The Hidden Mental Health Crisis in Young Adults No One Talks About

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Hello, welcome to Overcome with Travis White.

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This is a place for you to share your mental health stories.

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Tonight's guest, we are speaking with Joanna Lilly.

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She is a therapeutic consultant and specializes in helping young adults.

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Joanna, welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me, Travis.

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Pleasure's all mine.

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I think we're going to have a great conversation.

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So without wasting more time, I'm just going to hand the microphone over to you and have

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you tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Okay, I will collect myself as best as possible.

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think that there's a spotlight for me in the work that I do with young adults as it

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relates to my own young adult experience and that has to do with...

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a pretty significant amount of anxiety and not actually understanding how anxiety was

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harming me, right?

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And I was also just kind of like medicating in ways that felt like it was shutting my

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brain off, but like I just never was able to turn off.

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I was constantly in a state of what's next, where am I going?

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Like kind of looking outward to measure myself up compared to other people.

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I was also transient enough in employment where I did not have consistency, literally, in

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jobs and living in certain areas.

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And so I never had, literally for five years after I graduated from undergrad, I just

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worked seasonally.

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I was all over the place, truly all over the map.

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And in those moves, and because I was constantly on the go, I never had the opportunity to

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actually have somebody stop and say, hey, Joanna, literally shaking you by the shoulders,

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dude, you just need to slow down.

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You need to speak with a therapist, you need to do some breathing exercises, you need to

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have a anti-anxiety medication, or the combination of the lot.

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just kind of took me at face value and it took me a really long time to realize, A, not

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only was it not sustainable, but it like really did some pretty serious damage to, I

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shouldn't say damage, it did enough to organs in my body that it took future functional

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medicine practices to like totally start to like recalibrate and get me to a place.

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Like right now I'm mellow.

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You know, even five years ago, I was still in like just a wild, like, how the heck did I

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get here?

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How do I unwind kind of situation?

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And it was as a young adult, it was about this like existential, who am I?

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Where am I going?

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Where am

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headed and then in my early 30s it was I launched this business now I've got a hustle to

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make it like happen and be successful and I just realized too in all of this like the

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business too that I operate is helping other people and so it just kind of hit me real

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hard that some point it was just like I have to actually practice what I preach right

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that's really what it comes down to so

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Yeah, it took a lot of work, but it was like in hindsight, it was messy.

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And I think because of that, I have so much empathy for the young adults I work with right

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now, who when I see them and they're panicking or their anxiety is just flooding them and

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they don't know where to start or even like where to begin or how to get help or they

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can't literally if they hold a mirror up to their face, like they don't see that like how

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they're operating is not sustainable or healthy.

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Again, I just have extreme empathy for the young adults I'm working with.

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And I feel like that's such a hard period of life.

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Like it's so hard.

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You know, it's like that transition from high school to college.

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You're still really young, but it's like you're starting to question a lot of things.

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Most of the time you're just getting away from your parents for the first time.

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So it's almost like you're trying to figure yourself out.

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Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Well, they say it's the, I think, three I's, right?

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It's independence, identity, and intimacy, which is supposed to just kind of be another I

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that falls in the space of relationships, right?

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Who do you want to be with, both romantically and who are your people now that you're

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outside of the home?

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And I think what you're talking about, too, is just like...

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belief systems.

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For me, my belief system was I don't tell people that I'm struggling.

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Like even, and it's just ironic too, because I grew up in a family with like mental health

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providers, but for whatever reason, culturally, it was just like, Joanna, get your shit

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together.

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Like you got this.

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Like this is not an issue.

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But that belief system was so ingrained in me that I could not see.

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Like, I mean, I was basically like cutting off my nose, despite my face.

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as a young adult, as I'm launching into my own path, but not realizing that basically the

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thing that fueled me was my anxiety.

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Yeah, it's that's kind of cool because you almost figured out the superpower that your

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anxiety brings and have been using it.

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I love to hear stories like that.

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yeah, yeah, because it's not like, let me be clear.

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It's not like my anxiety went away.

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I just figured out how for a very long time, it was, it was not, I was not harnessing it

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like a superpower.

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I was letting it run my life and I was constantly playing catch up.

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I was constantly tired.

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I was constantly dreading things and it took me like,

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being very, very intentional, seeking help, not just from like one provider, but for

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multiple providers, right?

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Seeing a therapist seeking, you know, like doing chiropractic work.

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I was also seeing an acupuncturist.

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I also did functional medicine.

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just like, clearly I have some interest in Eastern, Western medicine type philosophies,

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but it was just like, it's in my body, right?

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It's not just like, let me go take a med or also like do talk therapy.

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was like, I have to literally recalibrate where my

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body is and bring my nervous system back down.

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Yeah.

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And I don't think that's, that's one thing, the important thing that I don't think people

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really understand.

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Cause I think a lot of people have this misconception that mental health is just mental

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health, but no, it's, it's all integrated.

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And I've been gone through a lot of the, the learning type stuff with functional medicine

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in the last year.

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Uh, so, and it's hands down one the best things I've ever done.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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It's like the best gift we can give ourselves.

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It only took us into like older adulthood, not emerging adulthood.

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So what are the most common mental health challenges you see in young adults during this

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basically transition phase?

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Yeah, great question.

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I would say that a lack of purpose or direction is huge.

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oftentimes that, like the fear, right, that exists with that adriftness is what fuels a

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lot of the mental health stuff, right?

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So it's like this, all of a sudden we aren't anchored to any type of path, any type of

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like interest or purpose, then that's where anxiety can breed.

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Like I'm I don't even know, you know, this is the like flooded like I don't even know

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where to start and even if I did know where to start There's so many options.

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What if I pick the wrong path, right?

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So just like goes down this really really dangerous kind of irrational thought pattern or

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kind of like path

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The other hand, what I also see too is just depression because there is such significant,

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and this is kind of the double-edged sword of access to technology where we have so many

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people that are seeing all of the devastation in the world, right?

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Politics, war, the economy, the environment, like.

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the divisiveness that exists in all areas, I'm getting a lot of this like existential

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dread.

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What's the point, right?

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If it's not the person that's like, my gosh, I have to do something, but I don't know what

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to do.

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On the other hand, it's like, know, F it.

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I'm just gonna hang in the basement and smoke some weed and just like numb myself and hope

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that like tomorrow, either I don't wake up or tomorrow won't be as bad.

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Yeah.

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And it's, I feel like it's such a different world than what I grew up in.

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So I'm hitting the big four zero, the big 40 and Hey, so I'm like really nervous about it

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for some reason, but I just look back to the time.

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Like I was that age and it was like, I didn't, we didn't have like the social media to

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compare ourselves.

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The internet wasn't like readily available.

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was beginning to be the, to that point.

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Yeah.

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but it plays such a huge role and I think it's worse off for the younger generation.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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mean, especially right now, know, young adults that are like, when I say young adults, I'm

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talking about 18 year olds right now.

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And 18 year olds were born in 2004, right?

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Am I doing my math right?

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I don't actually remember.

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Okay, good.

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if for maybe, maybe not, maybe it even earlier, maybe it's, I don't know.

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Anyways, gosh, I'm going to be really embarrassed if my math is wrong, but you know what?

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I'm just gonna, I'm gonna,

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right.

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own it because I'm so tired and I really don't care.

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All I can say is, for certainty, I was already out of high school by the time these young

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people were even born.

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And so I'm...

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even though I look younger than I really am, and that's a uh great point of connection

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with the young adults I work with, I do have a distinct understanding of their

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development, their adolescence was vastly different than mine.

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If social media was a thing when I was a teen, I can only imagine the chaos that would

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have ensued, right?

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The social tensions, the just...

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I mean, the body dysmorphia that like shows up because you're constantly seeing yourself

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or seeing others and then comparing your body.

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I mean, there's just, there's a lot.

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And I just have such strong, you know, again, empathy for what it is that young adults

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right now are having to go through to find themselves to launch independently in a world

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where it feels like it's impossible.

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Yeah, I love it.

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it's you lived feeling anxious.

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So you've been there.

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So it's even better.

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Yeah.

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So next question for you though is how can parents tell the difference between normal

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adjustment stress like versus something more serious?

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Yeah, think the, I mean, first and foremost, that the like baseline is dependent on the

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knowledge and relationship that a parent has with their young adult.

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So like, I would love to just give a generic answer, but then I want to like front load,

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hey, if you don't have an open relationship with your young adult, it's really easy to

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make assumptions or it's easy to...

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Assume everything like the assumption could be everything's fine, right or it could be my

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gosh You know, like I see you struggling and the parent jumps into like major like

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solution focused or fix-it mode Which again, I see all of those things as a parent.

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What's normal is homesickness, right?

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that separation and that goes both ways.

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For a parent, all of a sudden your role is also like, oh my gosh, I'm not needed as much

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as I used to be.

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okay, now I gotta give you the space to kind of figure it out.

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And I feel really uncomfortable not knowing where you are, which is why sometimes the

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separation of like, no, you can't keep tracking like life 360 on your child's phone.

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Like you gotta give them the space to like build their own experiences and trust that

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they'll be able to survive.

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But where I get concerned is if, as a parent, you notice significant differences in their

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level of functioning.

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So that could be communication, right?

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Having somebody that used to be bubbly and overly communicative and wanting to be involved

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to all of a sudden no communication, not just like,

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I'm not initiating, but not even responding.

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Like parents that are like, I sent you a text to check in and I haven't heard from you for

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two weeks.

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That's not normal.

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I would use that like a spidey sense, right?

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Going off of like, Ooh, we should probably check in.

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Or somebody that's making comments that feel like really like passively suicidal even like

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the world would be better off without me.

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or like, gosh, I just wish that, you know, I wasn't here.

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It make things easier.

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If that's not normal.

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lean into that and ask more questions.

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Or, I mean, again, just pay attention to behaviors, right?

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Are they isolating?

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Are they numbing by all of a sudden, like going out to the bars every night?

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Are they completely retreated?

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they, you know, just basically what you're looking for is are their behaviors extreme

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enough where it feels like it's destructive in some capacity, right?

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Isolating to the point of like extreme concern or like, you know, going out and partying

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and like

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self-sabotaging in ways that also feel equally as destructive.

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So for me, what's normal is struggling, right?

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Like finding your friends, losing a job, having a breakup, being sad.

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Like that stuff is normal.

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It's everything else that just like really is on the fringe that feels extreme.

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That's where as a parent I would be concerned.

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Yeah, and I think that's a great thing that you pointed out because as you know, you make

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that move out of your home environment.

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There are going to be struggles like very much so.

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Yeah.

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Well, and Travis, don't want to exclude the young adults that still live at home with

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their parents, because that's actually a common thing too.

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But if you're like, yeah, if you have your, if your child, like, let's say your young

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adult never left, right?

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Pay attention to their behaviors, because if they continuously and now all of a sudden are

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sleeping, like their sleep cycle has completely reversed because they're up gaming all

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night.

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They don't come out and shower.

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They aren't doing their laundry.

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They're only eating because you make sure that they're fed.

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Like that is an extreme.

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And I would be worried as a parent because that's going to require some pretty substantial

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behavior changes and like a routine switch, which, you know, when we think about certain

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things like, you know, technology or anything that can be potentially addictive, you just

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want to pay attention to that because it can be a real slippery slope.

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yes, for sure.

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And speaking of technology, like I see even with my kids at a young age, I'm just like,

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it's crazy.

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Like the shows and all the colors and stuff, like they want to watch it constantly.

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I'm like, Oh, we're always like, okay, guys, that's, that's enough.

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Like we're going to be done with TV for the next few days.

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Yeah.

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And then they might be like upset about it, right?

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No, dad, don't take it away.

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I wasn't done.

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Or like even scarier as a parent, if you're like trying to have a conversation with them

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and they are so locked in on what it is that they're watching, that they're not even like

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responding to you.

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Like that's always like, you know, your eyes get real big.

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it drives it drives me bat shit crazy.

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We'll put it that way Yeah, it's like like I know you're six and you only pick up like

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Directions and like one in 25 things, but it's Just drives me nuts and that's where that's

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where I find myself That's where my anxiety comes in and levels up.

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So I find myself like

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taking a step back, breathing or you know, doing the what is it, 5-4-3-2-1 method, that

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helps me a ton so.

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Yeah.

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So what conversations should parents be having with young adults before they go off to

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college and kind of, even if they're not going to college, maybe they're just starting

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their career, whatever it is they're doing.

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I think what I always love about this is to say the path to hell is paved with good

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intentions.

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So as a parent, you could have the best of intentions with, we're gonna have this

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conversation on this day at this time, and I'm gonna help make sure that you're continuing

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to move forward in your life.

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I think it's important as a parent, and this is like my best piece of advice is, you could

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be saying the best thing, you could be saying the right thing, you could be suggesting

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like the absolute best path for them to pursue, but because it's coming from you as a

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parent.

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it may be falling on deaf ears entirely, right?

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Like it just, like the same exact suggestion, the same exact like words, verbatim coming

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from somebody that's a non-familial member is like sometimes all of a sudden like, huh.

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I hadn't thought about that.

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Yeah, that sounds like a great idea.

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So really what I'm suggesting is as a parent, the best thing that you can do is make sure

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that your young adult has some sort of neutral party, like an objective professional, like

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a life coach, a mentor, somebody.

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mean, therapists work too, but not every therapist is the same.

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So I want to be really careful about that.

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And because we're not necessarily talking about therapy per se, but just having someone.

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to be able to process and also get some forward facing support and directions, right?

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Like, okay, cool, you wanna be a mechanic.

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What steps do you need to take to do that, right?

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If I was a parent and I was suggesting to my kid like, hey, I did some research, I found

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these like programs, my kid would slam, you know.

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the door in my face, like, no, I'm not gonna listen to you.

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But the second they have a mentor or a life coach that says, let's sit down and actually

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do a quick search of like what programs are nearby and let's look at like what the

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requirements are for you to apply and let's pick a place for you to actually fill out the

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application.

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Like not hard, really not hard.

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Like we're removing the resistance if you give them like a neutral party to work with.

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It is crazy to me that you as a parent can have that conversation.

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It just doesn't click.

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And then somebody else is like, they're like, yeah, that sounds great.

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I said the same thing.

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This is great.

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I actually I think I remember some things like that growing up where somebody else told me

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and they're like.

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And it's like, Travis, I told you that a long time ago.

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Well, I guess I didn't listen.

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Yep.

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yeah

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Yeah, I'm sure I had plenty of those moments.

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Like I just felt like my auto response for my parents growing up was no.

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Honestly, it was probably still no even until I like almost hit 40.

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Like this is my life, I got this.

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But if I had anybody else suggest similarly what they were suggesting, like, hey Joanna,

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take care of yourself or hey Joanna, maybe don't move there.

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Hey Joanna, you shouldn't be in that relationship.

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Like if it was coming from my parents, I was not hearing it.

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So think about that, like, especially when we're talking about the importance of like how

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vulnerable and impressionable and also heightened in this like phase of life development,

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because we also still have a fully non-developed brain for at least another like seven

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years.

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So think about how impressionable they can be if you find like a great coach or you find a

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great mentor, like it could be life changing for them because it's not an if, but when

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they hit some sort of adverse

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now they have somebody that they can trust and obviously I'm not saying that your your

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kids not gonna go back and like ask for support when you know like if they're licking

20:02

wounds or something like that right if they have some sort of like heartbreak but you want

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to make sure that they have somebody else that can also be there for them and support them

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moving forward especially during this period of time.

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Yeah, I absolutely love it because I've always said on this show that having people in

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your corner, a community is huge.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So during this phase of life, somebody who has already had a history of mental health

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issues, how do you handle that and, you know, as they're getting their independence and

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finding themselves?

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I think that's where, you know, I still think a mentor or a coach is important because

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it's very action oriented and forward facing and like, what do we need to do moving

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forward?

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But if there's any type of preexisting mental health concerns, I mean, obviously we're

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talking, there's a spectrum of what it is.

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And we've really up until this point only talked so much about like mood disorders or

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anxiety based disorders, which we know from a like Western medicine perspective, like with

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the right therapy.

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like the right therapeutic modality at the frequency that's necessary in an honest

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therapeutic relationship, maybe coupled with medication.

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I said maybe because again it depends on the person.

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Like sometimes that's all they need.

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Sometimes they need more.

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Sometimes they need groups.

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Sometimes they need like more intensive, like short bursts of kind of clinical support.

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Sometimes they need respite, which could look like actually living in some sort of

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supportive housing.

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Like I'm not necessarily suggesting a residential treatment, but like for somebody that is

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launching into adulthood.

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In fact, actually, this is a perfect example.

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I get families all the time that will kind of come to me and they're like, Hey, so we went

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through the college process.

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You know, our young adult went to insert a name of

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any school.

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They lasted two months, completely panicked, withdrew, and now we're hitting the reset.

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We do want to explore college.

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We have no idea where they're going to go.

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They definitely don't want to go back to the same school.

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Oftentimes it's just because they're embarrassed of like, however they left, right?

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Like they didn't say goodbye to the very few friends that they had.

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And there's just like so much embarrassment about, how do I even like reintroduce myself?

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It's better for me to just have a clean slate go somewhere else.

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I don't do college consulting, but what I tell people is that I am college informed and I

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used to work in higher education.

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So at least I have like the college capital of like what resources exists on campus and

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what's actually sustainable for somebody that just needs these like short kind of like

22:39

supportive experiences or resources and then also who needs a team off campus.

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And so what I'm referencing is for that example of the young adult who went off to school

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and it's like, my gosh, we're gonna hit the reset.

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Instead of going through the college application process again to find a different school

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and then to do research of like what resources exist around, it's actually kind of the

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reverse order of let's find you a peer community of young adults that happen to be in like

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a micro community where they are getting mental health services, right?

23:11

Outpatient therapy, maybe seeing a psychiatrist, definitely getting a lot of coaching,

23:11

some sort of academic support.

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And then when they're in this little hub, right, that's when we look kind of outside in

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the periphery of, what colleges are nearby where we can dip our toe back into a higher ed

23:30

setting to get some success on a college campus and then build the like momentum of like

23:30

eventually being in a place where, okay, now I can go off to college.

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Now I can go through the full like college application process again or transfer process,

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find a school, be a full-time student and also the young adult is the

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driving what resources they need to be successful with those pre-existing mental health

23:48

conditions.

23:56

It's very cool.

23:56

it's, it's how often are you seeing like this reset happen?

24:03

I mean, can I tell you candidly that I've been doing this business for 10 years and a

24:03

majority of my business is like this client.

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I work with 12 young adults at a time, not all like starting at once, but like I will max

24:12

my caseload at 12 and I only work with them for three months.

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So if I'm working with somewhere between like say 36 to 48 clients a year,

24:30

and a majority of those are this exact scenario, I think the answer right there is it's a

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shitload.

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And I like my caseload is such a small like sample of the larger pool that exists.

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mean, really, I worked in higher ed and I saw at two institutions, I worked at two

24:46

different schools, I saw the same epidemic that was taking place, which was you got a

24:57

bunch of students that come on campus, maybe eight,

25:01

% of them will actually stay for the next year.

25:04

It's actually like closer to 75 nowadays.

25:07

And then the larger statistic is that those that actually come back the next year, it

25:07

drops down to somewhere between 40 and 60 % will actually stay the course and graduate

25:19

within, I think now the actual range that they use is six years.

25:24

Not like, hey, you're gonna get your degree in six years, but it's just like that's the

25:29

of time that colleges are actually doing their measurements now.

25:33

It's abysmal, Travis!

25:36

It's crazy!

25:38

And I'm trying to think back of when I was at age, because I remember I didn't really need

25:38

a reset, but I remember like just loving that I was away from home, even though I only

25:49

lived.

25:49

I went to my first college.

25:51

went to a small junior college in the middle in central Utah.

25:56

And I was only like 10 minutes away from where I grew up.

25:59

So it's not like my family was too far away, but I could still.

26:02

do what I wanted.

26:04

So I stopped going to classes and ended up failing a lot.

26:08

But I didn't feel, I don't feel like I really needed the reset.

26:11

was just like, I'm doing what I want.

26:13

I'm doing what I want.

26:15

Yeah.

26:16

Well, and that reset for me sometimes looks like somebody made it all the way through to

26:16

like a full semester or even two semesters and they failed, right?

26:25

Like they actually went through the process.

26:27

And oftentimes the lens there is it's less about anxiety or, you know, like depression.

26:35

Sometimes it is obviously if you're failing classes, like we can assume that part of that

26:35

might just be like you're laying in bed.

26:41

You're not even going to class.

26:42

Sometimes it's they're like

26:44

areas of wellness, like socially, they are knocking it out of the park because they're

26:44

having so much fun.

26:50

It's like, yeah, I'm like living it up and, you know, like on campus and it's like school,

26:50

wait, what I have to like show up and go to class and do work.

26:58

Like that's also sometimes where those, the scales are tipped.

27:03

And that's also somebody that I would end up working with because at the end of the day,

27:03

there's actually a mental health component to it.

27:09

If you've

27:10

It almost feels a little bit like being an ostrich with your head in the sand of like, if

27:10

I just ignore the fact that I've failed my classes, like.

27:20

I'll still be okay.

27:21

Like I guess I could still be a student.

27:23

Meanwhile, they're getting outreach from the university.

27:25

They've gotten letters that say, hey, by the way, if you don't get a certain GPA this

27:25

semester, like you're not only on academic probation, but you're also you're actually

27:33

suspended.

27:33

You're dismissed.

27:34

You are let go.

27:35

You cannot come back until you have taken 12 or 15 credits at another school and actually

27:35

demonstrated that you can be.

27:43

quote unquote successful, then we'll reconsider having you come back.

27:46

But by the way, when you come back, you're still gonna be on probation.

27:48

So it's just like, talk about shame.

27:51

That's really what this is.

27:52

They're thinking traps.

27:53

It's not necessarily mental health specific.

27:55

It's just, it's kind of like the adjustment of shifting from adolescent mindset to an

27:55

actual like adult mindset where magical thinking is no more, does not serve us.

28:06

And same with just being.

28:09

having natural consequences kind of play out.

28:11

But there's a lot of shame and sometimes that comes across too as it can manifest into

28:11

depression.

28:18

so like, great, I screwed up.

28:21

Now I failed.

28:22

I am a failure, right?

28:24

There needs to be a shift in doing some shame work there.

28:28

Yeah, I totally agree there.

28:31

And when it comes to these issues though, what's the most common mistake that families

28:31

make when reacting to a mental health crisis?

28:42

I think the, that's actually a great question because I think it really depends.

28:46

The one thing that I think is most beneficial for parents is if you...

28:52

And this might sound actually kind of cliche, but I'm still going to say it.

28:56

If you don't put your oxygen mask on in the crisis, like you cannot think straight.

29:02

Like emotionally, every decision that you are making has potential consequence because you

29:02

are not in your, you're not in the space to make a logical or rational decision.

29:13

You are just making a decision to like, you know, it's like survival essentially.

29:18

So

29:20

Put your oxygen mask on, which to me means literally take some breaths.

29:25

Also just like in your immediate circle, ask for help.

29:30

Who do you know?

29:31

Who can be a resource?

29:32

Because the other thing that's important to know as a parent is when your loved one is in

29:32

crisis or having like an actual mental health crisis, it is damn near impossible.

29:43

for a parent to step out of that emotional space.

29:47

So like, I just want to make sure that like, you have to have somebody that could be

29:47

neutral that can actually think logically and rationally for you to guide you and that

29:54

could be ask, you know, ask your friends, who do they know, speak with a therapist, like

29:54

ask, don't just jump.

30:02

or do what one person tells you to do.

30:05

Actually make sure you have an opportunity to like vet, make a decision and like make sure

30:05

that the plan is actually sound.

30:13

Love it.

30:15

Absolutely love it.

30:16

Let's see.

30:19

Well, I had a thought.

30:20

It kind of just disappeared.

30:21

Sorry.

30:23

It wanted to come out, but so when is it appropriate to you kind of answered this in a

30:23

way.

30:28

When is it appropriate to consider a leave of absence or take a different path?

30:36

It's always okay.

30:37

It's always a good time to take a different path.

30:41

Like there's never a bad time to do that.

30:44

And I don't really speak in absolutes.

30:46

So the fact that I just made that like an absolute is impressive.

30:50

There's no wrong time.

30:53

There's no wrong answer.

30:55

It's always like, you're just making a decision.

30:57

And if now's the time to do it, then we're pursuing that path.

31:02

And if you come to another fork in the road, again,

31:05

there are no mistakes, they're just choices.

31:08

And then we are living with kind of the direction in which those choices are taking us,

31:08

because we're learning, right?

31:15

We are learning as we are literally like growing and going.

31:21

taking a leave of absence.

31:23

mean, just more, this is like more of a financially driven response.

31:28

If your child is struggling on a college campus and you know when the drop deadlines are

31:28

for some sort of financial like recoupment as a parent, especially if you are a part of

31:40

like paying for their collegiate experience, then you pay attention to that because your

31:40

young adult is not going to be paying attention to that.

31:48

can almost guarantee that as well.

31:50

See look here I am talking an absolute

31:51

again, I can almost guarantee that your child is not paying attention to the drop

31:51

deadlines.

31:56

Again, if we're thinking about that ostrich with the head in the sand, they sure as hell

31:56

are not thinking about deadlines for drop dates and how that corresponds with certain

32:06

percentages for refund for tuition.

32:09

Yep, absolutely not.

32:11

Like I said, I failed a semester and that that letter that was for me that said, oh, you

32:11

need to get your grades back up.

32:20

You're on academic probation.

32:23

It went to my house and my mom opened it.

32:26

She's like, can you explain this?

32:29

I was like, uh, yeah, I stopped going to classes and I didn't withdraw, which I should

32:29

have done.

32:36

She's like, you just get it together.

32:40

So that was the end of the conversation, but yeah.

32:45

you get it together, right?

32:47

Or did you have another semester where you learned the hard way?

32:51

I honestly got it together for the most part later on.

32:56

It took me years, due to some, I had a couple of kind of weird gap years, like as I went

32:56

to school because of medical problems.

33:04

So there was a couple of classes I failed and it wasn't lack of me trying.

33:08

was the classes were tough.

33:12

And so, but it's, but I eventually got it together because in high school, it's always

33:12

like a.

33:19

3.8, 4.0 student.

33:21

When I got to college, it changed a little bit because it was like, I just don't care.

33:25

I...

33:26

Yeah.

33:27

So I think though, speaking of gap years, I think they can be powerful.

33:34

Like they really can be, especially like if it's to, you know, take control of your mental

33:34

health, take control of medical health, like whatever it is, like maybe it's just finding

33:44

your path to move forward.

33:46

Yeah.

33:47

Yeah.

33:47

I mean, I will 100 % back that and support it.

33:53

Before COVID, I used to say, college isn't going anywhere.

33:57

And then it kind of like, I had to insert my foot in mouth because clearly COVID

33:57

spotlighted how poorly some colleges and universities were actually doing financially.

34:06

Fortunately, most have course corrected.

34:09

And so I feel like I can go back to that statement and feeling like it still rings true.

34:15

What's more important in all of this is that

34:17

post-secondary education in general is not going anywhere.

34:22

What matters is somebody being okay.

34:26

Like having their health, and not just mental health, like whole health, having their

34:26

health managed because at the end of the day, if you're not okay, physically, mentally,

34:36

emotionally, spiritually, you name it,

34:39

You cannot show up in a classroom and be expected to like actually function, not just as a

34:39

student that's responding in class and following through, but it's like just executive

34:50

functioning in general.

34:51

Can you initiate your homework assignments?

34:54

Can you actually manage your time?

34:55

Can you complete like do the task completions?

34:58

Are you also able to like regulate your emotions and all of the chaos that's going on?

35:03

Like, are you organized?

35:05

If you are not okay, all of that stuff,

35:09

really hard to manage.

35:11

And so sometimes I think the other thing, and I'll just say this, and then I want you to

35:11

like, please respond, hopefully you're feeling the same, is that sometimes parents just

35:19

don't get it.

35:20

And a part of that is because their belief system might be, you just push through, okay?

35:26

All you have to do is just like go to school or just get your schoolwork done.

35:29

Why is this so hard?

35:31

And sometimes that that clash is because parents still don't fully understand what,

35:38

mental health looks like for young adults.

35:40

Again, it's a difference in generations or just a difference in how they believe that

35:40

mental health can be a barrier or a hurdle for young adults.

35:50

And it really does require certain support in order to be able to show up as a student on

35:50

campus.

35:57

Yes, very, very well said because then I can have a test.

36:00

I want to go have, I have a couple of thoughts here.

36:03

First of all, this age group that you were speaking of 18 to 29 or whatever, like it's

36:03

very important to be able to get your crap together at this age because the safety codes

36:17

true in the workforce.

36:19

Like if you're like having mental challenges, medical, whatever it is, and you don't show

36:19

up like.

36:26

that could be loss of a job.

36:27

Like it's gonna happen.

36:30

For me, was, there was a time period where I was having these medical problems and with

36:30

medical problems, my mental health always declines.

36:40

It's almost hand in hand.

36:42

But so there was this time where I couldn't hold down a job and I was basically moving

36:42

from job to job because it was...

36:50

I was embarrassed that somebody was going to see me like, so I have seizures.

36:53

I was embarrassed.

36:54

Somebody was going to see me have a seizure.

36:56

There was times where jobs I got where I remember one where I had a seizure in the

36:56

bathroom and nobody knew.

37:02

And after that, I just left.

37:05

I never went back.

37:06

that stuff like that happened all the time because I, had to get over my embarrassment.

37:11

And like, I think the same holds true.

37:14

Like it, the

37:16

this transition phase that we're talking about is if you feel dumb about it, don't like

37:16

there's somebody else around you.

37:23

guarantee it.

37:24

This going through the same stuff.

37:26

Yeah.

37:28

And that's one of those things too, Travis, that like you and I can give that advice and

37:28

until it's like really owned and understood, which sometimes when we're talking about

37:39

this, you know, still not fully formed brain, it's hard to not think like that's another

37:39

thinking kind of pattern too, is like assuming that other people are judging you or

37:51

thinking certain things about you, which is again, another, it's another cognitive trap of

37:51

like,

37:59

Nobody's freaking paying attention to you, right?

38:02

I mean, you and I can say that now, like jokes aside, but when you're a young adult and

38:02

you're in the moment, like it is terrifying.

38:09

It's terrifying to the point where you're so embarrassed.

38:11

So you're like, I'm just going to leave and I'm not even going to say goodbye.

38:15

I'm not coming back.

38:16

I just have to move on.

38:17

I'm closing this chapter and like move forward.

38:19

And that's like a, that's a real lived experience for a lot of young adults right now.

38:24

Yeah, for sure.

38:26

And the other, the other point I wanted to touch base on too, that I can totally relate to

38:26

is, you spoke about like parents not understanding.

38:34

And it's to me, I think it's a generational thing a lot of times.

38:39

And I also think that it could be that, there's certain aspects of mental health we don't

38:39

talk a lot about because it's so it's portrayed so poorly that, you know, you're.

38:50

you're depressed, well, it's just a phase you'll get over it.

38:53

And it's no, it's not yet.

38:56

And I'm talking, you know, different than a bad hair day, because we all have bad hair

38:56

days.

39:00

And if you don't, you're full of shit.

39:03

You're lying to yourself.

39:05

Yeah, exactly.

39:07

But like, I remember like me personally growing up, wasn't talked about a lot.

39:13

Mental health wasn't a thing.

39:15

And so I had to figure out a lot of this by myself.

39:20

Yeah, yeah, and that's, mean, that's the like, the beautiful yet double edged sword of

39:20

normalizing mental health is now we have this generation of younger people that really

39:30

lean into it, right?

39:31

Like they're owning it.

39:33

Some almost on the extreme end of like, well, wait, hold on.

39:36

Like, yes, you might have anxiety, but like, that's not gonna stop you from being able to

39:36

like still experience life and need to like live independently and do things that are, you

39:46

know.

39:46

mundane, right?

39:47

Like you still have to do that because we all do.

39:50

But what it has created now is a like a there's a there's a essentially like a crevasse

39:50

between their parents and them because their parents are kind of on the tail end of like

40:04

again, pick yourself up by the bootstraps, right?

40:06

Like figure it out.

40:08

The only people that, you know, had any type of more like disclosures about any type of

40:08

mental health struggles, it was because it was on the extreme end, right?

40:18

Like psychotic breaks or anything like that where it's like, that's even like visible,

40:18

right?

40:23

Sometimes we can see how that has actually created some sort of shift within you.

40:29

Anyways, all I'm getting at is that the crevasse, the divide is very significant.

40:36

We're still trying to bridge that gap as much as possible by educating parents on how

40:36

sometimes what they say and how they say it.

40:46

Obviously, we can't control how somebody reacts, but certainly there will still be a

40:46

belief and there will be a behavior and a reaction out of it.

40:54

And so it's like, well, if you are changing what you can, what you can change, which is

40:54

what you say and how you say it, it will have a ripple effect, which will potentially be

41:05

more positive.

41:06

And essentially that bridge is just empathy.

41:10

We're trying to bring in empathy and curiosity and support rather than

41:15

solutions, abruptness, and just like a lack of interest or education.

41:20

very well said.

41:22

So with that aspect, like how can parents support their student or their young adult

41:22

without becoming over involved?

41:31

I love that you asked this question because literally within the last like week I have

41:31

really

41:38

I'll start by saying it's not me.

41:39

It's not me.

41:42

I am not it.

41:43

Because I just still love and I always will love working with young adults.

41:47

Like that's why I do what I do because I have this relationship with a 18, 19, 22 year

41:47

old, know, whatever.

41:54

And it's like, I can have an adult conversation.

41:56

But when I'm having this conversation with you, you still present childlike in a lot of

41:56

the vulnerabilities, a lot of the concerns, a lot of the fears.

42:05

And so there's just like a tenderness that exists.

42:07

and I can I can hold that and I like working with that young person and helping them feel

42:07

empowered and like decisive and proud.

42:15

Meanwhile I can't do that and also turn to parent and say hey here's what you need to do

42:15

right because it just completely contradicts this piece of like rapport and autonomy and

42:26

agency that I'm like supporting with the young adult.

42:29

So there are

42:32

amazing parent coaches that exist out there.

42:36

And it is not meant to be a professional that is teaching you how to parent.

42:40

I want to be really clear.

42:41

A lot of their work actually is educating parents on brain science.

42:47

nervous systems, again, communication or family dynamics.

42:51

mean, a lot of it is just education and that awareness and the coaching that exists there

42:51

because A, it's not a therapist, so it's non-threatening.

43:00

It's just somebody who is helping a parent.

43:02

So if you're the parent who says, I need to figure out how to fix my kid, right?

43:07

Or I need to like, you know, I need them to do X, Y, Z.

43:10

It's like, you do understand that if you seek out finding the thing that's going to help

43:10

that

43:16

them kind of going back to our previous conversation, but they're not going to respond.

43:21

But if you as a parent work with somebody and get curious about, I wonder why every time I

43:21

do and say, you know, an example of something, here's this dynamic that

43:36

I see this reaction play out with my child.

43:39

When my child reacts this way, then I respond this way.

43:42

And here we are in this constant looped pattern.

43:46

So if you are a parent and you're getting curious, how do I help my child?

43:50

The answer really is how do you help yourself with getting educated, becoming aware, and

43:50

making your own just subtle changes because it really can be a ripple.

44:02

in a very large pond which impacts not just you as a parent and your relationship with

44:02

your young adult, but it does impact your young adult.

44:10

Yeah.

44:11

And you brought up something that I'm m sure you might have a different opinion on this,

44:11

but I feel like a lot of times, so you're speaking of how the parent wants to fix their

44:21

child.

44:21

And which I can see it being true because being a parent myself, I always want to fix my

44:21

child.

44:26

But at some point I feel like, you know, so I'm kind of stepping away from the parent role

44:26

for a minute.

44:32

And as a person that has struggled with anxiety and depression.

44:37

At some point, like I feel like the person struggling needs to be the one to kind of

44:37

choose their path and basically admit that they have a problem.

44:48

Because if it was just my mom saying like, well, we're going to push you to do this,

44:48

you're going to do this, or we're going to try this.

44:56

I'd probably tell her to go to hell.

44:59

Because I want to pick my own path.

45:02

At some point in my life, I didn't admit that I was...

45:05

struggling with these mental health issues and until that day came I wasn't willing to get

45:05

the help that I needed to move forward.

45:13

Yeah.

45:14

Yeah.

45:15

I mean, that's actually, it brings up another good point, which is over the years, I've

45:15

learned that in order for me in my role as a consultant, again, very, very small pool of

45:26

people that I'm working with, I meet with the parents first, and then it's all with great

45:26

intentions.

45:31

Hey, okay, here's what's going on.

45:33

You're going to work with my young adult.

45:35

Here's all the things that like need to happen.

45:37

And then I meet with the young adult and the young adult's like, I don't need you.

45:41

I don't need to change.

45:42

Like, I'm good.

45:44

My parents are the ones that are like panicking.

45:47

And so you are spot on.

45:49

You are absolutely spot on.

45:51

And that's another reason why it's beneficial as a parent.

45:54

If you're focused on how do I help my child.

45:57

The best thing that you can do for yourself is work with a coach for yourself because if

45:57

you can get that support, it will in fact help your child.

46:07

It's gonna help the relationship that you have with your child.

46:10

It's gonna help the dynamic in the family and it's probably gonna give your child the

46:10

space for them to help themselves.

46:18

Yeah, and I do have a question.

46:20

Let me know like your thoughts.

46:22

You just made me think of something else.

46:24

Do you ever feel like maybe the child or the young adult needs to kind of fall on their

46:24

face to hit rock bottom before they can get the help they need?

46:37

Yes.

46:38

I mean, I think the it's, well, how do I answer this?

46:41

I think everybody needs skinned knees, right?

46:44

That's what it comes down to.

46:45

Like you have to skin your knees in order to understand that like, okay, that hurts.

46:49

I don't want to do that.

46:50

What do I do differently next time?

46:51

So I don't skin my knees, but it just builds grit.

46:54

It's resiliency.

46:56

All of that shit translates.

46:57

We need that in order to be able to function in all areas of life.

47:02

Because like I said earlier, adversity is not

47:05

does not like pick one socioeconomic group.

47:08

It's like, know, unrelenting.

47:10

It doesn't give a shit.

47:11

It's like, we're gonna have adversity.

47:13

You're gonna experience loss.

47:14

You're gonna experience grief.

47:16

You're gonna experience trauma.

47:17

You're gonna experience like all the hard things and you have to be able to work through

47:17

it.

47:21

In order to work through it, you have to have experience to know that you can work through

47:21

it.

47:26

And so the, the other added element to it to kind of specifically what you're talking

47:26

about is the fine line exists where if the life lessons that a young adult is making are

47:39

irreversible or will do such significant damage that a family, you know, if they don't

47:39

intervene, like you said, like hitting rock bottom, like to me, I'm like, look, somebody

47:49

gets a DUI.

47:50

That's a life lesson.

47:52

You owe a lot of money.

47:53

Now you have to take these classes.

47:55

maybe that will scare you straight into understanding that like you're making really

47:55

dangerous decisions and if you do it again you can harm yourself, harm other people,

48:03

there's gonna be more implications you know like whatever the case may be versus somebody

48:03

who literally is drinking every day and then actually like

48:14

I mean, when you think about all the physical ailments that come with like serious

48:14

alcoholism like cirrhosis or like throwing up blood or just like you're having you're

48:25

essentially Burning your body from the inside out right like if we don't stop you right

48:25

now.

48:31

You're literally going to drink yourself to death

48:34

that's an opportunity to say, we're not going to let you get there.

48:37

Like I don't want that rock bottom, but can I allow you the space to drive drunk?

48:43

Not that I'm encouraging it.

48:45

I don't know why I use this example.

48:46

So I apologize, but I'm just going to keep going with it at this point.

48:50

But it's like, okay, that happened to happen once.

48:53

Obviously we want to provide some sort of support.

48:55

that shit or anything worse doesn't happen again.

48:58

Same thing for mental health, right?

49:00

Like, okay, yes, you're struggling with depression.

49:02

Yes, you're struggling with anxiety.

49:04

we're going to let you get the support that you need or just struggle on your own.

49:08

If you're saying, no, I don't need help, no, I don't need help.

49:11

But when we notice that it's getting really bad, right?

49:15

Like anxiety then kind of somehow turning into almost OCD like ruminations or obsessions

49:15

or like, again, you're agoraphobic, right?

49:26

Like whatever the case may be, a family at some point will have to say like, we can't let

49:26

it get to this point.

49:31

So we're going to again, still

49:33

give you the space to figure it out on your own, but at some point we do have to

49:33

intervene.

49:37

Yeah, that makes sense.

49:40

That answers my question perfectly.

49:43

It's like, I'm trying to think, not too much of my family listens to my podcast, so I

49:43

think I'm safe.

49:53

But there's something going on with someone in that age group.

50:00

we're just hearing all sorts of stories.

50:01

And it's like the parent keeps saying like,

50:04

of well I don't know how to help this person.

50:06

It's like I think you need to let her fall a little bit more until she kind of realizes

50:06

like I need the help and I'm not saying like all the way but like a little bit more.

50:19

Yeah, yeah.

50:21

And again, I think that there's also parental anxiety that sometimes impedes that process.

50:26

Like, is the parent panicking and saying like, I feel uncomfortable watching this, you

50:26

know, like runaway train, essentially, like, is their is their experience right in this

50:40

moment and over like an overacting and or it's their own anxiety that's creating

50:47

more than is necessary and really like what's playing out is a normal young adult you know

50:47

like experience launching into adulthood maybe having some experiences that feel risky or

51:02

dangerous but it's not completely like there's there's no

51:07

you know, like hard lesson learned or at least hard lessons learned yet.

51:11

So it feels like it's an overreach from the parent.

51:14

And if they, if they kind of act out right now, then we're not giving that young adult the

51:14

space to have the learned life lessons.

51:23

Now,

51:25

Can we protect our kids?

51:26

Not entirely, right?

51:28

Like there are situations that we just can't protect them from, but if something extreme

51:28

does happen, then we just know that we have to lean in harder and the help that they're

51:36

gonna get later might just be for like a more intense like need of support rather than,

51:36

you know, something simple like just going to see a therapist.

51:45

I say that like in quotes, just going to see a therapist.

51:49

Yeah, that's perfectly said.

51:51

it's like coming from the parent side back to my parent mode here.

51:55

uh I always want to protect my kids, but at the same time, I have to, I'm learning slowly

51:55

of when to step back and be like, no, this is a conflict that you need to learn how to

52:06

deal with by yourself because I'm not always going to be there.

52:10

Yeah, yeah.

52:12

And good for you.

52:13

I mean, with your oldest only being six, like that's fantastic that you're actually able

52:13

to stop yourself in the moment.

52:21

I mean, it doesn't mean that you're not physically in the same space, right?

52:24

Like watching it go down, but you're still like, okay, I'm not gonna actually intervene.

52:29

This is an opportunity for my child to learn how to deal with this.

52:34

And the only thing that I'm struggling with right now is them trying to get my two oldest

52:34

clean up after themselves and realize that mom and dad are not the ones that do the

52:44

cleaning up.

52:46

They can do it too.

52:48

But that's...

52:51

Yes.

52:52

sure?

52:53

Really, it's like a test.

52:55

Like, what is your tolerance for dirtiness, right?

52:58

Like all the clothes on the floor or whatever.

53:01

It's just like, oh God, this is killing me.

53:03

But I've asked you several times to clean it up.

53:06

Yeah, I feel like this is a whole different conversation that we could have for for hours.

53:14

Yes, yes.

53:17

Uh, short story, sorry, I got side note here.

53:21

My.

53:22

They don't make messes.

53:23

I get that there's six and four or whatever, but it's like it's like, OK, mom, dad, your

53:23

turn to clean it up.

53:29

We made the mess.

53:29

It's like, no, that's not how it works.

53:31

I actually my four year old actually.

53:34

turned around, looked at me straight in the eye and said, but dad, you're our slave.

53:40

I was like, I am not.

53:42

That's how not how this works.

53:49

I was like, you have a lot of learning to do there, kid.

53:53

and in the same breath, you're also like, and you know me so well right now.

53:58

Like, how did this just get called out?

54:01

it was also a moment of like self-reflection because it's like why did I what did I do to

54:01

make them feel like that?

54:10

All right, sorry little anecdote there

54:13

it's a good point though, Travis, because I will say sometimes I get parents all the time

54:13

that are like, what do do?

54:18

And I'm like, the bigger question is, I wish that this question had been asked when your

54:18

kid was six.

54:28

Right?

54:29

When your kid was 12, when your kid was 16, because then we wouldn't be again, not

54:29

entirely true, but a majority of the cases that I work with, it's like, if there had been

54:41

an opportunity for more skinned knees, right?

54:45

More learned life lessons, more grit, more resiliency, less like over management and

54:45

support, like, like literally protected in a bubble.

54:55

And then when they go off to college and it's the prime

54:58

opportunity for again meeting new people, exploring new places like this is your belief

54:58

system or you're saying how I was raised what do want to take from that and apply for

55:11

myself as I'm putting myself out into the world meeting new people starting new

55:11

relationships and trying to figure out what my calling is.

55:19

mean like the combination of all that if you haven't had those experiences or those

55:19

moments where you skin your knees or where your parents said you gotta learn to pick

55:28

up like yourself, right?

55:30

You're six, you took the toys out, now it's time for you to put the toys away.

55:34

That translates to picking up after yourself when you're living alone or when you're

55:34

living in mutual spaces, like respect for others.

55:43

I mean, like there's so many life lessons that literally can be taught for elementary aged

55:43

young people.

55:51

Like there is no reason why when they come off to college or they're launching into

55:51

adulthood and we're like, we don't have any skills and I have zero grit.

56:00

Like, what am I supposed to do?

56:02

Parents come help me, right?

56:04

And then it just breeds, it breeds all of the like, I mean, really it's like.

56:11

It feels like kind of fruit flies just waiting for like the rotting fruit, which can be

56:11

like somebody that's impressionable and already was potentially struggling with some

56:22

mental health issues.

56:23

And now it's just like tenfold.

56:26

Yeah, for sure.

56:27

And it's, it's back to the skin knees.

56:29

Like you need to let your kids experience life.

56:34

Like you need to, like you said, let them be able to build up that grit and resilience.

56:42

If, if not, by the time they get to college, they're going to be pissing a lot of people

56:42

off.

56:48

Yep, they'll just have more pain points than more necessary, Like failed semesters or

56:48

failed relationships or like...

57:01

throw in money, I mean, like I kind of picture it sometimes of like the students that did

57:01

not do well academically.

57:06

I tell parents all the time, like, put a pile of money in a bonfire and just light it.

57:10

Like that's essentially what you just did.

57:13

And if you have that much money and you are like, this is not a problem, then.

57:18

I just like roll my eyes at you.

57:20

That's annoying.

57:21

That's not the majority.

57:23

you know, college is an investment.

57:25

Your child's future is an investment.

57:27

So we want to make sure that we're making wise investing decisions.

57:32

And sometimes that means like we need to take a step back and not like continue to push

57:32

this person down a path that's like setting them up for some, some pretty significant

57:43

fallouts.

57:43

Well, and also on to that point is if you're just throwing that money away, your kid keeps

57:43

failing and doing whatever.

57:51

What are you teaching that child?

57:54

Exactly.

57:55

Yeah.

57:56

Like it doesn't matter.

57:57

Doesn't matter.

58:00

We'll take care of you.

58:01

Yep, exactly.

58:03

So kind of just one last question and then a few follow up questions here is if a young

58:03

adult feels like they failed during this transition phase, what would you want them to

58:15

hear right now?

58:18

I think the only thing that I would say, yes, we've used, I'll speak for myself.

58:23

I have used the word failed several times during this conversation.

58:26

And every example I was giving literally was pertaining to an internalized perception of

58:26

failure or the fact that you literally got a bunch of Fs on your transcript.

58:38

That, the latter.

58:39

is failing.

58:40

You failed several classes.

58:42

But going back to kind of like the general time period, what I would love to encourage for

58:42

any young adult that heard this story is that there is no such thing as failure.

58:54

These are learned experiences.

58:56

Things may not work out, but it's an opportunity for somebody to reflect and say, okay,

58:56

maybe I'm going to do this differently next time.

59:05

What will that look like?

59:07

And

59:07

If you want to focus on it and view things as failures, then you're building this growing

59:07

narrative of essentially making it harder for yourself to almost like picturing digging a

59:22

hole.

59:22

The more negative self-talk you have, gosh, I did it again, here you go.

59:28

It's like you're digging this hole.

59:30

It's harder to get out of the hole when you have this consistent narrative that feels

59:30

just, again, self-defeating.

59:36

deprecating.

59:38

versus if you look at it and say, that sucked.

59:41

Wow, that just like blew that up, know, whatever the case may be.

59:45

But then you actually shift to say, what did I learn from this?

59:48

What will I do differently?

59:49

Again, I just say that now that I feel like I'm repeating myself.

59:52

But if you're able to see the lessons learned, like the benefit of like the birth of

59:52

whatever it was that you took away, then that's not a failure at all.

1:00:04

That's just an experience.

1:00:05

It's a life lesson and you are continuing to move forward.

1:00:09

I absolutely love it.

1:00:11

I once was told, when I was interviewing somebody on this podcast, that it's never too,

1:00:11

too late to rewrite your story.

1:00:20

And like, I feel like that fits in kind of with what you're saying.

1:00:25

And it's like, like learn from it, move on and you can write new chapters.

1:00:32

Yeah, I think that the other thing that I would just kind of tag along with that is that

1:00:32

oftentimes are, and this is where parental differences also vary, like young adults right

1:00:43

now.

1:00:43

Like not, we're not talking about millennials.

1:00:46

We're talking Gen Z are experiencing.

1:00:50

I'm going to butcher this, but I'm still going to pretend like I know there was some data

1:00:50

point out there not so long ago that was saying that they're going to have like nine jobs.

1:00:59

Like, you know, and like several of those are in very different career paths.

1:01:04

So really trying to normalize that like the idea gone is the idea that like at 18 or 21,

1:01:04

you are in a job.

1:01:13

and you are locked into that job for 30 years and you're seeking it out.

1:01:17

So you get a pension or retirement.

1:01:20

And even though that job sucked, you still like push through because this was what you

1:01:20

were, like basically again, pick yourself up by the bootstraps, like suck it up.

1:01:29

This is the career path that you chose.

1:01:31

We don't have that anymore.

1:01:32

We have normalized that it's okay to switch gears.

1:01:35

mean, shoot Travis, you talked about it.

1:01:37

Like you had different jobs, right?

1:01:38

Like this is normal.

1:01:41

So again, no failed experiences, just like use it as an opportunity to learn and move on.

1:01:49

Heck, was in my probably 30s before I really figured out what I wanted to do.

1:01:54

Yeah, I mean, that's what I think I was 30 or 31 when I was like, I'm gonna start this

1:01:54

business.

1:02:03

And I can't tell you how many jobs that I had between undergrad through grad school and

1:02:03

beyond.

1:02:13

Like for me to work somewhere for more than two years was like, I mean,

1:02:19

Might as well have thrown a party to like celebrate the fact that that was like tenured

1:02:25

But you said it's in nowadays though, you're starting to see it more normalized, like you

1:02:25

said, to not sticking around jobs for too long because a lot of these, I think it's kind

1:02:35

of started with my generation of, you know, they switching jobs like every two to three

1:02:35

years to because, well, it's, I'm in this, I feel like I'm in the generation where you're

1:02:47

seeing a lot of these tech companies.

1:02:49

Mm-hmm.

1:02:49

a lot of tech companies come and go.

1:02:52

And so it's like, you're switching every two or three years because maybe you get a better

1:02:52

opportunity, something that helps you with growth.

1:03:00

So it's not totally abnormal.

1:03:02

No, not at all.

1:03:04

Yeah, I mean, this is the...

1:03:05

Look, if you want to view it as a failure, view it as a failure, but still know that life

1:03:05

isn't linear.

1:03:10

You can have as many jobs as you want.

1:03:12

You can change course as many times as you want.

1:03:14

Wherever you go, there you are.

1:03:16

So if the bigger problem is, it's not the jobs, it's me, then that's an opportunity to

1:03:16

say, maybe I should stop for a second and think and get some support.

1:03:25

But otherwise, again, I just want to normalize that it's OK to change course.

1:03:30

Yep.

1:03:31

And I'm at that point right now where it's like, I'm wanting to get away from the nine to

1:03:31

five and to have my own thing.

1:03:38

So I'm like, my wife told me the other day, she's like, well, maybe this is like your

1:03:38

midlife crisis.

1:03:43

And I said, I don't want to think that I'm having a midlife crisis.

1:03:47

uh

1:03:50

it is, you know, we'll see what pans out.

1:03:54

But now just kind of a couple of up questions here.

1:04:00

What in your mind is the biggest stigma when it comes to mental health?

1:04:10

I think the biggest stigma that exists right now is that

1:04:19

Sorry, I got really distracted.

1:04:21

My dog is snoring so loud that I was like actually like totally distracted my train of

1:04:21

thought because I like heard him very loudly.

1:04:30

Okay, so probably the biggest stigma that still exists is that sometimes

1:04:37

You know, it's not a phase.

1:04:40

Sometimes it's not a phase.

1:04:41

Sometimes it really is lifelong support or a need for lifelong support.

1:04:46

It just looks differently at different points in somebody's life.

1:04:50

And I think the other thing that I would throw out there too is that certainly there are,

1:04:50

especially working in kind of like the mental health field, there are diagnoses that are

1:05:01

more themed.

1:05:03

at times and so like you know back in the whatever early 2000s it was like every young boy

1:05:03

had ADHD right like yeah like this there you go he's got ADHD great that made complete

1:05:16

sense why like this young person wasn't able to sit in class or was constantly running

1:05:16

around or not redirectable

1:05:22

Now I feel like it's more common for anxiety.

1:05:24

Again, we're just talking about kind of the nature of who is around.

1:05:29

There's a lot more young adults that I'm meeting with that have an autism diagnosis.

1:05:33

Like that's kind of newer.

1:05:34

But I think the important piece in all of this is for the stigma that mental health, A, it

1:05:34

doesn't mean that

1:05:42

I mean, it's not a death sentence, right?

1:05:44

And it's not a quick fix either.

1:05:46

Sometimes it is something that can be like supported and redirected and like with the

1:05:46

right therapy, with the right kind of like cadence of support, it can be managed and

1:06:00

really feel like it's dormant altogether.

1:06:03

And then there are other mental health conditions that you just have to learn how to

1:06:03

handle and live with for the rest of your life.

1:06:08

And again, there's nothing wrong with it.

1:06:11

I mean, you named it earlier, like Joanna, your superpower is your anxiety.

1:06:15

Like, yes.

1:06:17

But I've also figured out how to make sure that I'm taking care of myself where my anxiety

1:06:17

doesn't spill over into my work or doesn't spill over into my personal relationships.

1:06:27

It's like, I'm constantly just having to make sure that I'm taking care of myself.

1:06:31

Like, that's it.

1:06:33

Absolutely love it.

1:06:34

And I think that's key right there.

1:06:35

It's learning how to take care of it.

1:06:36

Cause that's one thing I didn't realize when I started like doing heavy therapy last year

1:06:36

or the year before, whatever it was is I thought, you know, I could go to therapy in all

1:06:47

this stuff would disappear.

1:06:48

And then my therapist turned around and said, no, it doesn't go away.

1:06:52

You, you just have to learn techniques to deal with it.

1:06:56

was like, huh?

1:06:57

And once I learned those techniques, like,

1:07:00

As I get totally makes sense now, like I don't know why I thought it would go away.

1:07:03

Because it's been here for years.

1:07:06

Yeah.

1:07:08

Yeah.

1:07:09

I think that actually, can I just say that too?

1:07:11

That's I don't I wouldn't call this a stigma per se, but it's probably just a theme that I

1:07:11

really see is that and I do get a chuckle out of this.

1:07:18

And your your example just made me think about this.

1:07:22

Sometimes I'll get parents will be like, my gosh, my 25 year old, like we got to figure

1:07:22

this out.

1:07:27

And I'm like, Well, how long has this been going on?

1:07:30

They're like, well,

1:07:31

you it probably started when they were six and I'm like, so you are expelling, I just want

1:07:31

to like get real clear on expectations that you're wanting me to find resources, maybe for

1:07:45

a three month period that's going to course correct 20 years of

1:07:51

patterns and behaviors.

1:07:53

Like I just want to make sure you understand that like there's a serious disconnect in the

1:07:53

reality of the situation and the expectations that you have for support.

1:08:04

And as long as like oftentimes when when a young adult or a parent they're like oh oh shit

1:08:04

yeah I guess that does make sense.

1:08:11

Then all of sudden it's like cool this is a marathon it's not a sprint and like if you

1:08:11

focus on the marathon it actually goes way more smoothly.

1:08:20

But if you focus on it being a sprint or this quick fix, it's a mess for everybody.

1:08:25

Yeah, so don't go to therapy thinking like, I'm gonna speak with a therapist and I'm gonna

1:08:25

have like three sessions and I'll be good.

1:08:35

It's just like, no, they're not magicians.

1:08:38

Yeah, yeah.

1:08:40

Hey, hey, in my defense, I thought it was going to be at least six.

1:08:46

Yes, of course.

1:08:47

I mean, I only kid because truly the first time I went to therapy too, my therapist was

1:08:47

like, slow the fuck down.

1:08:56

like, Joanna, this is like, this is not you word vomiting, everything that's happened up

1:08:56

to this point and like, tell me what I need to do the quick fix, right?

1:09:05

It was like, I totally went into that that way, but that's also because I was just naive

1:09:05

to understanding like the depth of my situation and what it was going to take.

1:09:15

in terms of effort for me to make changes.

1:09:17

Like you said, like what your therapist said, like here's, here are the things that you

1:09:17

need to do to actually be able to manage your yourself.

1:09:24

And like, that is the crux of the work.

1:09:28

Yep.

1:09:29

Yep.

1:09:30

And it's, it's, it's, it's just an ongoing thing.

1:09:34

And there's times where like, haven't been to therapy for now for a while, but it's like,

1:09:34

there's times where I know the future I'll probably need it again, just to help me get out

1:09:43

of that rut.

1:09:44

I like to think of therapists as like tuneups, right?

1:09:48

Like, especially if you've had, if you have had a good therapist where you've learned some

1:09:48

of like this, again, some skills that you can apply yourself long after the therapist is

1:09:58

gone, but it's okay to have tuneups, right?

1:10:02

Just like every once in a while, we just need to get like, you know,

1:10:06

A little like grease on the wheels, a little like, you know, brake check, like, you know,

1:10:06

we got to make sure we're safe.

1:10:12

And that's, can, we can translate that into like, it's, there's no shame in going to see a

1:10:12

therapist for a couple minutes.

1:10:18

And I also think a couple of minutes, a couple of sessions, whatever.

1:10:22

Clearly I'm starting to get tired too now, like time is a construct.

1:10:26

Um, yeah, anyways.

1:10:27

Yeah, I'm getting to the point where like everything's funny.

1:10:30

Like even though it's only like seven o'clock here, but it's, yeah.

1:10:34

So I'm a night owl.

1:10:38

it's, it's, that's, I have that going for me.

1:10:40

I'm not a morning person at all.

1:10:41

so kind of last two things here is just kind of house cleaning items.

1:10:47

where can people find you?

1:10:49

Best place to go is lilyconsulting.com, my website, and it's Lily spelled with an E and a

1:10:49

Y, so L-I-L-L-E-Y, consulting.com, and that's where you'll find all the details about...

1:11:04

You know, what I do, I've written a ton of blogs, which is more geared towards parents.

1:11:09

So if you're a parent of a young adult or even an adolescent, like reading some of that

1:11:09

stuff would be probably helpful.

1:11:14

And I also host my own podcast called success is subjective, uh, where I have over 340

1:11:14

some interviews at this point of people really like spotlighting their emerging adult

1:11:27

years.

1:11:28

Again, trying to talk through, um, the.

1:11:32

just normalizing, life is not linear, like you don't have to know at 18 what you're gonna

1:11:32

do the rest of your life and like, you know, again, shit happens and I'm just trying to

1:11:41

highlight people that have also shown interest in demystifying or redefying.

1:11:47

what success looks like for them now that they're no longer in this like, you know, again,

1:11:47

high pressure identity development period in their life.

1:11:58

which, and speaking of, I'd love to have you as a guest.

1:12:01

So we can talk about that as a sidebar, but that for listening to the podcast, you can

1:12:01

find that on any podcast playing platform, but you can also just find the actual episodes

1:12:11

themselves on the lilyconsulting.com website.

1:12:16

Awesome.

1:12:16

And a last thing here is we covered a lot of ground.

1:12:19

Is there anything that you'd like to bring up that we did not discuss?

1:12:24

You know, I'm sure if I really thought about it, there's probably something, but I also

1:12:24

feel like we talked about so much that I'm gonna say no.

1:12:34

I think we're good.

1:12:35

I think this is a great conversation.

1:12:38

I totally agree with you.

1:12:39

So that's so from there, I just want to thank you for coming on and having a great

1:12:39

conversation with me.

1:12:45

That's all I can ask for, but this, this went beyond that.

1:12:49

So thank you.

1:12:50

I really admire what you're doing with the younger generation and, you know, just finding

1:12:50

ways to help that generation out and help them kind of get through that transition phase.

1:13:04

Thank you.

1:13:04

Well, thank you for having me and thank you for having this podcast because this platform

1:13:04

is important.

1:13:11

So thank you for what you're doing too.

1:13:15

Thanks, Joanna, and thank you to all that are listening.

1:13:18

The best thing you can do if you resonate with this episode is to share it and give us a

1:13:18

follow.

1:13:24

Thanks again.

1:13:25

Until next time.