judge tell

33:19

them they're going

33:20

to treatment. And if they don't

33:20

go,

33:21

then yeah, I might have to have

33:21

them put in the county jail.

33:25

And I know that sounds severe,

33:26

but better the county jail than

33:26

the ground.

33:28

And I'm gonna tell you, Travis,

33:32

in all the years I've been doing

33:32

this,

33:33

I've never had anybody who

33:33

decided the county jail was a

33:36

better option than

33:37

treatment. And sometimes they

33:37

went to treatment,

33:39

you know.

33:40

Really ticked off, all upset at

33:40

me,

33:43

all upset with parents, and then

33:43

three months later,

33:45

it was like a completely

33:45

different person.

33:48

And the family's like, wow.

33:48

Yeah,

33:51

because that's what treatment

33:51

can do.

33:54

Can we save everybody? No, I

33:54

don't think that's I think it's

33:59

naive.

34:00

And I used to believe I'm gonna

34:00

save everybody.

34:02

That's not reality. Can we save

34:02

a lot of people?

34:05

You bet you. And we can save

34:05

them by somebody else making

34:08

Yeah.

34:08

the decisions they cannot make.

34:11

Because if you wait for them to

34:11

make it,

34:12

it may never happen and it

34:12

probably won't.

34:17

'Cause their disease doesn't

34:17

want to go to treatment.

34:19

It wants to stay in the chaos.

34:21

That's where it's happy.

34:24

Yeah, for sure. And let's face

34:24

it,

34:27

people don't love change.

34:30

They don't like it. It's it's

34:30

hard.

34:31

And that's but that's yeah,

34:31

exactly.

34:34

It's uncomfortable, Travis. It's

34:34

uncomfortable.

34:37

And I I've always been

34:37

told that if you're not living

34:37

uncomfortable,

34:39

you're not progressing. So

34:39

that's

34:42

Mo my mentor

34:42

used to tell me, get comfortable

34:42

being uncomfortable.

34:45

That's

34:46

Yeah, I had a boss that said

34:46

that.

34:47

how you know things

34:47

that's how you know things are

34:47

gonna change.

34:49

And it could be going to the gym

34:49

and pushing yourself a little

34:51

harder,

34:51

right? It's uncomfortable.

34:51

That's where the change happens.

34:53

It's like it's doing the things

34:53

that you don't want to do,

34:56

right? I mean we're talking now,

34:57

right? It's you know, we're work

34:57

we're talking after hours.

35:00

You could have been sitting at

35:00

home watching T V,

35:02

so could I. But we're not. We're

35:02

having a conversation because

35:06

you know what?

35:07

By having this conversation, we

35:07

might change some lives here.

35:09

Right?

35:11

We did something that you know,

35:13

and I tell my wife, I still I

35:13

still work on the weekends.

35:15

Do you know? I work I I st I on

35:15

the on the weekends,

35:18

Saturday, I man the phones all

35:18

day long.

35:20

I give my staff the day off. I

35:20

man the phones.

35:22

And I do it most of Sunday too.

35:27

It's it never stops.

35:29

I don't have I'm gonna be 60

35:29

in I'm gonna be 60 in January.

35:31

I don't have time to sit on on

35:31

the on the couch and watch

35:34

football all weekend.

35:35

I don't mind catching a game,

35:35

but I'm not sitting there for

35:38

eight hours

35:38

on Saturday and eight hours on

35:38

Sunday.

35:40

I don't have the time. I'm

35:40

running out of time.

35:42

I'm on the downside of how much

35:42

time I have left on the planet.

35:46

And I have way too many goals

35:46

that I need to achieve and way

35:48

too many people that

35:49

need our help. So I can't sit on

35:49

the couch all weekend.

35:53

It just simply can't do that.

35:57

And

35:58

since you've been doing this

35:58

work,

35:59

helping people, is there a

35:59

certain case that sticks out to

36:03

you where,

36:04

you know, the family came in and

36:04

just everything was chaotic,

36:08

but you just saw a big change in

36:08

that case.

36:14

is there anything specifically

36:14

you can talk about without

36:16

necessarily breaking

36:17

any HIPAA laws?

36:18

Yeah.

36:18

Yeah, it's interesting you say

36:18

that.

36:19

So there was this one case, I

36:19

had mum and dad came to me.

36:22

They had a son, he was in his

36:22

mid twenties,

36:24

and I and he was really paranoid

36:24

and delusional and pretty

36:29

psychotic.

36:29

You know, this new legalized

36:29

marijuana is a disaster.

36:33

It really is. Anyway, I we I

36:33

filed them we filed a case

36:36

against him on Marchman Act,

36:37

which is a statute that's unique

36:37

to Florida,

36:39

and we got him you know, we got

36:39

him into court and he

36:42

reluctantly agreed

36:43

to go to treatment and he was

36:46

Really upset and he was kind of

36:46

in my face.

36:48

And I said, look,

36:52

and I said the parents was like,

36:53

you know, he's mad at us. I'm

36:53

like,

36:54

yeah, it's but it's not him

36:54

that's mad at you,

36:57

it's his disease. So I said,

37:00

you know, they're like, Well,

37:00

should we call him?

37:02

I'm like, No. You're gonna let

37:02

him do what he's gotta do.

37:04

He's gonna go to treatment, and

37:04

meanwhile,

37:06

you're gonna do what you need to

37:06

do,

37:07

which is to work work on

37:07

yourselves,

37:08

because whether you know it or

37:08

not,

37:10

you've been traumatized by this.

37:11

So you're gonna do your work and

37:11

he's gonna do his,

37:13

and when he's ready, he's gonna

37:13

pick up the phone and call you.

37:16

And then three months later we

37:16

went back into court because we

37:18

wanted to

37:19

get a bit more time under the

37:19

court order.

37:20

And he was completely different.

37:22

He was nice, he was polite to

37:22

me,

37:24

to his parents, to the judge.

37:27

So we get to see that one

37:27

eighty,

37:29

but it takes time. And sometimes

37:29

it happens,

37:32

you know, in the first three to

37:32

six months.

37:34

And sometimes it can take a

37:34

little longer.

37:36

It just depends on the person

37:36

how far down the proverbial

37:39

rabbit hole they are.

37:40

Right? What are they really

37:40

dealing with?

37:42

But you know, when you see it,

37:45

you're like, Okay, now I

37:45

understand what I'm that's

37:48

that's it.

37:48

'Cause now I see it. But it can

37:48

take time and and the relief on

37:53

the parents is

37:56

Yeah, it's it's quite a sight to

37:56

behold.

37:58

I'll leave it at that.

38:00

yeah, I could I can only

38:00

imagine.

38:02

All my kids right now, I have

38:02

four kids,

38:05

and they're all six and under.

38:06

And I just hope and pray that

38:06

none of these things will

38:11

happen,

38:12

that they won't have any of

38:12

these deal with any of these

38:15

issues that are going

38:16

on in the world, but it's I

38:16

can't really stop it from

38:19

happening because they have

38:20

to experience their own lives.

38:21

And

38:22

Yeah.

38:23

I think of myself as just a

38:23

parent,

38:25

I could just do my best and hope

38:25

they make the right choices.

38:28

Yeah, I look and and it's a

38:28

different environment from when

38:31

you know,

38:31

I know from when I grew up. I

38:31

mean we have,

38:32

you know, we have these things,

38:34

right? Which allow us which

38:35

Mm-hmm.

38:36

are wonderful pieces of

38:36

technology that allow us to

38:37

connect with the whole world.

38:38

But it also allows, especially

38:38

young people,

38:41

to be just bombarded by all

38:41

kinds of crazy stuff,

38:46

some of which is probably not

38:46

good for them.

38:49

And so that's I think I think

38:49

that I you know,

38:55

my my stepchildren are twenty

38:55

seven and thirty,

38:57

they're a little older.

38:58

So I I tip my proverbial hat to

38:58

you,

39:01

Travis. You got a full you got a

39:06

I I think that you're gonna do a

39:06

good job.

39:08

I think it's gonna be

39:08

challenging.

39:09

And that's not to deter you. I

39:09

think the parents can that that

39:13

can can

39:13

do a good job. And I can tell

39:13

that just the way you you the

39:16

way you talk about them,

39:17

you're committed to this. I

39:17

think they'll do well.

39:20

Well, there'll be bumps on the

39:20

road.

39:21

I think they're bumps in the

39:21

road for everybody.

39:22

That's just the way life is.

39:24

yeah,

39:25

for sure. For sure. Speaking of

39:25

father,

39:29

I wanna go back to when you lost

39:29

yours.

39:30

looking back, what did losing

39:30

your father and witnessing that

39:34

family member

39:35

the crisis teach you about

39:35

yourself that you might have

39:40

not ever learned otherwise?

39:44

Yeah. So here's what happened.

39:45

You know, I was familiar, we

39:45

call that statute here in

39:50

Florida,

39:51

it's called the Baker Act. Okay.

39:52

It's named after somebody who's

39:52

named whose last name was Baker.

39:55

And every statute every state

39:55

has a version of of that

39:58

statute.

39:59

And it is a it is Florida's

39:59

mental health statute that

40:03

allows the state

40:05

to take custody of you when

40:05

there's an immediate need

40:07

for mental health intervention.

40:09

So that was my

40:13

That was a very personal

40:13

experience for me.

40:14

I was familiar with that statue,

40:16

but I'd never had it happen to

40:16

in my in my world.

40:19

And then something interesting

40:19

happened.

40:22

COVID came along. And a lot of

40:22

other lawyers started to call me

40:27

and said,

40:27

Our clients are getting baker

40:27

acted.

40:29

Do you have any experience with

40:29

this?

40:31

Because I've spoken to a bunch

40:31

of lawyers and they tell me you

40:34

can't

40:34

do anything about this. And I

40:34

said,

40:36

as it happens, I do have

40:36

experience with this.

40:39

And I went and I started reading

40:39

the statute and I said,

40:41

I think I could win these cases.

40:43

And fast forward, I've now filed

40:43

over a thousand cases

40:48

and successfully gotten people

40:48

out of Florida's broken

40:51

draconian mental health

40:52

system. I'm probably the state's

40:52

leading expert on the Baker Act.

40:56

So I understand both sides of

40:56

the coin,

41:00

right? I know how to put in, I

41:00

know how to get out.

41:04

And I also understand how the

41:04

criminal world brings everything

41:07

together.

41:08

You see, you know, we started

41:08

talking about like the Lindsey

41:11

Clancy case.

41:11

That that dealt with postpartum

41:11

depression.

41:14

Well, I've represented a couple

41:14

of women who got who got baker

41:17

acted because

41:18

of that. I've represented those

41:18

women.

41:19

I'm familiar with the insanity

41:19

defense.

41:21

Okay. So all of these things,

41:21

all these systems,

41:25

they all work together. They do.

41:27

And if you don't understand how

41:27

they work together,

41:29

then you can't I don't think you

41:29

can do a good job for the client

41:31

because

41:31

you can't give them counsel.

41:31

Well,

41:33

what happens if they have a

41:33

mental health issue?

41:34

They got arrested. I don't know,

41:35

call so and so.

41:37

Well, I know, because I worked

41:37

in this system for 20 years.

41:39

I get it. I'm not going to take

41:39

your criminal case or refer you

41:42

to somebody,

41:42

but here's what's going to

41:42

happen.

41:44

Right? And here's how we

41:44

navigate them out of the

41:48

criminal system

41:50

and get them over here so you

41:50

can start making decisions.

41:52

Because if you let the state do

41:52

it for you,

41:54

you probably won't like what you

41:54

get back if you get them back.

41:57

So we got to get them out. But

41:57

na how knowing how to cross over

42:02

from criminal

42:03

to civil is the key to getting

42:03

them help.

42:06

Well if you don't know how to do

42:06

it or you get the wrong criminal

42:08

defense lawyer

42:09

on the other side who only wants

42:09

to fight and doesn't care about

42:12

saving the client,

42:13

then you have a problem on your

42:13

hands.

42:16

So you've got to be able to

42:16

navigate the system.

42:18

That's the key. And that only

42:18

comes from experience.

42:25

Very well said. And it's kind of

42:25

switching gears here again.

42:30

Okay.

42:31

Sorry, my brain is kinda all

42:31

over the place.

42:32

There

42:34

so for the families out there

42:34

that have sent their loved one

42:38

to treatment maybe multiple

42:38

times and watch them relapse.

42:43

What would you say to them when

42:43

they're beginning to lose hope?

42:50

Yeah, and that that that is a

42:50

big a big big part of it,

42:53

right? Is that by the time they

42:53

get to us,

42:54

have they lost hope? So I think

42:54

there's a couple of things.

42:57

First of all, sometimes a

42:57

relapse can be be car can be

43:00

part of the recovery journey,

43:02

right? It doesn't mean things

43:02

have failed.

43:04

It doesn't mean the treatment

43:04

didn't work if they relapsed.

43:06

The question is what do we do

43:06

after the relapse,

43:09

Travis? Do we do we get back

43:09

into treatment or in some form

43:14

or another?

43:15

Or do we just say, they

43:15

relapsed,

43:16

failed, doesn't work?

43:19

Because if that if we're just

43:19

gonna throw our hands on and

43:21

Well it doesn't work,

43:22

then I then I think we've lost

43:22

the battle.

43:25

Right? And

43:27

Here it.

43:28

some sometimes, as a friend of

43:28

mine said to me,

43:29

sometimes you gotta declare war.

43:30

Right? We're gonna declare war

43:30

on this and we're gonna and

43:34

we're not going

43:35

to give up on the person and

43:35

we're gonna get back into

43:37

treatment.

43:37

And we're gonna make sure they

43:37

stay there long enough.

43:41

And this reminds me of something

43:41

a friend said to me once.

43:44

So so I I do have I deal with

43:44

some anxiety and depression

43:48

issues myself.

43:49

And I found out my friend has

43:49

dealt with some of the same

43:54

stuff.

43:54

And he was telling me that it

43:54

took him five

44:00

or six therapists to actually

44:00

find the right one.

44:03

So what you're saying on hearing

44:03

is,

44:07

you know, recovery is not a

44:07

straight line.

44:09

It's it's not linear at all.

44:11

You know what it's like, Travis?

44:12

It's like the stock market.

44:12

Right?

44:15

It's like the stock market. It

44:15

goes up,

44:17

it goes down, it goes up, it

44:17

goes down.

44:19

And just lately it's been going

44:19

up and down like crazy,

44:21

right?

44:22

Go crazy, yeah?

44:23

Right? If you stay in the stock

44:23

market,

44:24

even with all the up and down,

44:26

and you stay in it long enough,

44:27

the trajectory is up, is

44:27

upwards,

44:29

right? You'll make money if you

44:29

stick with it.

44:31

If you jump in and jump out,

44:31

right,

44:32

you'll you're playing it's like

44:32

playing it in Vegas.

44:35

Recovery's the same way. You

44:35

have good days and you have bad.

44:38

You have good days and bad. But

44:38

as

44:40

As we move through time, the

44:40

good days start to outweigh the

44:43

bad.

44:44

That's recovery. But it takes

44:44

time.

44:47

And as long as you give it time,

44:49

there's a very higher

44:49

probability that you'll get the

44:52

result,

44:53

right? Same in the stock market.

44:54

If you stay in it long enough,

44:55

right, and you don't keep buying

44:55

and selling and jumping out and

44:58

then jumping in,

44:59

right? You'll probably, you

44:59

know,

45:01

have a nice little pot of gold

45:01

sitting there if you leave it in

45:03

there long enough

45:04

and you work the program, right?

45:05

It's the same thing. It's just

45:05

time.

45:10

And it's and I s I always see it

45:10

as not only time but finding

45:15

those techniques

45:17

at work because sometimes these

45:17

behavioral issues may not go

45:22

away.

45:22

You have to have the tools in

45:22

place so when you see something

45:26

coming up,

45:27

see that challenge or that rut

45:27

in the road,

45:29

you can take a step back and

45:29

think,

45:31

you know what, I know how to get

45:31

through this now.

45:37

Yeah. But I also think you have

45:37

to find somebody who can help

45:42

you who

45:43

can show you the path, right?

45:44

Yep, of course.

45:45

And that that's what we try to

45:45

do.

45:48

Of course.

45:51

I

45:52

if so for someone listening that

45:52

looks success successful on the

45:56

outside

45:56

but is privately falling apart,

45:58

what is one thing you want them

45:58

to understand about asking for

46:02

help

46:02

and beginning to rebuild?

46:04

Yeah, you know, I I I I do a lot

46:04

of these days I do a lot of

46:08

public speaking.

46:09

I do a lot of continuing legal

46:09

education for the legal

46:13

profession.

46:13

And I will tell you, Travis,

46:13

I've put a number of lawyers

46:16

into treatment.

46:17

I've represented some lawyers.

46:18

my profession is not immune to

46:18

these issues.

46:22

In fact, they say if you're a

46:22

lawyer,

46:23

you're twice as likely to

46:23

develop a substance use

46:25

disorder.

46:26

And the one thing that I tell

46:26

every group of lawyers that I

46:30

speak to is that

46:32

if you have a problem, either

46:33

You can certainly reach out to

46:33

me.

46:35

But the Florida bar, actually,

46:37

and most state bars are really,

46:38

really good about helping

46:38

lawyers.

46:39

They're the same for doctors. So

46:39

I tell you know,

46:43

you don't have to suffer in

46:43

silence.

46:44

Ask for help. But on the other

46:44

hand,

46:47

especially for the parents out

46:47

there,

46:49

you know, they say to me, Well,

46:51

this they say a couple of

46:51

things.

46:53

Number one, I typically ask,

46:53

especially the mums,

46:55

you know, how do you know

46:55

there's a problem?

46:57

And you know what they tell me?

46:58

They just know. Mums are very

46:58

instinctive.

47:02

Okay, that's number one. Number

47:02

two,

47:03

I I I tell them, be nosy about

47:03

what's going on in your in your

47:06

loved one's life.

47:07

Ask them. You know, you seem

47:07

off,

47:09

how are things doing? Maybe

47:09

they'll tell you.

47:11

You know, I'm smelling marijuana

47:11

in the house.

47:14

You smoking? You vaping? I am.

47:17

When did that start? Right? I

47:17

noticed that you,

47:20

you know, you didn't you that

47:20

you've been staying up late,

47:23

or I noticed your grades are

47:23

slipping.

47:24

You know, these people that

47:24

you're hanging out with,

47:27

they're not the who are these

47:27

people?

47:29

That's not the usual group of

47:29

people you hang out with.

47:31

So it's about being nosy and

47:31

asking.

47:33

They might just tell you. And if

47:33

they don't,

47:37

okay, let's start to document

47:37

some things.

47:40

We're starting to see some red

47:40

flags here.

47:42

Maybe there's a problem.

47:48

And it's and I think it's

47:48

important to teach your kids to

47:52

be open

47:54

not even kids, other family

47:54

members just to be open with you

47:58

and have those hard

47:59

conversations.

48:02

Yeah, I think it's important.

48:02

You know,

48:04

I don't think you can sweep it

48:04

under the rug.

48:05

It just gets worse. You can't

48:05

ignore this.

48:09

It it won't go away by just, you

48:09

know,

48:10

saying, okay. It'll go away,

48:10

I'll wake up tomorrow and it'll

48:13

be gone.

48:14

No, it doesn't work

48:15

Yeah.

48:15

that way.

48:16

Yeah, I thought that once and it

48:16

was all a lie.

48:19

It it took me after medical

48:19

problems,

48:21

it took me fifteen years to get

48:21

help with my mental health.

48:24

So and I thought it was I was

48:24

just gonna wake up one day after

48:27

going

48:27

to the therapist and it would

48:27

all disappear and he's like,

48:31

No, it's not gonna all

48:31

disappear.

48:33

You have to work on this. So it

48:33

was a big eye opener to me.

48:37

Yeah.

48:38

I got it.

48:40

And

48:41

and so after helping, you know,

48:42

probably thousands of families

48:42

at this point,

48:44

navigate addiction and mental

48:44

health crisis,

48:47

has your definition of

48:47

resilience changed?

48:55

Mm.

48:57

I don't know if it's changed,

48:57

Travis.

48:59

What I will tell you is that I

48:59

know I know that it takes

49:03

a tremendous commitment by

49:03

families to see this through.

49:10

And I I have such enormous,

49:13

not just compassion, but respect

49:13

for families who go down this

49:17

road because they

49:18

want a different outcome for

49:18

their families.

49:19

Because when you lose somebody,

49:22

especially an adult child who

49:22

leaves before you know,

49:25

who passes before parents.

49:27

That is a that is a family

49:27

destroying destroying event.

49:32

It destroys the family for good.

49:35

Permanently. The parents,

49:38

the siblings, they're never the

49:38

same.

49:46

Life's life's just tough. Like

49:46

it's just crazy to me.

49:54

D

49:57

In a the time that you've seen

49:57

have have you had to what's it?

50:01

Sorry, I hit I hit like a a

50:01

brick wall here.

50:08

No worries, take your time, my

50:08

friend.

50:08

It's all good.

50:08

let me switch gears here.

50:13

Sorry. I I've had a little bit

50:13

of a headache today,

50:15

so I'm I'm trying to

50:18

Just two guys having a chat, no

50:18

problem.

50:24

kind of going back to the

50:30

Have

50:31

you ever had to deal with a

50:31

client they like do you see an

50:33

average

50:34

of times that like somebody has

50:34

to actually go through treatment

50:37

to actually

50:38

get it to work? Or is it usually

50:38

like a first-time thing that

50:41

you've seen with like

50:42

with your clients, or is that

50:42

kind of like,

50:43

okay, well they and I know that

50:43

everybody's plan is like time is

50:48

different,

50:48

but do you see like kind of a

50:48

pattern for your clients?

50:52

Like, okay, well, you know, this

50:52

guy relapsed and has to go again

50:58

or

50:59

You get what I'm trying to say?

51:00

Does that make any sense at all?

51:01

Yeah, I I think I know where

51:01

you're going with this.

51:03

So I I the families that work

51:03

the program,

51:06

that make the commitment and

51:06

stay with it,

51:07

tend to get great results. Th

51:07

there are families though,

51:11

Travis, that will you know, will

51:11

do all of the filings,

51:13

right? We'll file an emergency

51:13

petition,

51:15

we'll get it granted, the court

51:15

issues a court order,

51:17

sending them to treatment, and

51:17

now we're thirty days in and

51:20

they're like,

51:20

we don't need it anymore. Well,

51:22

what do you mean you don't need

51:22

it?

51:23

Well, w our loved one's in

51:23

treatment and he says he's got

51:26

it.

51:26

Well what what do you mean?

51:26

Well,

51:27

he's fine now.

51:29

You've been dealing with this

51:29

for five years or ten years or

51:31

sometimes even longer.

51:32

And he's been in at a multiple

51:32

treatment centers and he's never

51:35

stayed longer than

51:35

30 days. And every time he

51:35

leaves,

51:39

or he tells you he's got it, and

51:39

he's never had it.

51:43

And so what happens is families,

51:47

no, this time is going to be

51:47

different.

51:49

Why? Well, he said this time he

51:49

told us this time is different.

51:53

It's not any different, it's the

51:53

disease.

51:57

Bullshitting the parents, excuse

51:57

my language.

51:59

Right? Not their loved one, the

51:59

disease.

52:01

The disease is lie will lie,

52:01

cheat,

52:04

and steal to get out of

52:04

treatment.

52:06

Because if you put somebody to

52:06

treatment,

52:07

it's potentially the end of the

52:07

disease.

52:08

Or at least we get it in check.

52:10

And what happens is they say,

52:10

no,

52:13

no, we got it. Go go go into

52:13

court,

52:15

pull all the court orders. Okay.

52:17

And what happens? The proverbial

52:17

poop hits

52:21

Repeat.

52:22

the fan about a week after we

52:22

pull everything.

52:23

And now we're starting all over

52:23

again.

52:27

Right. I mean, we had one mother

52:27

that called us.

52:29

She changed her mind six times.

52:32

And by the time we got her kid

52:32

into treatment,

52:35

it was too darn late. Now the

52:35

kid didn't die,

52:37

but by that point, you know,

52:37

there just wasn't enough

52:41

evidence to even prosecute

52:43

the case, and she was all upset.

52:44

And I was like, Listen, you you

52:44

made a start and stop six times.

52:49

You called us six months ago.

52:53

Six months ago was the time to

52:53

do something.

52:54

By the time we got here,

52:56

You haven't seen him in a month.

52:57

Who knows if he's even using?

52:57

And you're upset.

53:01

Well, he kept telling me he had

53:01

it.

53:04

And I said, yeah, he kept

53:04

telling you that.

53:05

He'd been telling you that for

53:05

five years that he had it.

53:09

And he's never had it and he

53:09

still doesn't.

53:11

The problem is, I don't now have

53:11

enough evidence to prosecute

53:14

this case.

53:15

Because I'm a lawyer and I still

53:15

have I'm still bound by rules

53:19

of ethics and evidence and

53:19

substantive law and procedural

53:23

law.

53:24

I have to have evidence.

53:26

that he's actually using, if you

53:26

haven't seen him for a month or

53:29

six weeks

53:29

or two months, I don't have

53:29

anybody to tell the court that

53:33

he's still using,

53:34

even if he is. I don't have that

53:34

evidence anymore because you

53:37

delayed things.

53:38

And he knew now he now knew what

53:38

we were doing and he's avoided

53:42

you.

53:45

And to me that just sounds goes

53:45

back to what you said earlier on

53:48

in the show.

53:48

To me it's a problem with y the

53:48

parent being in denial.

53:52

But it's it's also I I believe

53:52

that y the guy

53:58

was able to manipulate because

53:58

he's learned that he could do it

54:01

before,

54:01

so it's gonna stop him from

54:01

doing it again.

54:03

He's manipulating her. Of course

54:03

he

54:04

Uhhuh.

54:04

is. And now he knows what's

54:04

going on.

54:06

Because she's told him. I'm

54:06

gonna I'm gonna get a court

54:09

order.

54:10

Okay, I'll go into treatment.

54:10

I'm not getting a court order.

54:13

Okay, I'm coming out. I mean,

54:13

what whatever the circumstances

54:16

were,

54:16

but it was this yo-yoing effect.

54:18

We draft the pleadings, they'd

54:18

stop us.

54:20

We go into court, get a court

54:20

order.

54:22

No, pull the court order. He's

54:22

in treatment,

54:24

he's out of treatment. Listen,

54:27

I'm I'm running a law firm. I

54:27

mean,

54:29

I can't I I have all the

54:29

compassion in the world,

54:32

but at some point.

54:33

Either we're doing this or we're

54:33

not.

54:35

And if we're not going to do it,

54:36

that's fine. This is a

54:36

no-judgment zone.

54:38

But the responsibility, the

54:38

decision is made by you,

54:42

not by me. He's not my adult

54:42

child.

54:45

He's yours. And if you decide

54:45

you don't want to move forward,

54:48

that's fine. But we talked about

54:48

the

54:52

Yeah.

54:52

consequences of not doing this,

54:53

and now you're seeing it.

54:57

And

54:58

with all the cases that you've

54:58

dealt with,

55:01

especially when it comes to, you

55:01

know,

55:04

the substance abuse and mental

55:04

health stuff,

55:07

how do you keep your own mental

55:07

health in check?

55:11

Yeah, there was a time when I

55:11

wasn't doing a good job with

55:13

that,

55:14

Travis. here's what I did.

55:18

I decided that I I didn't want

55:18

that to I decided I wanted to

55:21

spend more time working

55:22

on the business than in it. What

55:22

does that mean?

55:25

It means as a general I don't

55:25

carry a caseload anymore.

55:28

I have two wonderful associates

55:28

and they do the courtwork.

55:31

Because court work is tiring.

55:31

You for every hour you're in the

55:34

courtroom,

55:35

it's four or five hours just for

55:35

that one hour to prepare.

55:37

So I as a general I don't do

55:37

courtwork.

55:40

Now

55:41

Do I do every once in a while I

55:41

get called in to do a case?

55:43

Sure. But I'm I spend a lot of

55:43

time,

55:46

you know, doing the TV stuff and

55:46

talking to people like you and

55:49

putting

55:50

out social media content, d

55:50

sharing the mission of the firm.

55:53

Because if nobody knows I'm

55:53

here,

55:55

it doesn't matter how clever I

55:55

am or how good I am.

55:57

Nobody knows me. So I spend a

55:57

lot of time doing that and I

56:01

enjoy that aspect

56:02

of working on the business and

56:02

sharing the message.

56:04

So that th for me that's been

56:04

big,

56:08

right? I've stepped back.

56:10

But I still do consults with

56:10

families all the time.

56:12

I think I did two or three this

56:12

week already.

56:14

I've got one tomorrow night. I

56:14

think we're doing it at eight

56:16

o'clock at night.

56:17

Right? So I still speak to

56:17

families all the time.

56:20

But I'm not I'm not gonna do the

56:20

court work.

56:23

Now, do my wife and I, do we

56:23

monitor every case?

56:26

You bet ya. Yeah, I mean I I get

56:26

regular updates from the

56:29

attorneys.

56:29

We have a standing meeting once

56:29

a week just to go over every

56:32

case.

56:32

But normally I'm you know, if

56:32

it's a new client,

56:34

you know, I'm gonna be like, you

56:34

know,

56:36

I'm gonna be like white on rice.

56:37

I want to know.

56:38

Has it been filed? What

56:38

happened?

56:39

What did the judge do? Right.

56:39

I'm mon I'm monitoring these

56:42

things,

56:43

as is my wife. I'm just not

56:43

doing all of the all of the the

56:47

the paperwork 'cause

56:48

I just don't have the bandwidth

56:48

for it.

56:50

And I can't grow the business if

56:50

I don't share the mis share the

56:52

mission.

56:53

And if I don't grow the business

56:53

I can't help more people.

56:57

The more people I help the

56:58

the better the bit the business

56:58

more the business grows and I

57:00

can help more people

57:01

and I can hire more people and I

57:01

can help more people.

57:02

See it's kind of sick circular,

57:04

right? It all sort of w feeds

57:04

itself.

57:06

But if I'm stuck running to

57:06

court and preparing for court,

57:09

then I don't get to do a podcast

57:09

with you because I'm busy

57:12

preparing or

57:12

I'm just too tired to do it. So

57:12

that's how I've tried

57:16

Yeah.

57:16

to manage myself is to step back

57:16

from doing the stuff that was

57:19

the most tiring.

57:20

And and now I do the stuff that

57:20

I find

57:22

Yeah, and I I love that.

57:22

the most enjoyable and

57:22

pleasurable.

57:25

I love that 'cause it's that's

57:25

important to keep a healthy

57:30

mental state of mind.

57:31

Yeah. 'Cause 'cause

57:31

we're absorbing somebody else's

57:31

energy and right,

57:34

if they're in crisis, you know,

57:36

yeah, I mean you absorb that.

57:40

So here's this is just a kind of

57:40

a generalized question I ask

57:45

most

57:46

of my guests. just there's such

57:46

an array of responses I get to

57:52

this.

57:53

What do you think is the biggest

57:53

stigma when it comes to mental

57:56

health?

57:57

I think I think it's what you ha

57:57

what we talked about earlier,

58:00

which is that which is that the

58:00

somebody has to has to hit rock

58:03

bottom.

58:04

They've got to make the

58:04

decision.

58:05

I think I think that's the

58:05

biggest stigma.

58:08

I think the other stigma is that

58:08

somehow,

58:12

you know, this is someone's

58:12

fault.

58:14

It's mum's fault, it's dad's

58:14

fault,

58:16

it's the grandparents' fault.

58:16

Right?

58:18

And so I think those two things

58:18

are are are really,

58:22

you know, are really stigmatized

58:22

this.

58:24

But it it's no one's fault.

58:27

This is a disease and like any

58:27

disease it can be treated.

58:30

And some and and I don't say I

58:30

don't use the word cured.

58:33

Well you got a full house then,

58:34

my friend. Right? But it's it's

58:34

all good.

58:38

Yep, I yeah, you could hear my

58:38

kids screaming in the

58:38

background.

58:38

It's all good, brother.

58:39

It's all good. it's a bit like

58:39

cancer.

58:43

You don't cure cancer, you're

58:43

going to remission.

58:45

You don't cure a behavioural

58:45

health issue,

58:49

you're going to recovery. Now if

58:49

you had cancer,

58:52

right, and you were in

58:52

remission,

58:53

you would do you would do

58:53

anything and everything you can.

58:56

To stay in recovery. Excuse me,

58:58

to stay in remission, right?

58:58

You'd you'd eat healthy foods.

59:01

You'd probably abstain from

59:01

alcohol and smoking cigarettes

59:03

and doing recreational drugs.

59:03

You might exercise.

59:05

Right? You might say, I'm gonna

59:05

spend a little more time in

59:08

nature.

59:08

You would do the things that are

59:08

necessary to tr to to really

59:12

to prolong remission for as long

59:12

as possible.

59:15

Same with recovery. You do what

59:15

needs to be done.

59:19

I you know, I've been very

59:19

blessed.

59:21

We have some we've made some

59:21

really wonderful friends.

59:25

Right, I have a good friend of

59:25

mine.

59:26

He's a world-class clinician. He

59:26

happens to be in recovery.

59:29

And I will tell you, I've I I I

59:29

I think it's Wednesday night.

59:33

Every Wednesday night, without

59:33

exception,

59:36

he goes to a meeting. He works

59:36

on his recovery weekly,

59:41

daily. He does what he needs to

59:41

do so that he doesn't have a

59:46

relapse,

59:47

so he doesn't go back. Okay? And

59:47

I learned a lot from him and his

59:51

recovery journey.

59:52

He also happens to be

59:54

arguably the best clinician I've

59:54

ever worked with.

59:55

But he but he lives he lives

59:55

recovery.

1:00:00

He doesn't just preach it, he

1:00:00

lives it.

1:00:03

And that really is the key to

1:00:03

all of it is living it.

1:00:07

Right? It's like, I mean, it