From Masking to Mastery: Autism, Identity, and Leadership with Murphy Monroe

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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health Podcast.

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I am your host, Travis White.

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This is a place for you to talk about your mental health journey.

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Joining us today is Murphy Monroe, an autistic leader in disability justice and nonprofit

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management.

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Murphy is a commissioner for the city of Evanston, focusing on ADA compliance and access,

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and the executive director of an award-winning circus school and theater company.

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Welcome to the show, Murphy.

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Thanks Travis, I'm really glad to be here.

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Appreciate the open space you've created.

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Well, it's my pleasure to have you on.

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Without wasting any time, I'm just going to hand the microphone over to you and let you

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take us on your journey.

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Sure.

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Well, I mean, I'm married.

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I have a couple of kids, adult kids and a house full of pets.

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And I am a really different person.

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Maybe not different person, but I am embodied differently than I have been.

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And I've been growing into myself over the course of my life.

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I'm autistic and have always known since I was a young as I can remember.

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It was clear to me that there was something really fundamentally different about me than

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everyone else around me.

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It was just super clear to me that I was having an experience that was just fundamentally

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different, that I understood things in a way that were different.

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And also that everything coming at me, I was filtering in a way that I could just aware

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that other people weren't filtering in the same ways.

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I didn't know why I was different or how I was different.

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I just knew I had this big difference about me.

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And in my mind, it was a really big secret.

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I thought that...

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It might mean I had some kind of really bad mental health thing.

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This was in the 80s.

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And not a lot of awareness about things.

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And so in my mind, you know, maybe I'm schizophrenic or something like that.

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And whatever it is, I needed to keep it a secret.

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But it was a hard secret to keep because, you know, the way I often think about it now in

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hindsight is that

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Now maybe at elementary age, I could see one or two feet in front of me, or at least I had

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awareness of what was going on within only one or two feet in front of me.

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And if it wasn't in that space, I probably wasn't able to track it.

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And or wasn't maybe even aware it was happening.

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Everything to me was loud and quick.

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and I had to take it all in at once and just taking in the feeling of being in the room

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was so much that taking in what was happening three, four feet away was just not anything

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to what I'd experienced yet or I'd been able to do yet.

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So as I've grown into my autism and grown into myself and gotten better about managing

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myself and managing my life,

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I've expanded that amount of space that is out in front of me, know, to, you know, when I

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was in high school, it was three or four feet.

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And, you know, when I, you know, left high school and went to college, you know, maybe I

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got it to four feet.

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And, you know, when I entered the workforce and, you know, had big jobs early on for...

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largely because of the kind of brain that I have and the way that I think.

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And so I got to maybe five, six, seven feet out in front of me.

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And now here I am, a good dozen plus years from there.

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And I feel like a pretty wide view out into the world, not all at once.

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but I'm much more able to see out, to have a good sense of what's happening around me, to

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not be so impacted by everything that's coming at me and to be able to filter through it

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in a different kind of way.

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One of the things about this that's most, I think, maybe poignant or for me, most specific

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is light.

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So folks who are autistic have a spectrum of different ways that they're being impacted by

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their autism.

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And for many people, they are perhaps hyper sensitive to...

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uh input coming at them or in case some people are hyposensitive to input coming at them.

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In my case, I'm just extremely sensitive to sound and to light and to fluctuations in

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temperature, all sorts of things, but light in particular.

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And so just to give a sense, throughout my life, I have been overtaken

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by light.

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And so I reach a point where my eyes, my brain are no longer to process the light that's

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coming into me.

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And I can feel this happening and everything starts to slow down for me and it's slowing

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down.

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And as it's slowing down, I'm starting to think a little bit slower and my vision is

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starting to narrow a little bit.

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and I'm starting to have a hard time talking.

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I'm starting to stutter or have a hard time finding words to say.

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And then I'm having a hard time keeping my legs up.

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And I'm having a hard time standing.

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And before you know it, then I'm just on the ground.

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And my eyes have come all the way in closed.

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My voice has just stopped.

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I've stopped being able to speak or think of words.

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And I really have just been taken out, overcome by this light and sensory coming into me.

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This experience usually ends with me getting sick and then having some opportunity to

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start to come back from it.

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This happened to me regularly as a kid without any knowledge from my parents or anyone

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else what was happening to me.

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We didn't know it was light until I was older, until I became a teenager.

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And I didn't really learn how to manage the light in my life and the input of light onto

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me until I was really a grown adult and well into my career.

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And even now I'm still finding ways to improve.

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how I move about the world and how I interact with the world in order to make me as

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successful as possible and sort of to expand how far out I'm able to see at any one given

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time.

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And so you mentioned early on about kind of your childhood and you you thought you had all

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these different mental health problems.

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What did it look like when you were getting your diagnosis?

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What was that journey like?

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Yeah, so the first time I received any kind of diagnosis was as a teenager and I was told

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I had dysgraphia, which is a very, very common autistic trait.

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It's just that it's a hard time with handwriting and small motor skills in that way or

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even being able to interpret it.

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I also was told at the time that I had what's called echolalia.

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Echolalia is a version of Pallalia, but it's where you are constantly repeating your own

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self after you talk.

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So I would always speak words, and I would just repeat myself after I would say something,

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and without any awareness that I was doing this.

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And I was also told at the time that I had Asperger's.

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And Asperger's wasn't something that was very known at the time.

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ah Asperger's is no longer a term really used, it's just part of the autism spectrum.

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So that diagnosis came when I was a teenager and none of it really meant much to me.

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I think my parents had me start seeing a therapist and got me a tutor and that was more or

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less what I made of that.

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Later...

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When I had gotten out of college, was seeing a psychiatrist for a while and that

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psychiatrist one day just turned to me in the session and said, Hey Murphy, like, do you

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not know you're autistic?

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And I was like, what, what, what are you talking about?

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And I then just went and started doing a bunch of reading and connecting autism to

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Asperger's and getting familiar with Temple Grandin and

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I thought about it a lot and got involved in it.

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This was maybe about at the age of 25, 26, 27.

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And I joined a support group of other folks with autism.

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And I, for whatever reason, just rejected all of it.

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I just, in my mind, just made a decision that that's not me, that can't be me.

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Those aren't my people and I'm not going to be able to be this.

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And also, you know, at the time I was the, I was a really young director of admissions for

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a major private arts college.

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And I just thought there's no way that this can all be and this isn't me, this isn't who I

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am.

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And I just turned my back on it.

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And I immediately just started to do my best to convince the world that I wasn't.

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autistic and just really started doubling down on masking, doubling down on doing

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everything I could to convince everybody else around me that I wasn't autistic, that I was

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just like them.

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And it's a really hard thing to do.

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And it's something that's really common amongst folks who are neurodivergent and amongst

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all sorts of people with disabilities and without.

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um It's just really actively pretending to be something you're not, actively holding your

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muscles in a certain way, actively using certain word choices, actively counting eye

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contact, and doing all sorts of things in order to make myself feel for everybody else

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that I'm fitting in.

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But when one does this over time, it's a covering up of oneself.

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and eventually it's a loss of oneself.

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Because eventually you just, it is who you are.

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If that's the way that you are now always holding yourself, and if that's the way you are

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always now reacting to things, and if those are the filters you've now put in place, and

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if those scripts that you've written for yourself have become so rote that they're now

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just the things that you say, you are just now this thing.

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no longer who you were and not even so sure of Exactly who that was or where that person

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begins and this mask ends And this is a really common thing and something that I spent a

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good 20 years just really suffering in You know You look at the

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homeless population in the US, it's 16 % autistic.

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It's the highest other than addiction.

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It's the highest rate within the homeless population.

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And a really big part of that is this masking.

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Is this like forced into being something you're not and a just complete loss of identity,

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which ultimately leads to depression.

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and all sorts of horrible outcomes.

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So it was about several years ago now that I started seeing all sorts of autistic content

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creators on social media.

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just listening.

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and picking up some couple of those old books that I have had around forever on autism.

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it's just all was just immediately just the most obvious thing and hit me over the head.

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I made an appointment with a well-known psychologist in the Chicago area who does adult

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autism evaluations and diagnosis and is well known for it.

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And I went to see her and went through the long process of diagnosis, which takes several

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meetings and interviews and tests and interviews of your family.

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But really only maybe a third of the way into this process, she just said to me, hey,

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Murphy, before we even get any further, you just need to know you're autistic.

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And just hearing that there and then just sort of changed everything for me.

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Travis, even though I was a grown adult, even though I had spent so much time thinking

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about all of this, all of the sudden, I was autistic.

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And autistic was something to be.

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And that label of being autistic, in fact, was much better than all of the labels I was

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allowing people to put on me or all the labels that I was putting on myself.

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And a big relief, just a huge relief to me.

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that this is who I am and this is why I I'm you know, I I it's a kid Travis my mom was a

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teacher and my dad was the superintendent of schools and I couldn't read I couldn't pay

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attention in class I couldn't Follow what the teacher was saying I just couldn't but I

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made it through elementary school and then into and through junior high largely

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because my dad was the superintendent and I had a professor-like way of talking and the

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teachers just all, you know, pushed me through and it, you know, really wasn't until high

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school that I started to have to really find ways to trick the teachers into being

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convinced that I was doing the work.

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Yeah, and it's like, I always think of like getting diagnosed with something is kind of

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twofold.

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It's like, there's that side of you that wants to know, and there's a side of you that

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does not want to know, because it can always, you know, just in case worst case.

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But it sounds like for you is just kind of a moment of clarity and kind of like a, you

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know, the relief was like, oh, everything makes sense now of why things were the way they

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were.

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Yeah, I think that the thing about the diagnosis is that it's definitive, right?

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And so you get it and then like, boom, that's it.

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It feels definitive.

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But yes, for me, it just felt like a tremendous relief.

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There are so, I have so many things about me that are incredible that I think are just

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wonderful about me in ways my brain works and ways I think.

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and ways I am just led by my heart that I'm just like enormously proud of and have always

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known about myself but have been shy or hidden about because I never, just, I don't know

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how to quite explain it, but then there's all these other things about me that I haven't

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liked about myself, right?

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That my inability to pay attention, my inability to...

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stand still, my inability to not, I'm very torrentic and so I do a lot of shouting out of

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odd phrases or moving of my hands and I just, all of these things were things I just did

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not like about myself and wanted to have excuses for, blame myself for.

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And same thing with like the photophobia.

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All of the sudden, all of it has a route that makes sense.

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and has nothing to do with my fault or something I've done wrong.

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And then it makes those things I like about myself, the gifts, the things that I know are

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special about me that we all have, but I just know and feel.

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Those things started to feel like things I could fine tune.

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And that were, started feeling like gifts and things that I could hone and take control

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over and...

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used to my advantage.

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And so, yeah, with the diagnosis came a great sense of relief.

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And one of the first things I did, this is, yeah, I was a 40 something year old man, I

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went on Etsy and I found a creator who made these really beautiful pins that look like

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badges.

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And it just says autistic.

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And I just put it on me, on my bag or on my shirt, and I just started wearing it every

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day.

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Forcing...

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people in my life who either don't know me or who have known me for years to just all of a

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sudden get confronted with this and either ask me about it or go off on their own and read

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about it or whatever it is.

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But it just forced me to sort of publicly tell everyone this is who I am.

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And I still feel that way today.

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If I'm asked to introduce myself to a crowd of people,

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I want them to know I'm autistic.

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It makes me, I feel like it gives me a bit of a permission structure to be more myself.

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And it gives them a permission structure to like, you know, understand a bit, like to not

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judge and not have to draw assumptions or conclusions or whatever it is.

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And it, for me has been, yeah, a big relief and a help propel me in a whole new direction.

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Yeah, and I love that you kind of just, you you got this diagnosis and you're proud of who

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you are.

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Like, because sometimes I even think people tend to sometimes hide behind their diagnosis

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because they don't want the world to know something about them.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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It was such mental health stigma in our country and in our world, in fact, with these very

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few societies that don't have some stigma about it.

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But in America, it's particularly a stigma and it's a difficult thing for people to want

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to confront about themselves or want to be labeled about them.

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And yeah, it's changing, or hopefully it's changing.

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yeah, and it's really important, because all these young kids now, many of whom have been

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diagnosed as autistic, but have parents that don't want to share that diagnosis with the

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kid.

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ah Because they have a worry and I feel for these parents.

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I don't I'm not in standing in judgment of these parents, but they have a Concern that if

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they do give the kid that label then it'll just put them in that box forever It might

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limit the kid in some way it might limit their the way other people interact with them and

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no doubt that all of those things are potential and true, but ah

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The lack of knowing creates so many other complications and creates so many other

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narratives and theories and labels that are traumatizing.

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And ultimately, autistic kids grow into autistic adults.

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There is no evidence otherwise.

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so allowing them to be autistic

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and allowing them to grow into it makes a lot of sense and is something you see more and

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more families doing.

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Mm-hmm.

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A couple of minutes ago, you mentioned masking.

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And after years of, I guess, masking, what was the hardest part about unmasking and kind

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of stepping into this new you?

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One of the hardest parts is my face.

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I move my, you know, I'm not, how do I explain this?

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Well, I do, when I am trying to sit with someone and if you and I are in a meeting, let's

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say, you know, I was in a meeting with someone, my goal would be in that meeting, I would

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have several goals and I would be running these scripts in my head.

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So first thing would be Murphy sit down right away.

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fast as you can find a seat and sit down so you're not like standing and know bobbing and

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weaving and as soon as I sit down the next thing in my script is put a knee across my legs

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so that I can have one leg on top of my other leg and I can hold it down to stop myself

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from rocking or moving.

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So script one sit down script two don't rock sit down don't rock sit down don't rock sit

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down don't rock.

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Script three is I want to appear

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I'm to the person I'm with in the way that they want me to appear.

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And by that I mean my facial, my face and how I'm looking to them.

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So I'm looking at you and I'm figuring out your face and I'm giving it right back to you

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to the best of my ability.

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It doesn't even mean I'm good at it.

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It just means that like this is what I'm doing in order to try to convince you that I'm

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not autistic, right?

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So now I'm sitting still, I'm not rocking.

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I'm mirroring your face and the next thing I have to do is eye contact.

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Because if I just mirror your face, I'm just gonna stare at you.

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But I need to give you eye contact, but I don't need to give you intense eye contact, so I

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need to count it out.

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So now don't sit, excuse me, sit, don't rock, mimic the face, look in the eyes.

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One, two, three, look away.

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Don't rock, don't rock.

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And then oftentimes I have a problem where I am erratic.

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I say things out loud quite often.

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So I need a script for that.

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Don't say anything.

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Don't say anything, Murph.

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Don't rock.

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Don't say anything.

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Mimic the face.

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Mimic the face.

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Eye contact.

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One, two, three.

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No, no, keep my head.

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Keep my leg down.

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Hold your leg down, Murphy.

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Okay, back to the eye contact.

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One, two, three.

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Don't say anything.

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Don't say anything.

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And throughout all of this, I also have to meet with you.

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I also have to hear what you have to say and then convince you of whatever it is I'm here

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to convince you of.

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Or get convinced by you of whatever it is you're here to convince me of.

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And I have to do all of that, but the main thing that 80 % of my energy is focused on is

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how I think I appear to you.

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And...

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You're not thinking I'm doing any of those things, likely.

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You might think I look kind of odd or something, or why is he keep, like, you know,

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looking at me or whatever, but you wouldn't be thinking in your brain that the vast

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majority of his attention is spent on trying to not look autistic right now.

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All of those scripts over time just build on top of each other, and that's just some of

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them, right?

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And they build on top of each other, and they're just like a

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constant cacophony of rules and sounds.

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And so one of the things that's happened is I've unmasked more and more is I still don't

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know how to hold my face.

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I don't just, it's, I don't know.

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I don't really know how to hold my face.

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And so I, it's, I don't want to mimic someone else's face.

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I want to smile because I want you to know that like I'm a friendly person and I'm happy

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to be here.

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But I have to remember.

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I have to like remember to do that.

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And if I don't remember, oftentimes I'll start doing something like this.

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moving my mouth and face around and just I'm not even conscious that I'm doing it and I

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just start doing it and I have to then either let myself keep doing that or you know ask

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myself you know can you not do that and what should I do and so really the hardest part of

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unmasking is all of those scripts and giving myself permission to let go of

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And so, know, I go to church every week.

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I go to a Quaker service, a Quaker friend meeting every week that I really love.

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And the Tourette thing is hard there because they meet in silence.

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It's supposed to be silent.

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And every once in a while, I'm like, you know, shouting out something like, you know,

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literally, it might be like, I love my wife.

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and like literally just do this in like the middle of it that was so scary to me and so I

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would have to run lots of scripts during, you know, silent during, you know, the church

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because I had to run scripts to not do that.

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But then I just let go of that script and just, you know, had my autistic pin on and, you

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know, allowed myself to say whatever I said during that time.

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And several times,

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I have and like it's just not been a thing.

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Nobody's cared.

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In fact, maybe some people are even endeared and it's fine.

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But I had to do a lot of work to let go of that script to get to the point where I was

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just calm and relaxed enough there that that would just happen and that would be fine when

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it happened.

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And so letting go of those things.

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And just allowing myself to just what happens happens and what you know what we get we get

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um

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you can finish your thought if you...

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Yeah, I was just gonna say it's actually hard to...

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Like, I can understand where you're coming from because at times, like, it's hard to be

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yourself.

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It's hard to be comfortable around a group of people and to actually show the true you.

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Mm-hmm.

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We all want to fit in so bad.

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Yeah, and we all have, or we shouldn't say all because we don't all, but there's an

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internal dialogue for a lot of people that does a lot of self-questioning.

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That I think in those moments as well makes it hard to just relax and be yourself if

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there's this, you know, constant sort of questioning of, you know,

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how we're fitting in or how we're doing or what they're thinking and all those other, it's

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hard, it's complicated, it's all layered.

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And these are all things that all of us, no doubt, everything in the mental health

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spectrum ultimately I think exists for people in different kinds of ways.

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It's just on this spectrum of intensity.

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I mean, I don't mean that to downplay anything.

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Depression is an incredibly serious and super difficult thing.

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and depression is not sadness.

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But there are concepts within depression that people, think, can understand a little bit

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and can wrap their minds around from their own experiences.

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And we all have, because of the shared human experience, so many of these things we all

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have in common in different ways.

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Yeah, it's so true.

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it's, I'm trying to think of like how to word this next question.

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So you've, you've learned, you kind of adjusted yourself to learn how to speak more

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openly.

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And I almost say lead and, how, what did that look like?

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How did you, how did that journey start off?

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Well, so it certainly had me become a different kind of leader, no doubt about it.

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My career has been in positions where I've managed a lot of people, either in higher ed or

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in the corporate world or in the nonprofit world.

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And I've always been a caring leader and I've always been a, you know, like a, try to be a

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motivating leader.

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But in the last phase of my growth here, I've just started to more than ever see every

28:10

single person as just an individual set of skills.

28:28

and needs and desires and wants that need to be individually tuned and catered for.

28:36

And that in order to really be like an effective leader or an effective manager, one has

28:36

to be in tune with people and in tune with what makes them click, with what motivates

28:48

them.

28:49

with what kind of environment they're going to be most successful working in, with what

28:49

kind of work is going to be most interesting to them, is going to be most motivating to

28:59

them, where they best fit into the organization based on who they are and what makes them

28:59

tick and the experiences they've had.

29:07

And this includes abilities and disabilities, and this includes all sorts of different

29:07

kinds of skills and needs that exist within the workplace.

29:17

And as I've gotten more willing to talk about my own discomforts, my own foibles, my own

29:17

things about me that are hard to talk about, I've just become more more obvious to me and

29:30

more more aware to me of how all of us have these things.

29:33

All of us have stuff holding us back.

29:36

All of us have things that make stuff more difficult than maybe it really needs to be.

29:41

if something could just be adjusted or said in a different way or held during a different

29:41

time of the day or in a different place or in a different volume or whatever it may be.

29:53

And so I've just become much more empathetic and much more willing to sort of craft

29:53

people's jobs and roles to

30:02

ultimately, you know, what we learned together along the way.

30:06

Very cool.

30:07

And you, you were involved in the corporate world, but now you're, you're the director of

30:07

a award.

30:13

Are you still doing the circus school stuff?

30:16

Yes.

30:16

So I'm the uh executive director of an amazing organization in Chicago called the Actors

30:16

Gymnasium.

30:22

It's a circus school and a producing theater company.

30:27

So we teach circus at all levels, both like kids and adults for fun, but also we train

30:27

serious professionals in all the circus arts.

30:36

We teach about a thousand students a year.

30:38

And then we also help, we produce our own theater and we help other theater companies

30:43

produce shows that have all sorts of circus or circusy type elements in them, flying and

30:43

fighting and all sorts of stuff like that.

30:52

As a kid, I had hard time imagining what I could grow up and do.

30:57

It was really a fear of mine.

30:58

Everybody else had all of these skills already that I didn't have, both athletic and in

30:58

terms of school and reading and just all sorts of stuff that I...

31:07

quite confident I didn't have skills in and I was really worried about what kind of job I

31:07

could possibly have.

31:12

truck driver was one that I like I had on my list and I thought was a solid like good idea

31:12

and you know that even on the side of the trucks they tell you how much you earn a mile

31:22

and like as a little kid I would just do the math of you know how much per mile and could

31:22

I drive enough miles in a year and you know truck driver was one but the other one that I

31:31

thought of

31:33

that I could do was being a clown.

31:36

I thought that there really are people who are clowns.

31:39

They must be getting paid.

31:40

And I thought that that's something that I could also probably do.

31:44

I think I would have that skill set.

31:46

And so as a kid, I dreamed of being a clown.

31:50

I went to college for theater.

31:52

There was a clown who taught there named Davis Robinson who I studied under.

31:57

Being a clown just always was a thing to me.

32:00

And so after I've had this career in higher ed and corporate world, this position became

32:00

available at this circus school in Chicago.

32:10

And I just really wanted to try my hat at it.

32:14

And boy, am I glad I did.

32:15

I've been doing this for eight years now.

32:17

And it's like a joyful enterprise and all of these strong, amazing, brave people.

32:24

and tons of neurodivergence within that world, of course.

32:28

And also a fun world to try to figure out how to make more inclusive when it comes to

32:28

neurodivergence or mental health or disability.

32:38

Because it's a world that's so based on being physical and repetition and um all of those

32:38

things.

32:46

so...

32:46

Yeah, it's like super fun for me.

32:48

I'm not a clown, but you know, I run the payroll for all the clowns.

32:53

So that's pretty good.

32:56

Awesome.

32:56

I love it.

32:57

I love that you found something and it sounds like it's a place you can be really

32:57

authentic.

33:03

Yes, that's right.

33:04

In fact, when I, as part of the story really is when I interviewed for this job, I

33:04

interviewed it for it with that autistic pin on.

33:12

And there were several layers to the interview, you know, with the board and the faculty

33:12

and the staff.

33:17

And in each one of these interviews, it's one of the very first things I talked about was

33:17

that I'm autistic.

33:23

I'm still learning things about myself.

33:25

There's some things I'm not as good at as others.

33:28

I don't like working in a bright workplace.

33:30

And if you hire me, this is the way I'm going to be and I'm going to tell you all about it

33:30

and I'm going to find ways to accommodate myself and I'm going to find ways for everybody

33:39

to be accommodated in the organization.

33:41

And I just thought if I get the job, then amazing.

33:45

And if I don't, then it's okay.

33:47

And I did get the job.

33:48

And so I've had this luxury.

33:50

It's a privilege really.

33:52

of being able to show up at work every day and be my authentic self.

33:57

that's really cool and I love it and so to keep yourself like grounded and you know keep

33:57

healing from you know past things and just life in general are there any techniques

34:14

methods or like types of therapy that you use to keep going

34:18

Yes, yeah, a lot of things, but for me the primary tool is stillness, darkness,

34:18

meditation.

34:30

I am super interested in float therapy or sensory deprivation tanks.

34:37

I don't know if you're familiar, but this is a common practice.

34:43

You'll find float centers all over the place and what it is is

34:47

10 inches of 10 inches of water, incredibly clean, pure water that's heated exactly to

34:47

skin temperature.

34:57

Skin temperature is 95 degrees.

34:59

And then in that water, that 10 inches of water, is put magnesium sulfate or Epsom salt at

34:59

a 40 % concentration.

35:10

So 1000 plus pounds of magnesium sulfate into this 10 inches of water.

35:16

everything heated to skin temperature, approximately 95 degrees, right?

35:22

When a human being lies on top of that water, it's completely buoyant, just like the Dead

35:22

Sea.

35:29

And so you are just lying without any gravity whatsoever, just completely buoyant right on

35:29

top of that water.

35:37

And that water is heated to your skin temperature.

35:41

So then the next thing we do is we heat the air above the water.

35:46

also to your skin temperature.

35:48

So now the air, the body, and the water are one single temperature.

35:53

Then we turn off the lights and eliminate all of the sound.

36:00

And so at this point you can't see anything, you can't hear anything, and since the air,

36:00

water, and body are all of the same temperature and everything is humid, you truly can't

36:14

feel anything.

36:16

And since you can't see the water, your body loses awareness of the water.

36:22

The water disappears from your consciousness and you are simply just floating in total

36:22

darkness with absolutely no sensations on your body or no sensory input in any way

36:36

whatsoever.

36:37

And that's floating.

36:38

And it's something I discovered.

36:40

I did the first time many years ago, but rediscovered about 10 years ago.

36:47

And there's float centers all over the place.

36:50

And I has now become a super regular practice of mine.

36:56

Something I do every day if I can for an hour plus.

37:03

And just a place where I get to be in total

37:08

reserved and total stillness.

37:10

It's like anonymity and it's just like freedom for my mind.

37:14

And so a really big part of my calmness, of my ability to center myself, of my ability to

37:14

go longer in a day before I'm so burnt out that I can't operate anymore.

37:29

big part of that recharge comes from that stillness and that safe, sensory-free space.

37:36

So if I had any personal trick that's helped me above anything else, it would certainly be

37:36

that.

37:42

That's really cool.

37:43

I've always been curious about float therapy.

37:45

I honestly only heard about it like six months ago.

37:48

I saw like an advertisement.

37:50

I think it was like on Instagram or something.

37:53

I don't even know.

37:53

And so I looked into a place around here, but now you're you're making it so I actually

37:53

want to try it.

37:59

Like I think that's super cool.

38:02

Yeah, it's worth trying once for sure.

38:05

Even just for the, you know, the buoyancy is pretty incredible.

38:08

I mean, no gravity and just, you know, no pressure on your joints, on your muscles, on

38:08

your bones, just whatsoever.

38:16

It's just like pressure free.

38:18

It's just a rare feeling for anybody.

38:21

And I have bad anxiety and depression, so I think that kind of stillness and that kind of

38:21

that low light type of place seems just very relaxing and.

38:34

Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely.

38:37

Anxiety is a common thing.

38:39

You see people floating.

38:41

One of the common reasons you see people floating is anxiety and trauma processing.

38:46

Absolutely, yeah.

38:49

Super cool.

38:49

I'm going to look into more local area ones to see what I can find out.

38:56

So we talked a little bit about the workplace.

39:00

What do you think that like employers can do to better accommodate for those with

39:00

suffering or I don't want to say suffering, like with.

39:12

Sorry, I used the wrong word there.

39:15

With.

39:17

high functioning autism, like what can they do to better accommodate?

39:20

yeah, yeah.

39:22

You know, I think I said suffering earlier, Travis, and it's one of those words that none

39:22

of us want to use, but there's also like, there is truth to it, and it is a word that

39:32

explains something.

39:33

But anyways, I feel that a lot myself.

39:35

Okay, so yeah, so for those who are autistic ADHD on the neurodivergent spectrum,

39:41

There's a lot of things that employers can do.

39:45

There isn't one sort of, you know, perfect test, but there's all sorts of things that can

39:45

happen.

39:50

And one of the first is just simply workspace.

39:52

And so there's all sorts of practices, you know, that can work against the success of

39:52

someone autistic in a workspace.

40:01

So whether it's the lighting of the space can often be really important.

40:06

the sound of the space if it's in a loud space or a less loud space or a distracting

40:06

space, the difference between working at home or working in the office, the difference

40:16

between having your own dedicated workspace or just having like the ability to work

40:16

wherever in an open space, all sorts of differences like that if they're really managed

40:28

well and provided to set up in a way that's going to work best for the employee.

40:33

can make a huge difference.

40:36

Another common thing that you see is meetings.

40:41

So for a lot of neurodivergent folks, they are not going to do their best if they are just

40:41

invited to a meeting without knowing what the meeting is about, what's going to be

40:51

discussed at the meeting, or what the agenda is of the meeting.

40:55

And so a really common accommodation is simply

40:59

knowing about meetings in advance and having an idea in advance of what the meeting is

40:59

about so one can be prepared.

41:05

So agendas before meetings is something that doesn't happen in a lot of workplaces, but

41:05

could all of a sudden add a whole lot of comfort for folks, which then allows them to like

41:19

be their best.

41:20

Now they can show up to the meeting and contribute.

41:22

Otherwise you might have just have someone showing up at the meeting and they're not

41:22

contributing.

41:28

But now you have employees showing up and contributing and it makes a huge difference.

41:34

Other things are notes.

41:36

So oftentimes, maybe after a meeting, can be really useful if there's a shared

41:36

understanding of the meeting or shared understanding of what the to-dos or takeaways or

41:45

things that are now going to happen following the meeting.

41:48

And a lot of work environments.

41:50

It just sort of happens fast-paced and there's a lot of assumptions that are made and some

41:50

things get done and some don't and then it all gets worked out on Slack or an email or

41:59

whatever.

42:01

But could be a whole lot of efficiency and a whole lot of comfort and clarity if there was

42:01

just a series of to-dos or a series of tasks at the end of the meeting of understanding

42:12

who's responsible for what creates clarity and understanding.

42:19

social expectations in the workplace.

42:21

It's a simple one, but it really happens a lot.

42:24

And so there can be a price to pay for not being socially involved in the workplace, not

42:24

being there when everybody is singing Happy Birthday to Nancy, or not being there at the

42:37

picnic when it's at the company picnic held in the sun, or whatever it is.

42:43

There's all sorts of ways that those types of events can be held in a way that meets

42:43

everybody's needs.

42:49

And I'm not suggesting like only hold your events in calm indoor places.

42:54

I'm suggesting know your employees.

42:56

Like know who the people are that work for you are and know what they're like and know

42:56

what they need so that you can figure out the best solution that works best for everybody.

43:06

And that's really...

43:09

The advice is like know your employees, whether they're disabled or not.

43:14

They all have things that they would be doing better for you if you were to accommodate

43:14

them in different ways.

43:21

And everyone wants to get their best out of their employees.

43:24

Everybody wants to retain employees.

43:26

Everyone wants to have the kind of workplace that employees want to work at.

43:30

And so knowing your employees.

43:32

and accommodating them in reasonable ways that'll help them ultimately be their best at

43:32

work, understand their role best, understand their expectations best.

43:43

They're just gonna perform better, everybody is.

43:45

And those are the places, those are the places that I always start.

43:49

Yeah, and that's all really good stuff and I totally agree with you.

43:54

What?

43:56

And I actually think now that you've said some of those things, think I believe I actually

43:56

work with somebody that may be on the spectrum.

44:08

And you made a couple of light bulbs go off on my head.

44:12

was like, oh, that makes sense of why he acts a certain way.

44:17

Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely.

44:21

Yes, that's right, right.

44:22

And it's not the same for every autistic person, right?

44:26

Like, you know, just like anything else, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one

44:26

autistic person.

44:32

But there is a different sensory wiring happening.

44:36

There is a different neurological wiring going on, which means that they are reacting to

44:36

stimuli differently, and it's predictable.

44:44

um And it's figureoutable.

44:45

And yeah, we just all have to talk to each other.

44:48

And make it so that people are comfortable asking for accommodations.

44:52

And then just making it just absolutely second nature to just accept all of the reasonable

44:52

ones.

44:59

Any accommodation that comes to you that's at all reasonable, just take it.

45:04

and let your employees have that so that they can get their best disabled or not.

45:10

And so I was going through your website and I saw that you were featured in the New York

45:10

Times.

45:16

What was it like sharing your personal journey on such a global stage?

45:22

such a nice question.

45:23

Well, it was fun.

45:24

They reached out to me and I was excited.

45:26

didn't really was shocked when I got the call.

45:29

There's a lot of people who do what I do.

45:33

so I was really thrilled to talk to them, had a couple of long conversations.

45:38

And the piece is ultimately about, it's similar to what we're talking about, it is about

45:38

workplace accommodations and ultimately what workplaces are successful.

45:48

so getting that out there, getting that message out there in such a prominent place, it

45:48

was just super exciting.

45:55

And have heard from all sorts of folks that got them thinking, that put ideas in their

45:55

brains.

46:02

HR folks and others who, you know, start to think about it differently.

46:06

And so, yeah, it was fun and I was glad to be part of it.

46:13

Super nervous though when a photographer, she shows up from the New York Times.

46:18

know I would be and I'm like one of the least photogenic people like I can't stand like to

46:18

this day I've been You're like my almost my 50th interview and to this day I still can't

46:31

stand to be in front of a camera It's still like very I don't know the word like

46:39

Yeah.

46:41

It's just not comfortable.

46:43

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

46:44

It's like another presence that you have to account for.

46:47

Yeah.

46:48

these things.

46:48

I'm like, okay, you just have to bear with it.

46:51

Get through it.

46:51

I'm good.

46:52

I'm good.

46:53

Yep.

46:55

Just a few more questions here.

46:57

Why is it important to you to speak up about autism and mental health?

47:03

Well, because of who I was as a little kid, and because of how scared I was, and how alone

47:03

I felt, and how worried I was, and how desperate I became at times, and knowing that all

47:17

of those, and I was a kid growing up in a privileged way, right?

47:21

I had parents with some means, and I had parents who

47:26

wanted to help.

47:27

And even in all of that world, it was hard.

47:30

It was traumatizing.

47:32

And I just don't want that.

47:34

I want kids to not have a secret.

47:37

I want them to feel like what's going on with them is who they are.

47:41

And that who they are is who they are and that who they are is needed.

47:45

And that every one of us

47:47

has strengths in us that are here for a purpose, every single one of us.

47:51

And until we really get to know ourselves, until we figure out like who we are, what makes

47:51

us tick, what doesn't make us tick, we're not gonna get to the core of our greatest

48:02

skills.

48:04

And we need everyone, we need everyone everywhere to figure out like what they're best at

48:04

and bring it to the table because that's what...

48:13

That's what the world needs.

48:14

That's what society needs like for real.

48:16

That's how things get solved.

48:18

That's how we start talking to each other.

48:21

And so it's both like a really big goal and a little goal.

48:24

I wanna talk about it because I wanna reach kids and I wanna reach parents who can realize

48:24

that autism is something to be proud of.

48:33

It's something to be excited about.

48:34

Whether one is experiencing it

48:37

in many of the profound ways that folks do that might have them ultimately end up

48:37

nonverbal or end up with like apraxia and out of touch with their body.

48:47

Still, all with unbelievable gifts and skills that are not going to be brought out, are

48:47

not going to be understood until we're all talking about it.

48:59

And so I wanna help kids feel good about it.

49:01

I wanna help their parents help kids feel good about it.

49:06

Very well said.

49:08

I absolutely love that response because it's like, a lot of kids need to know like,

49:08

they're feeling is real and it's okay to be yourself.

49:16

Like you're not alone in this world.

49:18

That's right.

49:19

That's right.

49:21

Absolutely right.

49:23

So what would you say is the most surprising thing you've learned about yourself on this

49:23

journey?

49:31

that's a great question.

49:31

Yeah, well, it's definitely the most surprising thing I've learned about myself on this

49:31

journey is that I'm calm.

49:38

Is that I'm not...

49:41

I don't...

49:41

I have a natural state where I'm not shaking.

49:45

I have a natural state where my brain isn't racing.

49:50

I have a natural state and I'm not saying I can just achieve this natural state anytime I

49:50

want but I have the ability to be calm, to center myself.

50:00

I now have breathing techniques and other things that I can do that can put me into this

50:00

kind of space I need to when I need to.

50:09

And so what's most surprising to me is just that I'm in control of me.

50:14

I'm able to calm myself when I need and also that I'm not necessarily not a calm person.

50:21

And that's a revelation.

50:24

It's really cool though, like when you figure out those techniques that help calm

50:24

yourself, it's actually really cool how much they do work if you take the time to make

50:36

them a habit.

50:38

Mm-hmm.

50:39

Yes.

50:40

Absolutely right.

50:42

It has to be a habit, has to get ingrained in you, has to be something that...

50:46

And you have to believe it.

50:48

You know, I think a lot of people think about, you know, like breath work that like, they

50:48

don't really believe that that connection exists the way it does.

50:56

But it's very real.

50:58

And the things that we can do with our breath, with our bodies, with our minds are way

50:58

more than...

51:07

most people even can scratch the surface of understanding.

51:12

Yeah, for sure.

51:14

If you could go back and tell your younger self, why think about life and healing?

51:20

What would it be?

51:24

Um, yeah, so hard.

51:25

if I could go back and tell my younger self, yeah, I would tell them that,

51:35

Yeah, that your experience is real.

51:38

That there's integrity to you and to what you're experiencing.

51:44

And that you are different.

51:46

Like, you are different.

51:48

But that difference is the best thing about you.

51:51

And there's another side to it.

51:53

And...

51:54

It's hard for me, it's still hard for me to think about.

51:57

Yeah, that little boy is still traumatized in many ways.

52:00

Yeah, awesome.

52:03

And this is kind of just a generalized question I ask all my guests.

52:10

What, and you touch base on a little bit.

52:12

What is the biggest stigma when it comes to mental health?

52:17

Oh, yeah, the biggest stigma or, well, don't know if quite this is what you mean, but I

52:17

would say the biggest stigma or misunderstanding is that there isn't competence behind

52:33

nonverbal individuals.

52:36

And so there's a lot of people who are partially nonverbal or totally nonverbal or

52:36

voluntarily nonverbal and

52:45

A lot of them for different reasons, autism the most common.

52:48

And for a long time, and continuing to today, there has just been a lack of, we didn't

52:48

assume competence, and that there wasn't somebody there, there wasn't something there.

53:00

And the truth is, as we learn more and more, and as so many people have always known,

53:00

there is competence, and every person.

53:08

behind every soul is a gift.

53:12

sometimes the greatest gifts given are given to people who don't appear to have the

53:12

greatest gifts.

53:20

And so when we meet people, however they are, however they present, assuming competence

53:20

and being open to their gifts to me is

53:31

just a massive misunderstanding and stigma that needs to go away.

53:36

And that's exactly the type of response I'm looking for, because to me, with that

53:36

question, there's no right or wrong answer.

53:42

I love all of them.

53:43

It's pretty cool, the responses that I get.

53:46

Yeah, awesome.

53:48

Well, this was fun, Travis.

53:49

Yeah, so just I'd have like just two more easy follow up questions.

53:53

ah Where can people find you?

53:57

Great, yeah.

53:58

So people who want to learn more about me, it's best to find me on my website, which is

53:58

murphymonroe.com.

54:05

M-U-R-P-H-Y M-O-N-R-O-E.

54:09

There they can learn about me, learn about the work that I do, both the circus work, but

54:09

also I do a lot of consulting and keynote speaking, people want to learn more about that.

54:19

would welcome them too, and they can contact me from there.

54:22

And I'm always happy to hear from anybody about anything.

54:26

And so folks are welcome to reach out to me and I'm happy to connect.

54:30

Perfect.

54:31

Last thing here, as we covered a lot of ground on tonight, this episode, is there anything

54:31

that we did not discuss that you would like to bring up?

54:48

I don't think so.

54:50

think we've...

54:54

Yeah, sorry, Travis.

54:54

I don't have anything right now for that.

54:56

Yep.

54:58

Appreciate it.

55:01

yeah.

55:03

Awesome.

55:03

Well, Murphy, I admire your authenticity and how you've been able to overcome all these

55:03

challenges in your life and be the real you.

55:15

Thank you so much, Travis.

55:17

Thanks for creating this space and em holding it for people.

55:21

Thank you for coming on the show.

55:22

I've enjoyed our conversation.

55:26

And thank you to all those that are listening.

55:28

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55:32

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55:38

And thanks again for listening.

55:40

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