When Getting Out of Bed Feels Impossible: The Reality of Chronic Depression

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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health Podcast.

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I'm your host, Travis White.

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This is a place where you can share your mental health stories.

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I'm very excited for tonight's guest.

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I'm speaking with Nita Sweeney.

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Nita is a best-selling author, mindfulness coach, mental health advocate, ultra

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marathoner, and dog mom.

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Sorry, all that was like a tongue twister to me.

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But welcome, welcome to the show.

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Thank you, Travis.

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I'm really excited to be here.

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Yeah.

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I think we're going to have a great conversation.

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And without wasting any time, I'm just going to turn the microphone over to you and have

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you tell us about your journey.

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Well, you know, it started a long time ago.

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I'm not young-ish anymore.

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And I probably always had depression.

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I know I always had anxiety.

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I was always kind of a melancholy kid.

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And I didn't realize how much it was impacting me until I had made my way through college

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and was actually in law school.

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And that's when I started having my first really severe panic attacks.

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And then I actually practiced law for about 10 years.

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And in the ninth year, I got so depressed that I just couldn't function.

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mean, it just couldn't function.

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I was showing up at work and I think they, know, people there knew, but people were, this

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was the mid nineties and people didn't really talk about it.

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You know, it wasn't.

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as mainstream as it is now, or I mean, it's not mainstream, mean, know, I just didn't talk

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about it.

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And I wound up suicidal and wound up gratefully in the psych ward as opposed to dead

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because that would have possibly happened and got really good mental health because I was

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a, I mean, I'm privileged, I'm white obviously, but I was a partner in a law firm and I

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had this amazing kind of mental health package.

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uh

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insurance package and all this kind of stuff and so was able to get care that a lot of

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people don't get and I've sort of had struggles on and off for many years.

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I always wanted to write.

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I've gone in and out of various diagnoses.

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The one that finally stuck which didn't happen until I think it was like 2004-2005 was

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bipolar 2.

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So the

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That's kind of my official diagnosis that with suicidal ideation, bipolar two, anxiety,

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you know, all of that.

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And yeah, and I always wanted to write.

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always wanted to write.

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did most of what I did when I was, when I practiced law was writing and research and

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that's what I loved best.

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And I couldn't get a book published.

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I couldn't get a book finished.

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I couldn't get, you know, I'd get a few magazine articles published and then I'd go

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through another group.

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depressive episode and I would write a draft of a book, maybe edit it some.

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I tried to, you know, pitch one book and as soon as the rejection started rolling in I

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just couldn't, I couldn't handle it.

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I couldn't handle the stress of that.

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And finally in 2010, I think that's right, I was, I think I was 49, I saw a social media

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post

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from a friend that said, call me crazy, but this running is getting to be fun.

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And I thought that was possibly the most ridiculous thing I'd ever heard.

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The words run and fun did not belong in the same sentence in my mind at all.

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And mind you, I had therapy, I'd been in group therapy, like I said, I'd been

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hospitalized, I had medication.

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I also learned to meditate when my husband, when I met my husband.

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That's kind of a funny story.

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I'll share it quick.

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But we were barely just started dating and he was at my house for dinner and after dinner

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he said, hey, do you want to sit?

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And I said, do you want to what?

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I was like, I didn't know what you were talking about.

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And what he meant was, do you want to meditate?

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And so my very first meditation instructions were from this guy I had just been on like

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three dates with.

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And he said,

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I'm going to set the microwave timer for five minutes.

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Do your best to notice your breath and try not to fidget.

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And that was it.

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That was the whole thing.

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And I was like, what?

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And so all this time I had been meditating.

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We had gone to retreats and it really helped.

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It really, really, really did help.

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But I still had these horrible bouts of depression, crippling, imposter syndrome, anxiety,

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panic attacks, especially around bridges.

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And

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So my friend, my high school friend was about the same age, about the same size, as

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equally not athletic as me.

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And I watched her and she seemed to be having fun.

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And so after a few months passed, I checked it out and I leashed up the little dog, not

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little, but our dog, Morgan, and went down into this hidden ravine and jogged for 60

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seconds.

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That's what the training plan that she was using said it said 60 seconds of jogging and I

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swear if it had said a minute or if it said Running I wouldn't have done it I but

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something about 60 seconds of jogging sounded doable and then from there You know

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different things happen, which I'm not gonna go into the whole thing But that's my first

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book and I eventually was able to get that first book published and it it's essentially a

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story of me taking up running at middle-age

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and how it helped my mental health and also kind of the accomplishment of running at that

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age at my size.

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I was a bit larger than I am now.

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And, you know, just that sense of accomplishment.

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And yeah, so that book is called Depression Hates a Moving Target, which is the, it's

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true.

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I had been saying that phrase for years before the publisher wanted a title.

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That was a

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That was the one, that was it.

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So yeah, and then from there, you know, I wish I could say, then it's all, you know,

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wonderful and magical and unicorns and rainbows.

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But I had to then figure out the next book and then the next book.

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And luckily I had had a really good supportive editor, Brenda Knight, who's now, all my

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books are now with, my first three, are with a company called Books That Save Lives, which

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I love that imprint, that's their imprint.

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And...

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And that's how it felt working with her was it just felt like she was, you know, really

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kind of pushing me along, helping me stretch.

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But the biggest thing about running that has helped was it did things that therapy,

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medication, meditation, writing as a practice, the other things didn't do.

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It like rounded out the, I call it a trifecta of mind, you know, body and spirit.

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It's like the meditation keeps me in the moment.

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and helps me manage the anxiety that way.

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Writing as a practice is another form of meditation.

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And then all the medical stuff, I have that too, but I didn't have a movement form.

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So I wasn't really tending to my body in the way that I could.

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And I swear that if I hadn't been running and...

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done some of the long distance stuff that I did that I wouldn't have the stamina to have

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finished that first book because I had tried.

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had, I don't know how many first drafts of books I've got and I could never get it

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finished, polished, have the focus and concentration, the stamina to get it published.

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And yeah, and that's what it took.

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And so now I, you know, I'm still writing books and I'm working on my fifth book,

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hopefully come out next year.

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We'll see.

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ah But they all have, they're different.

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The first book is a pure memoir with some, it has a little kind of a how-to at the end.

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The second book is a writing journal, so it's blank pages with author quotes.

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The third book, Make Every Movement Meditation, is a how-to about how to meditate while

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you're moving.

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And then the fourth book is also meditation called A Daily Dose of Now, and it's about

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mindfulness practice.

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It's like a daily reader, so every day you have a little.

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daily practice, do this, just real tiny little, you know, pinprick of do this to try to

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help you incorporate mindfulness in your day.

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But they all have, they're all memoir, almost all the examples, maybe not all of them, but

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most of the examples are me doing something in my life to show you how I do this thing.

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And they all have the mental health component.

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They're all about, you know, how I use these tools to manage.

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the symptoms of mental illness, which I have.

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have, you know, chronic depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, and bipolar disorder,

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probably a few other things thrown in there that aren't diagnosed either, and that's okay,

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I don't care.

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know, the labels don't mean anything, and they mean something to me because they help the

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professionals know what to do, but there's so much overlap and so much, you know, fluidity

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that I'm not totally sure.

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So I'm going to breathe and let Travis talk now.

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uh Thank you.

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like you you don't want to be known by your labels though Like you said, it's good thing

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for the doctors to know how to help you out and assist you But like when it comes back to

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it because I suffer from bad Depression I've had some suicidal ideation I've called a

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hotline, but I didn't quite end up going to a psych ward or anything but

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I mean, I was to the point where I had plans on what I was going to do, how I was going to

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do it.

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There was never a when.

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I've had problems with like dissociating and completely not remembering what I'm doing in

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that moment.

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When I get that way, I'll wander off or I'll, you know, go fall asleep in a car or

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something like something just weird that I wouldn't normally do.

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But, and then anxiety like

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It's it's so it's either like I'm really dealing with this super anxious mind or this dark

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deep depressed state and it's like and speaking of that I do have a question when you're

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which one like when you're say you know you're feeling anxious or depressed which one do

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you feel is easier for you to come out of is there

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that's a good question.

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You know, because I meditate, I think the anxiety is easier for me to come out of because

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I can bring my mind back to the moment and realize that most of what I'm anxious about is

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not currently happening.

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And so I can, have that, I've trained my mind.

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I mean, it's really a skill, like almost like a muscle.

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I've trained my mind and I can pretty much, you know, bring back to whatever the

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sensations are right here.

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Right now, I'm looking at Travis.

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I'm seeing his face on the screen.

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My behind is in a chair.

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I'm in this room.

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know, very concrete details that I can bring my mind back to.

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Physical sensations, my breath.

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Sometimes my breath makes me anxious though, so I'm better off with like maybe the feeling

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of my hands or my body in the chair, my feet on the floor, something like that.

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And

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um And that's easier with the depression.

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Now I'm better because I realized that by moving, I can create energy.

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It sounds backwards because at the moment it's happening or when it's happening, I often

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feel as if I have lead in my arms and legs, like somebody has just filled my limbs with

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lead.

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and I can't move them or I'm walking through pudding.

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That's kind of like a viscous substance of some type that it's pushing against me.

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But I have enough experience with it now that after a while I realize you just need to

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walk.

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You just need to get up.

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If you're in bed, just get up and walk around the living room once or twice.

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Just that.

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And that it just, it's just this little thing, but that for some reason is harder for me

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to remember than when I'm having the anxiety.

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Just get in the moment, just get in the moment.

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That one, for some reason, I think it's because I've meditated a lot longer than I've, you

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know, moved in an intentional way.

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But yeah, those are the, those are kind of the fixes I do.

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But yeah, I would say the anxiety is a little bit easier.

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I also, I hate, I mean, I'm going to talk about this because it's true.

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I am through menopause now.

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And I truly believe women, paramenopause, and when you're going through the paramenopause

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and menopause, it was like my anxiety went on steroids.

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It was just, it ratcheted up so high and the medical provider I was seeing at the time

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really did not want me to be on, want anybody really to be on hormone replacement.

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And now there's new research that that's not, it's not necessarily as tied to all the bad

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things they used to think.

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And so I really think a tiny dose of some kind of hormone replacement therapy might have

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really helped because I just, it was just awful for years.

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And now it just, it's like it, didn't go away, but it's so much better and nothing else

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changed really.

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I mean, I had the meditation.

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I wasn't moving yet then, but I went through that before and that was all before then.

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so I just want to say, you know,

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Make sure you're asking your doctor, I'm not sure about the testosterone thing with men.

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I don't know anything about that.

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I just know the women's hormones, but women, please ask twice about that.

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If you're in perimenopause or the early phases of menopause and you're having anxiety,

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like jump out of your skin anxiety kind of thing.

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That's what I had.

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couldn't, it's just, driving was just horrible.

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And...

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uh

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I think, I mean, I did a lot of things to make it easier.

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I did a lot of things to desensitize myself.

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And so I was able to drive.

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It was mainly on freeways and over bridges.

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But, you know, I got through it.

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But I think that if I'd had other kinds of medication support, it might've been easier.

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So I just wish I had had, I just wish I had pushed back a little more.

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or that it had been 10 years later.

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Because now they realize, wait a minute, those studies, they're looking at them again and

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they're not quite as, know, so yeah.

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And you did bring up an important point because I feel like the anxiety in women when

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they're going through that stuff, it's not talked about enough.

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it's...

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No, it's, oh yeah, it's just, it's like it's shamed or something.

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I don't know.

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There's a whole thing.

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It's just, they want us to tough it out and that just makes me crazy.

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But yeah, yeah, it's not talked about.

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So let's talk about it.

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Let's talk about it, ladies.

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I will definitely talk to you about it.

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And like going back to what you said previously, like the anxiety, it's the same for me.

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Anxiety.

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I've trained myself because my, you know, you go to therapy and my therapist basically

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taught me how to rewire my brain and, you know, make old habits disappear.

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But one of the things that he really taught me was like, you know, your, your anxiety is

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just thoughts.

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It's just like bad thoughts.

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And he's like, you need to pretend that there's a stream right next to you.

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you know, it's floating by, it's going pretty quick.

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And get those thoughts and just tear them out of your head and throw them away, watch them

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float down the river.

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so since I've been able to, I mean, it took me bit of time to learn how to, you know,

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subconsciously, like...

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sit and think about like because sometimes like I'd be doing something I'd be really

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anxious and I'd have to stop and think like stop what I was doing okay I'm feeling anxious

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what do I do now I could do without like anybody noticing before my wife would be like

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okay what are you doing why are you like standing why are you standing in the middle of

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the room like you're putting the kids to bed

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And so now my anxiety is really easy, but once I get one of those deep dark ruts, like

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depression, I went through like a month episode where I just could not do it.

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And finally, I'm, that was just recently.

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So I'm finally, think towards the end of that, it's been about two months, but.

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And my therapist did help with a few things, but I'm just glad that I find somebody else

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that, you know, they say anxiety is that easy one to push.

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But it's all, I feel like with mental health in general, it's all like a learning curve.

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Oh, completely.

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And I feel so bad for people who don't know that, who think that they're doing something

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wrong because they can't fix it, or they're doing something, you know, because they feel

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the way they do that they're doing something wrong.

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And no, it's, you have a disease and it's, you know, that's the symptom.

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These are the symptoms of your disease.

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If you had the flu or a fever, you know, you wouldn't expect yourself to be able to dance

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on the table.

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But somehow with depression and anxiety, think, or any mental health, you know,

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dissociation, I have, I don't have dissociation so much, but I have auditory

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hallucinations sometimes where I hear music that isn't there.

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And also olfactory ones where I'll smell things that aren't there.

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And yeah, that's, those are the symptoms of my disease, but I coach a few people, I'm not

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a therapist, but I coach a few people.

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And that's what we talk about is just trying to normalize this so that we don't

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add this extra burden to ourselves by shaming ourselves for having this stuff.

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Because we didn't do anything wrong to get it, so we don't need that extra layer on top of

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it.

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So we work with that first, you know, trying to kind of normalize what's actually

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happening so that then we can access the tools because so much of what gets in the road is

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the way we think about ourselves or the way we think about

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know, mental illness or these, whatever you want to call it, these things we live with

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that, you know, challenge us.

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very, very well said.

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So, and I want to go kind of move towards your uh bipolar diagnosis.

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Did you, before you had that diagnosis, did you, what were some of the biggest

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misconceptions you had about bipolar, being bipolar?

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yeah, I think I was only familiar with bipolar one, with the mania where you are up three

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or four days or weeks or whatever, and you get so much done and you're so productive and

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you're high and you're happy.

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And so that was sort of a stereotype that I had about it.

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And my bipolar two primarily manifests as depression.

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So that's mostly what we see.

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And so it...

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it took my psychiatrist a long time to realize that, you know, that it wasn't just the

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depression.

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And we started talking about, there's this one episode where I, back when I was practicing

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law, I flew to Chicago and maxed out my credit cards buying lawyer-y clothes.

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And then I flew home and realized that I wasn't going to be able to pay for that.

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And so I flew back and returned them.

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and all in a period of very short period of time.

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And when, I don't know how that came up and it had been years before, I mean that would

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have been maybe, maybe 10 years before I was having this conversation with my psychiatrist

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and I'm not sure how that came up, but she stopped and she went, wait a minute, I could

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sort of see the wheels going in her head, she was, hold on just a minute and

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And I'd had trouble.

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had, wasn't, I don't think they would call it treatment resistant depression, but I would,

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the meds would stop working very quickly.

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And so I had been on a ton of different meds.

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At one point I was on six different meds.

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That was the other thing I wanted to say about running is I was able to reduce, I'm still

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on medication, but I was able to reduce, not even intentionally.

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I just ended up having the side effects of having, of being on too many meds.

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And they realized, my gosh, the running is, you know, giving her the,

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yeah.

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or whatever she needs.

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And so we're going to crank this down.

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but I was on all these meds and, and they would work and, but just not quite.

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And finally, once she realized that I was bipolar too, she put me on a mood stabilizer in

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addition to, I think it was on antidepressant too.

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It doesn't really matter.

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You know, let this, I let the psychiatrist figure that out.

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I'm not going to tell you what she takes, but she put me on other, she changed my med

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routine and that really helped.

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Because I think what was happening was I was still depressed, but then I would get these

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mixed states where you're depressed, but you have energy.

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And that is very dangerous when you're really depressed, but you actually have energy.

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And that's when I would get the anxiety and suicidal ideation and all of that.

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So yeah, was just that it was kind of a fluke in a way.

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she...

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She sort of apologized, but she said, we just never talked about anything that sounded

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like this.

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And I think when I had my hypomania, I actually looked kind of normal because I had enough

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energy to do some stuff and I would bathe and I would have all the things that you do

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something when you're in a depressive episode.

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I think that was...

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That was just a challenge for her.

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she's, adore her.

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She's a great psychiatrist and she's, you know, I've been her patient for many, many

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years.

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But once she figured that out, it, I think I'd only been seeing her about a year before we

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really figured that out.

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And then that really changed things.

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And then when I took up running, that changed things again.

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So those were probably the two big, like the sort of three big times in my medication and

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therapy journey.

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And the first was when I was diagnosed originally.

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when I actually went on meds the first time.

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And then the second time was when she figured I was, it was different psychiatrists

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figured out I was a bipolar.

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And then once I, was probably a couple of years after I started running, I just started

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having all these crazy side effects.

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And she said, these are the side effects of somebody who's on too much meds.

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Let's drop you off things.

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Oops, sorry about that.

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Drop you off things and see what happens.

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And so she added back a little tiny bit of one med.

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So far so good.

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That's really cool though that you were able to see decrease in medication because you

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were running.

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Yeah, it was, it's yeah.

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And I had a, I had a health issue a couple of years ago and I had to stop running for a

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little while.

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And I was really scared because I was really afraid that all the, you know, the depression

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would come back, that I have to go back on all the meds.

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But I didn't, I, you know, I was able to keep doing other kinds of movement enough to get

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a benefit.

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enough, think that it just didn't, I just didn't have the symptoms.

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So we didn't have to adjust anything.

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were, I started seeing her a lot more often when that was happening because she was really

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afraid I was going to kind of fall off a cliff because I could, you know, cause that's the

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only thing they could explain it.

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So yeah.

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And I feel like to get a diagnosis with like, I'm not even talking just mental health, but

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I think in just physical health and mental health in general, it seems to a lot of times,

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unless it's like, you know, like straight up like a problem with your kidneys.

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Like there's so many factors that play a role and so many things that overlap that it can

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be very difficult.

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Yeah, and it's, mean, that's why they go to school all those years and why the, you know,

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the, the, I don't know if you call it nephrologist, but like the doctors that's that it's

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not just the doctors that do that, the tests, but the doctors that analyze what all those

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tests mean.

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I mean, I can, I can, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty smart.

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I mean, I got to have like three degrees, you know, I'm not exactly, but

23:59

I get the test results on my chart before the doctor sees them and I'm Googling them and

23:59

I'm reading them I'm thinking, my God, I'm dying.

24:08

my God, this test result means I've got this thing and then that doctor eats my...

24:12

And well, actually, Nita, the test result means you don't have the thing.

24:16

Like, how does that even...

24:17

I mean, I'm just like, how did I get it backwards?

24:20

But I have...

24:23

no, it's terrible.

24:24

Yeah, that's what...

24:25

I have this one friend that I text with a lot.

24:28

We both have had a number of health issues and we're always like, we always say to other,

24:28

Nita, Dr.

24:34

Google is not your friend.

24:35

Dr.

24:35

Google is not your friend.

24:37

Oh dear.

24:40

I've had neurological issues since in my early 20s.

24:45

I have a seizure disorder and uh I remember when like all these symptoms first started

24:45

happening and I started having seizures and googling it's like, it's got to be brain

24:55

tumor.

24:55

It's got to be this.

24:57

And it's like, but then when it comes to it, I always have doctors telling me, like, you

24:57

know what?

25:04

you're at a point where you're probably better off not being diagnosed with anything.

25:09

Because if you're diagnosed with something, it's not necessarily going to be good.

25:12

Yeah, yeah, yep.

25:14

yeah, that's.

25:15

I like how you put it, Dr.

25:16

Google.

25:18

Oh yeah, it's bad, it's bad.

25:20

And I can't help myself.

25:21

I mean, I know better.

25:22

Oh my gosh, I know better.

25:23

I've been burned so many times and yet, yeah.

25:27

Yeah.

25:27

Gratefully, again, I have an amazing doctor.

25:31

He happens to be a runner too, which is wonderful.

25:34

But he understands that I have medical anxiety in addition to, know, garden variety

25:34

anxiety.

25:41

And so he tries to get...

25:44

my test results reviewed, you when he knows that he's ordered some kind of blood test or

25:44

something, he tries to get on it right away so that he keeps me out of the medical exit,

25:53

you know, otherwise he's going to get a couple too many messages from me.

25:57

So I read the test.

26:00

Oh, what is it?

26:01

know, and I mean, I still have that and I can bring myself back in the present and I still

26:01

have that.

26:05

So yeah, it's a thing.

26:07

But I think, you know, I'm, I'm really fortunate because

26:12

I've had some really crappy, I mean, I had one psychiatrist that was just horrible and I,

26:12

um, gratefully found this other one because, you know, it's not always easy to find ones

26:23

that are on your plan or that, you know, oh my gosh.

26:26

Um, I don't want to get started on the healthcare system.

26:29

Don't even start me.

26:30

Um, but, um, um, but had to have a primary care physician who understands who doesn't, you

26:30

know, doesn't write hypochondria and read letters on the top of your chart or something

26:41

like that.

26:42

But who gets it?

26:43

Who knows that I do have that and I'm always going to jump to the most horrible ridiculous

26:43

conclusion.

26:49

And you know, there may come a day when it is that.

26:51

It could be that someday.

26:53

But right now it's not.

26:54

You know, I'm fortunate.

26:57

you know your body better than anybody, so I do feel like you have to doctor shop to find

26:57

that person who's right for you.

27:07

Well, and who meets your, who can see your personality too, because some people don't,

27:07

some people like doctors who are just the facts.

27:16

You know, they just want the specific information.

27:19

I need one who's a little bit chatty, who's in fact, had, I had an amazing cardiologist.

27:24

He's, he's wonderful.

27:26

Dr.

27:26

Saab gear for the other health issue I had, he started the walk with a doc program, which

27:26

is an international program where every Saturday they have different.

27:35

chapters around the world of you go for a walk with a doctor and they teach you different

27:35

things.

27:41

And he started that program, he's amazing.

27:43

And he's a very one sentence kind of guy.

27:47

And I would go in, I knew he was completely right and I'd leave completely freaked out.

27:51

And so I had a very lovely conversation with him and I got referred to a woman who's just

27:51

a little more chatty and that's what I needed.

28:00

I tell people to go to him all the time.

28:02

because he's really, really good.

28:04

he was just his personality and mine just didn't match because of my medical anxiety.

28:10

That's not anything.

28:11

He's a great guy.

28:12

I'm getting started this fantastic program.

28:15

I published in this at his name.

28:16

But I wanted to say about the walk with a doc and it's obvious that it's him.

28:19

And he writes the funniest emails.

28:21

He's hysterical in writing.

28:22

yeah, so I ended up with a different cardiologist who's very

28:27

renowned colleague of his and Dr.

28:29

Albers and she's wonderful.

28:31

it was tough choice because I knew how good he was and I knew he was completely right

28:31

about what he was saying, but it was like I couldn't hear it because of my issues.

28:40

It wasn't about him at all.

28:42

And so I think maybe 10 years ago I wouldn't have done that.

28:46

I'd probably still be his patient, which probably would be just fine.

28:48

I might be fine by now.

28:50

But at that time I was having this recurring issue

28:54

And I was so anxious about it that I just had to find someone else.

28:58

And that's hard to do because I live in the 14th largest metropolitan area in United

28:58

States.

29:05

So there's more doctors here than there are in other places.

29:08

Maybe where you're at, you're in Utah.

29:10

So maybe where you're at, I don't know.

29:12

But I was fortunate to be able to find somebody else and also brave enough to ask because

29:12

not all, like Dr.

29:18

Sabir was great.

29:19

He was absolutely great.

29:21

He's like, completely understand.

29:22

Let's help you find somebody else.

29:23

And not every doctor would be like that.

29:25

Like the psychiatrist that I talked about, I won't say his name, but that may have even

29:25

forgotten it by now.

29:30

He was just a gas that I did not trust him and didn't, you know, wanted to find somebody

29:30

else.

29:35

He just was like, whatever, you know?

29:37

And yeah, so it just really depends on the doctor.

29:42

Yeah, for sure.

29:43

But I'm the same way.

29:44

I need it spelled out for me because otherwise, like, there's things that I don't

29:44

understand, I don't get, and I'm not always one to necessarily ask questions.

29:54

Sometimes I'll just let it go, let it slide.

29:56

But then I'll think later, I'll go, I should have asked this, but whatever, then I never

29:56

follow up.

30:02

But like I had to be better at that.

30:05

But I found a doctor now that like, it's like everything's laid out.

30:08

This is what's working.

30:10

This is...

30:11

not working like you need to do this and more of the chatty type as well.

30:15

Yeah, yeah, don't need them to, we don't need to talk about what they had for lunch, but I

30:15

need just a little more about, know, well, this could happen, that could happen.

30:24

So yeah, that's great.

30:26

It's good right now.

30:27

I just am so grateful because I, definitely feel my privilege.

30:31

I mean, I know people who have just struggled to get any kind of care at all because of

30:31

financial reasons, because of their, you know, employer has crappy insurance or they don't

30:40

have insurance at all.

30:41

you know, um,

30:43

So I just feel so fortunate and I just want to say that I acknowledge all of that and you

30:43

know, lucky lucky like a lady.

30:51

And it's like, I hear people with different health coverage and like, well, I can't do

30:51

that type of, you know, appointment because I can't afford it because my healthcare

31:02

doesn't cover it.

31:04

I was like, that's, too bad.

31:05

Cause

31:06

difference.

31:07

Yeah, they're talking.

31:07

Sometimes they're talking the difference between paying their rent and paying their

31:07

doctor.

31:11

that's like, wow, whoa, I have not.

31:14

There was a day when I might have been in that situation for a long time ago, but

31:14

currently I'm not.

31:18

And, you know, I do what I can to help others because I know that I'm.

31:27

want to go back to talking about kind of exercising and that type of stuff.

31:32

So somebody that's struggling with, let's say they're in a deep dark depression and

31:32

they're struggling with starting to exercise, what advice would you give them?

31:45

Just go for a walk.

31:47

Walking is the most underrated, most valuable thing you can do.

31:53

And if it means walking up and down your hallway, walking around your living room, just

31:53

anything.

32:00

If you can get outside and get some fresh air, that's even better.

32:02

If you can find other people to walk with, that's even better because there's a, with the

32:02

thing that with me,

32:12

I think I didn't understand how much the kind of fellowship aspect of it would change my

32:12

life too when I ended up joining a group, ended up joining a running group.

32:25

But it could be, I mean, there are walking groups, are, what did I see?

32:30

There's, you know, well, there's hiking groups, there's just all kinds of groups.

32:32

If you go to meet up, there's groups everywhere, depending where you're at.

32:36

And like I said, the Walk with a Doc program, that's international.

32:39

Look for that, Walk with a Doc.

32:41

and on this DOC, like a walk with a doctor, but walk with a doc.

32:45

But yeah, just some basic gentle stretching.

32:48

it's like, just have to get, I say just, because I shouldn't say that word because this is

32:48

not easy.

32:54

This is not, it took me, it took me probably three months to actually even open the

32:54

training plan that my friend was using.

33:03

And then it took me,

33:05

maybe six weeks to actually go out and try the first session.

33:09

I mean it was it was not just anything so don't so please don't take it that the wrong

33:09

way.

33:14

But finding a movement that you can do even if it's a little challenging and that you

33:14

enjoy too because I had tried the you know robux classes I had tried yoga I somehow always

33:29

injure myself when I do yoga I think I

33:32

I'm too competitive and I try to, you know, do what the teacher's doing and I break

33:32

myself.

33:37

But, you know, finding something that you enjoy and for me, I didn't realize that I needed

33:37

to be doing it with other people sometimes too.

33:48

And now when we meet, my running group meets once a week on, well they meet a couple of

33:48

times, but I usually go on Saturdays.

33:57

It's the highlight of my week or it's one of the maybe not the highlight, but it's one of

33:57

the best times of my week.

34:02

You know, we go and we run and we do run walk.

34:05

So we're not running the whole time.

34:06

And then we go to breakfast, you know, and I will tell you that during 2020, my husband

34:06

had a heart attack.

34:12

So we're in the middle of pandemic.

34:14

He has a heart attack and then he open heart surgery.

34:17

He comes off that on a feeding tube.

34:19

He didn't do well on the ventilator and m

34:22

I was there, you know, taking care of him on the feeding tube during the pandemic.

34:26

There were professionals coming in and out, but otherwise we couldn't have anybody in the

34:26

house.

34:30

And he, you know, we had to be uber careful about him with germs.

34:34

We'd seen plenty of people on ventilators.

34:36

No, thank you.

34:36

And I got a text one Saturday morning and I look out, it said, look at your window, look

34:36

at your front window.

34:44

And I think there were six or maybe eight members of my running group.

34:49

they had made signs like race signs, like you'd be at a marathon and they were standing

34:49

six feet apart in our front yard and they were all signs cheering my husband on.

35:01

You you can do this, heel at, it was just like, I just, and I never saw that coming.

35:07

Never saw that.

35:07

I I signed up because I wanted to run a race.

35:10

I didn't sign up for best friends and that's what I got.

35:14

So when people start,

35:15

Yeah.

35:16

So when people start, just know that you might need more than you think.

35:22

I don't know if I'm making it, because I know when you're really depressed, it's so

35:22

overwhelming.

35:26

Like, oh yeah, need a surer.

35:28

I get that.

35:29

I get that.

35:30

There have been days not that long ago where I really wanted to go for a run, knew I would

35:30

feel better, but I was still in my pajamas and it was probably three in the afternoon.

35:43

And so I started...

35:46

running around my house up and down the hallway, just jogging, know, jogging in my

35:46

pajamas.

35:51

And pretty soon it was too hot to keep running in my pajamas.

35:54

And so next thing I knew I was in running clothes.

35:56

Well, hell, if I'm in running clothes, I might as well go outside.

35:59

so before I knew I'd go for a run, but I started in my pajamas.

36:03

So that's, that's the kind of thing where, because I know this works, I, I know that it's,

36:03

I have to get moving.

36:12

But the mental thing of, my God, I feel like there's lead in my veins.

36:17

I have to push against that.

36:19

And that's the hardest thing.

36:20

But Nita, I just want to lay down.

36:22

I understand.

36:22

So do I.

36:25

You have to really fight those urges to go back to sleep or lay back down.

36:37

It's a struggle.

36:39

Yeah, and I think for me though, it's chunking it down into like these tiny bite-sized

36:39

pieces.

36:46

So if I'm in bed and I'm having trouble getting out of bed, the first thing to do is not

36:46

get up and move, which is what I just said.

36:54

The first thing to do is throw off the covers.

36:58

Just roll over and throw off the covers and lay there for a minute.

37:02

And then when you kind of get through that, then sit up on the edge of the bed.

37:08

and just sit there for a minute, you know?

37:13

And then after a few minutes, stand up.

37:16

I mean, really, just, that's how I had to do it.

37:19

Just chunk it down into these tiny little pieces.

37:22

Because if somebody, you know, if this lady I didn't know who writes books and seems to

37:22

have a magical life told me, well, you should go for a run, I would have, you know,

37:31

reached through the screen and strangled her.

37:33

So.

37:34

I'm not saying that I'm saying do exactly what you can.

37:38

Sometimes that's just throw off the damn cover.

37:41

Sorry, throw off the covers.

37:43

Throw off the covers and just lay there and go, okay, well, I'm uncovered now.

37:48

And then after a while you go, well, I might as well sit up.

37:51

At that's what my, it's like, okay, I'm sitting up.

37:54

might as well stand up.

37:55

It's like, okay, I'm standing up.

37:57

I might as well walk somewhere.

37:59

You know, just like it, but it has to be these tiny bites because

38:03

when I'm depressed my mind is so easily overwhelmed it's just everything is too much

38:03

everything breathing is too much and so yeah that's what I mean when I say go walk around

38:15

your living room I mean throw off the covers that's what I mean

38:18

One of the things that I find helps me just like in the morning I used to be I most of

38:18

time I work from home and I used to you know just keep my blinds down all day not let the

38:33

sunlight in and that just makes it worse so now like there's days I still get bad

38:33

migraines so if I have a migraine I'm like okay I don't want to let the light in but

38:43

Most days now, like, first thing I do is go and open the blinds.

38:48

Just to get some natural light.

38:51

And that's...

38:52

my bed every day too, which is, never, people used to talk about that and I think, that's

38:52

so stupid.

38:57

Why you just gotta get back in it, you know?

39:00

But there's something about that act of making my bed.

39:03

feels like self care.

39:04

It feels like, you know, I'm, we get in bed, it's gonna be, there'll be like a nice bed to

39:04

get into cause it's all made up.

39:12

And I don't even, I'm not talking tucking everything in.

39:14

I'm talking just pull the covers up and smooth them out.

39:17

You know, just the, like the.

39:18

the least amount of stuff I can do.

39:22

Like you said, it's the little things.

39:24

Yeah, it's these little, and that's all I can do when I'm in a depression.

39:27

That's all I got.

39:28

That's all the energy I've got.

39:31

So have another question here for you.

39:33

How can mindfulness and meditation look different for people who struggle with sitting

39:33

still or find traditional meditation overwhelming?

39:44

So that's part of why I wrote the book.

39:46

It's called Make Every Move of Meditation because you don't actually have to sit still to

39:46

meditate.

39:53

Sitting is a posture and you can meditate in literally any posture, including moving.

39:59

It's sometimes harder to develop concentration if you're not sitting, but you can do it.

40:06

And so at retreats, they have periods of slow walking or something that's fast walking

40:06

where you're meditating.

40:14

And so what you do, the steps are actually the same.

40:17

You're just choosing a different posture.

40:19

So you pick a period of time or when I'm running, I pick a distance usually maybe.

40:26

And it can be from this driveway to the next driveway or from this tree to that tree or a

40:26

period of time.

40:32

And the reason I do that is because then my mind thinks, oh, we'll be done soon.

40:38

I don't have to do this forever because my mind is still, I've been meditating 30 years,

40:38

my mind is still like, oh my God, we have to do this for an hour, no way.

40:45

So you pick the time or the interval and then you choose an object of meditation.

40:51

And that can be any of your senses.

40:54

You can also use your thoughts, but that's a little tricky.

40:56

So that's like PhD level, don't do that.

40:58

So it can be...

41:00

Sometimes when I'm running, I use the color green because it's so green here most of the

41:00

year.

41:04

In the winter, I'll use like gray or white.

41:07

And just notice anytime I see the color green.

41:10

So you can go for a walk or you can walk slowly or just any kind of you can jog, whatever.

41:16

But pick a color or pick a shape even.

41:20

Everything's circular.

41:21

Say anything circular.

41:22

I say anything circular.

41:23

And then your mind will wander.

41:25

And again, let me just back up about the object of meditation.

41:29

You can use, um in the spring, I'll use the lilacs, scent of lilacs.

41:33

We will have a lot of lilacs scent and I'll notice, yes, there's lilacs present.

41:37

No, there's no lilacs.

41:38

Yes, lilacs, and that's it.

41:39

You can use taste, like eating meditation.

41:41

You can use the texture and taste of food.

41:44

You can use sound.

41:46

Sometimes I'll do hearing meditation where I'll listen to bird songs, especially if we run

41:46

early in the morning.

41:50

Sometimes there's a lot of bird song.

41:53

You can also use touch, and that's why the breath is actually a touch sensation.

41:58

so those are kind of the five, you can use any five senses.

42:01

you pick one, you just choose one.

42:02

Doesn't matter which one it is, you just pick one.

42:05

And then you start yourself moving and you do your best to keep.

42:10

your mind on whatever you've chosen.

42:12

So let's say I've chosen the color green.

42:13

I'm going to go for three driveways color green.

42:17

I get halfway to the first driveway and I'm already thinking about what we're going to

42:17

have for breakfast after the run or you know what I am supposed to be writing tomorrow or

42:27

the podcast I'm going to be on with Travis next week or whatever and then I go oh wait so

42:27

that the fourth thing is remembering wait I'm supposed to be meditating and then

42:37

The fifth thing, which is really important, is I very gently, without reproach, bring my

42:37

mind back to whatever it is I've chosen, which the color green.

42:47

there's some green, okay.

42:48

And I go back to that.

42:49

And then I get another half a driveway and I'm thinking about something else and I go,

42:49

wait a minute.

42:53

And that's what it is.

42:55

Meditation is basically 90 % forgetting that you're meditating and then remembering, yeah,

42:55

and then very gently bringing your mind back.

43:04

And then you just do that until the interval or period is done and you're done.

43:08

And if you have questions, you find a teacher or someone, coach like me to answer your

43:08

questions.

43:14

But that's really it.

43:15

You just choose something, choose a time, get moving, forget you're meditating, remember

43:15

you're meditating and go, wait a minute, here we go.

43:25

And then you just do that over and over until the time's up.

43:28

And then eventually what'll happen is you'll develop

43:32

the muscle of focus and you realize the periods that you're forgetting are shorter and

43:32

shorter and the periods of time where you're actually either seeing or hearing or smelling

43:43

or tasting or touching, the thing become longer and longer.

43:46

But it's not by force.

43:48

It's like a natural process.

43:51

It's not like, I mean, it's funny because they, in Zen, you know, was like, the rings are

43:51

kind of thing, but they're not making it either.

43:59

You just very gently bring it back.

44:02

that's the process.

44:03

So I hope that I hope that made sense.

44:05

But that's I wrote a whole book about it.

44:07

That's, that's really cool because I've, I've always thought as meditation is something

44:07

that you somewhat have to sit still for and you know, that's, that's really cool.

44:17

That like gave me a totally complete, like, like new understanding of it.

44:22

Cause it's like, so, so thank you.

44:25

Yeah.

44:25

I learned something.

44:29

So you've done some coaching work as well.

44:34

Obviously without breaking any HIPAA laws, you share a success story of coaching someone

44:34

that really moved you?

44:42

Oh, wow.

44:44

I think the biggest one is a person who was really, really...

44:50

They had a very important to them story to tell and they were so stuck, they just couldn't

44:50

get to the page.

45:00

And we were able to get them to the page and...

45:06

they ended up self publishing the book, but they actually got their story out there into

45:06

the world.

45:12

And it was just, you know, the book isn't going to make some huge splash or anything, but

45:12

it was such an important story.

45:20

I won't tell because you know, don't want to give away, but especially to them, it was so

45:20

powerful that I saw that it's not about the book.

45:31

It's about the transformation of the person when they do something.

45:36

that has terrified them when they overcome their fear and accomplish this thing that they

45:36

thought was impossible.

45:43

And that was just, because I've helped a lot of people write stuff.

45:47

mean, that's kind of, you know, I do a lot of different kind of coaching, but that's the

45:47

one that people tend to come back for.

45:53

But this person was just so frozen that frankly, I wasn't sure we were going to make it.

45:57

It's like, I don't know, you know, we just do our best.

46:00

And so that I think is probably the most powerful thing.

46:03

Yeah.

46:03

really cool.

46:04

it's like those things like, they're the types of things that keep you going.

46:09

Yeah, they really do.

46:11

It's just seeing people grow even in the tiniest ways.

46:15

I've had people who've had difficult health diagnoses.

46:19

I've had people who wanted to, you know, run crazy races that they weren't sure they could

46:19

do.

46:23

I've had different types of leaders like executive people who essentially weren't sure if

46:23

they could stay in their career and

46:32

Some of chose not to and some figured out how to do it.

46:35

you know, cause I've been coaching a long time.

46:36

I don't do a lot of, I never have a lot of clients at the same time cause I can't do it.

46:41

I still have my own mental health challenges and I'm one of my own books.

46:44

So I only have maybe three or four clients at a time.

46:47

yeah, it's so when they, when people, when it clicks, man, it's just, it makes me high.

46:57

Yeah.

46:58

really cool.

46:59

So if you've honestly answered the majority of my questions without even me asking them,

46:59

it's like you're reading my mind or something.

47:11

Well, I apparently want to talk about what you want to hear, so that's good.

47:15

We knew it would be a good match.

47:17

When I first contacted you and I said, you know, let's talk about possibly doing this, I

47:17

just thought this is going to be a good match because I just feel like we just have the

47:28

same audience and that makes it beautiful.

47:33

Yeah.

47:34

Yeah, absolutely.

47:35

few more things here.

47:36

If someone listening today is struggling to find hope, what would you want them to hear

47:36

from you?

47:44

the thing I always say is stay because it will change.

47:49

It will get different.

47:50

In the next second, it will be different.

47:52

And that's what we tend to think it's frozen and that I'm going to feel this bad forever.

47:57

But it's actually changing right now.

48:00

so, you know, I just urge people to stay because it changes.

48:06

It just changes.

48:07

And if we can, you kind of can see that in hindsight, it's hard to see it when you're in

48:07

the moment.

48:13

But, and then, you know, people always say, reach out for help.

48:16

Man, when you're so depressed, sometimes it's really tough, but just hang on to whatever

48:16

you are right now.

48:23

You know, hang on here right now.

48:24

And it will change.

48:25

It absolutely will change.

48:27

That's the only constant is change.

48:29

Things just do not ever stay the same.

48:32

So that's what I always say is just please stay.

48:34

We need you.

48:36

First off, you may not think we need you, but we do.

48:38

And it's going to change.

48:40

It's going to get different, I promise.

48:43

And it's like, I always go by this thing, if I can just have that little mustard seed of

48:43

faith or hope, that's all I need to hold on to.

48:56

Yeah, and so that's the thing when you're in a not crisis place, figure out the mustard

48:56

seed then, you know, because you need it, you're going to need it when, you know, the

49:11

crap, or just the fertilizer hits the ventilator again, you're going to need it then.

49:18

So that's one of the tools I work with.

49:20

people sometimes is trying to find something that they can hold on to when it gets bad

49:20

again.

49:25

And it's hard because people don't want to think that it might get bad again.

49:28

It won't be the same, but it's, you're going to have ups and downs.

49:32

We just do.

49:33

It's not linear.

49:34

You may have progress, but it's like this.

49:36

It's not a linear diagonal up.

49:39

There's that little backslides.

49:43

So Nita, what is next for you?

49:45

Like what do have planned?

49:47

well, I'm hoping that the next book will come out next year.

49:51

It is another memoir, really pure, pure, memoir about my relationship with my father.

49:59

And it coincided with my worst mental health crisis.

50:05

So he was diagnosed with terminal cancer six months after I got out of the psych ward.

50:10

And I

50:12

had a lot of time on my hands because I wasn't practicing law and all he wanted to do was

50:12

play golf.

50:19

And so we played golf until he couldn't.

50:21

then, you know, so it's about discovering a way through my mental health issues while

50:21

learning about him and learning to let him go because he had terminal lung cancer.

50:34

Yeah, and then it's a lot of my backstory too.

50:36

It's, you know, kind of have to tell the whole story.

50:39

It's a big project that I've been working on for many years.

50:41

It has lots of moving parts.

50:43

And so it's been a real challenge and I don't, I couldn't do it before now.

50:47

I tried and now it's starting to come together.

50:50

So we'll see.

50:51

So it's called Memorial.

50:52

We'll see if that title sticks right now.

50:55

That's the working title Memorial.

50:57

And uh yeah, that's it.

51:00

You know, I have coaching and I have

51:03

marketing of the books and all that kind of stuff, but that's the big thing is I'm very

51:03

focused on trying to get that book out into the world.

51:11

Give it a baby.

51:12

actually made me think of one more question here.

51:14

In your writing, do you find it like challenging to write about some of these things or is

51:14

it more therapeutic?

51:21

Okay, so at first it's therapeutic and then it gets challenging because I have to realize

51:21

that I'm not the only one who cares.

51:31

I have to make other people care about it.

51:33

And so that's the challenging part sometimes is, wait a minute, I have to step back and

51:33

somehow see if this is universal.

51:42

Is there a universal theme here that anybody else besides me would care about?

51:46

Or my dog and my husband maybe.

51:49

Maybe my sister and brother.

51:51

And that's kind of the hard part.

51:52

And then also the structure is often very tough.

51:55

But at some point it becomes, because I'm working so much with the craft elements, the

51:55

structure and the way you say things, it's almost like it's not my story anymore.

52:07

um It's because you have to get, I'm in this kind of technical weeds place where it's not,

52:07

it's almost like they're not real people.

52:16

And then every once in a while, I'll read something and it'll go, oh wait, that really

52:16

happened.

52:23

I remember that.

52:24

You because you have to be in it, but yet you also have to take a step back sometimes.

52:30

yeah, it's both.

52:32

It's all, there are days when I'm crying in my office and I can do about probably about

52:32

three hours on a day of it and then I'm just done.

52:41

And that's both because it's emotional, but also

52:45

Because the focus is just that you need, especially when it's like a huge project.

52:50

We're talking like 90,000 words.

52:51

All these pieces of 31 chapters is all this moving stuff around.

52:57

And there's probably a more efficient way to do it.

53:00

And I've tried every other way.

53:02

And this is just what works for me.

53:03

So somebody else might be much more efficient.

53:05

And it would be less painful for them.

53:07

don't know.

53:08

That's my process.

53:10

I'm book five.

53:10

So we'll see.

53:12

That's great, like it totally makes sense.

53:15

I'm sure there's so many ways to like dive in and write in different ways you can do it.

53:21

you go to a conference and you'll hear 10 different people say that this is the way, you

53:21

know, and it's like, no, there is no one way.

53:28

There's only your way.

53:29

And I've tried a bunch of different ways.

53:32

And the other thing is that what worked for this, what worked for the book before won't

53:32

necessarily work for this book either.

53:37

It's like you have to learn how to write all over again.

53:40

It's kind of crazy.

53:42

So this is kind of just a general question that I tend to ask pretty much everybody that

53:42

comes on the show.

53:49

When it comes to mental health, what you feel is the biggest stigma.

53:54

Oh, um, wow.

53:57

There's so many.

53:58

I think that we're lazy.

54:01

I think that's the lazy.

54:02

That's the one that, know, like we, like if we just tried harder, we'd be fine.

54:09

That's, that's the one that just gets me again and again.

54:11

It's like, this is not, yeah, no, we're not lazy.

54:15

We're either confused or we're exhausted or we're in the wrong place or, you know, like

54:15

with jobs, it might be bad job fit.

54:24

There's all kinds of reasons that you aren't doing more quote potential.

54:28

but yeah, when I hear people talk about, they're just lazy.

54:32

I just want to scream, scream.

54:36

Yeah.

54:37

Yeah.

54:39

Yeah.

54:39

There's about a hundred I could go, but that's the one that popped in my head.

54:41

That's the one that's like a hot button for me.

54:44

You're lazy.

54:45

It's just a phase in life.

54:47

You can get over it.

54:48

Just it's like.

54:50

It's like obviously you've never had to deal with anything past a bad hair day.

54:57

Yeah, or they have, and it didn't, it wasn't chronic, it was acute, because there's a very

54:57

big difference between having an acute episode and then getting well, and someone like me,

55:12

which I think you have it too, Travis, who's chronic, I have a chronic condition.

55:15

This is not, I mean, it gets better, I better days, and I'm much better and much

55:22

more able and you know to do things than I was let's say 10 years ago or 15 years ago but

55:22

it's not going to go away.

55:30

I'm not going to wake up someday and not have bipolar 2 and not have these episodes and

55:30

you know it's chronic so

55:36

You find the workaround, you find, like you said, you've discussed all of them, the tools

55:36

that you use to get through the day by day.

55:45

I find the workaround and I've had the resources to find the workaround too.

55:49

Because I am not here to judge anybody who cannot do any of the things I'm saying.

55:56

Because some people just can't.

55:57

You just can't.

55:58

You can't function and you're not getting help you need.

56:02

you know, that's the truth about what the world we live in right now.

56:09

I totally agree.

56:10

So where can people find you and your stuff?

56:13

The best place is my website, Needasweeney.com.

56:17

And there are some, there's a free little book thing called Three Tools for a Happier,

56:17

Healthier Mind.

56:24

And when you get that, you end up on my email list, which you can either stay on or own

56:24

and subscribe from.

56:31

And I try to keep that updated.

56:34

I have a blog and stuff like that, but that's the best place.

56:36

Just get on my newsletter and you'll hear from me maybe once a month.

56:40

um Maybe not that often.

56:42

try to send an email newsletter often enough that people don't forget who I am, but I

56:42

don't flood people's inboxes.

56:48

I do send a few more emails.

56:50

Like if I have a book coming out, I try to send a few more emails because they fall

56:50

through the cracks.

56:54

Even email will fall through the cracks sometimes.

56:56

And people go, I didn't know you had another book out.

56:58

Yeah, I do.

57:00

do.

57:00

So yeah, that's it.

57:01

NeedtoSweeney.com.

57:02

Thank you for asking that.

57:04

yep.

57:04

And last thing here is we've discussed a lot of topics tonight.

57:08

Is there anything that you'd like to bring up that we did not discuss?

57:11

We need to bring that on, right?

57:16

When you need to that on, You know, I was in a group, was either when I was in the psych

57:16

ward or I was in a group for, they wouldn't let me out of group for almost three years.

57:27

I was bad.

57:28

And at one point in some of that place, we had to make a list of everything we would do

57:28

kind of in lieu of attempting suicide.

57:37

And...

57:38

And that was the last thing on my list was I would make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich

57:38

and eat it.

57:42

And when I run races, the longer kind of races, I will cut, I will make a peanut butter

57:42

and jelly sandwich and cut off the crust and cut it into little tiny pieces and put that

57:53

in a Ziploc bag and carry that with me eat these little pieces as I go on.

57:57

So I'm a big peanut butter and jelly fan.

58:01

Sorry, is random.

58:04

I used to down you know the the frozen Like they're called uncrustables, and I remember

58:04

doubting those yeah but then Yep, I I changed my diet, and I don't eat a lot of foods that

58:20

I used to eat, but I remember

58:22

yeah, yeah, I go with the whole grain bread and actually, that's not true though.

58:27

In races, I usually eat white bread, which I never eat because it's easier to digest when

58:27

you, you know, if you're running, it's easier to digest that.

58:33

But yeah, usually I go with the whole grain.

58:35

If I'm going to eat bread, I don't need a lot of bread.

58:37

But yeah, but yeah, uncrustables that would be that's so see, I didn't, uh I wasn't in

58:37

that generation.

58:43

But yeah, I would have definitely inhaled those.

58:44

Yeah.

58:45

uh

58:49

much for spending some time with me and telling me your story.

58:55

I admire all the stuff that you've, know, I admire you, I should rephrase that.

58:59

I admire you for everything that you've had to overcome.

59:02

And I know that you have a great story to share and keep pushing, keep pushing through the

59:02

hard.

59:11

Thank you so much.

59:12

much, Travis.

59:13

I just want to say thank you for your podcast too, because this is so important.

59:17

Whenever I see anybody doing a mental health anything, I'm just so grateful and happy

59:17

because there's just so many people out there that are suffering.

59:25

if we can touch them and keep them on the planet till they get some help, that's the key.

59:31

Yeah, it is the key and I think a big part of it in this podcast does it is making people

59:31

that feel alone know that they're not alone.

59:41

They're not the only ones that are going through this stuff.

59:44

Not at all, yeah.

59:45

That's great.

59:46

Thank you to all those that have listened.

59:48

Take some time to review us and you can find us on all major podcast platforms.

59:54

Thanks again.

59:55

Until next time.