How to Trust Yourself When You Expect Things to Go Wrong | Daniel Hodges

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How do you learn to trust

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yourself when you've spent years

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expecting things

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to go wrong? That's something

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I've personally struggled with

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and something

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I've been working hard to

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change.

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Today on Overcome, I'm welcoming

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back Daniel Hodges for a

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conversation about

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self-doubt, trusting your

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intuition,

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and finding the courage to take

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chances.

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We talk about the fear of

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failing,

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the pressure we put on

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ourselves,

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and why making mistakes doesn't

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mean you're not capable of

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succeeding.

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Because sometimes the hardest

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part of moving forward isn't

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knowing what

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to do next, is trusting yourself

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enough to actually do it.

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Let's get into it.

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Hey Daniel, welcome back to

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Overcome.

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It's a pleasure to have you back

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on the show.

0:45

Hey, thanks for having me back.

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I have been looking forward to

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chatting with you again.

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So I'm glad we're able to make

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this happen.

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oh

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Yeah, it's it's it's great. I

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always love you're actually the

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first guest

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to actually come back, so I

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think it's fantastic.

1:02

Well, I will I will try to set

1:02

the bar high.

1:02

And so

1:08

so we've already had the the

1:08

opportunity to for you to share

1:11

your story.

1:12

So we're diving into a few

1:12

different things here.

1:14

But since you've shared your

1:14

story in our last conversation,

1:19

what have you learned about

1:19

yourself?

1:22

I would say this year I have

1:22

learned that my the best version

1:28

of me is one who is a lot less

1:28

risk averse,

1:34

which is funny, you know, coming

1:34

from a lawyer.

1:36

But I've learned that safe

1:36

doesn't pay the bills and I've

1:41

got pretty decent

1:43

intuition. So if I trust myself

1:43

to take calculated risks

1:49

and allow myself to say

1:52

That it's okay if I'm wrong, so

1:52

long as I as I don't take some

1:57

ridiculous risk that

1:58

puts myself or my organization

1:58

in imminent jeopardy.

2:03

It's all part of the learning

2:03

process.

2:04

That's something I I realized

2:04

that back when I started the

2:08

organization,

2:10

that was my mindset. And then

2:10

somewhere along the way,

2:13

I got to be really safe. And

2:13

that's when my leadership

2:17

stalled,

2:18

that's when the organization

2:18

stalled.

2:20

And so this year it's been all

2:20

about getting back to

2:22

experimenting.

2:23

And it's not only much more

2:23

productive,

2:25

it's also a lot more fun.

2:29

Yeah, you have to learn how to

2:29

take those risks,

2:31

right? It's I I feel like I'm

2:31

the same way on my side of

2:35

things.

2:36

When I start playing it safe, I

2:36

become complacent.

2:41

And I feel like I'm not

2:41

progressing at all.

2:44

So but you you talked about in

2:44

that segment that you just uh

2:49

said that

2:50

trusting your intuition, what

2:50

does that mean actually mean to

2:53

you?

2:56

It means getting the best

2:56

information we can and then

3:02

trusting

3:02

my decision process enough to

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say this feels right,

3:07

this doesn't feel right, and

3:07

letting eighty percent

3:11

confidence be good enough.

3:17

And how do you how do you know

3:17

when you're there?

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What does that feel like?

3:22

You know, for me it is kind of a

3:22

spiritual feeling.

3:25

I'll I'll start to get those

3:25

feelings of reassurance or that

3:29

little

3:29

bit of excitement or maybe even

3:29

that quick little moment where

3:33

you feel like that

3:35

light bulb turn on and you're

3:35

like,

3:36

Oh, yes, there, there we go. Um,

3:39

those are the moments where I

3:39

feel like something is clicked

3:43

into place and I feel

3:44

comfortable moving forward.

3:44

Versus if something starts to

3:49

feel like a slog

3:50

to me.

3:51

Or if it's just like it's having

3:51

too much friction,

3:56

then I'll have to take a step

3:56

back and say,

3:58

okay, is there is there a point

3:58

of friction,

4:00

a discernible point of friction

4:00

that I can identify and address?

4:06

And if not, is there a piece of

4:06

a puzzle that maybe I

4:10

miscalculated that

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led me to this particular path

4:11

that I needed to go backwards

4:16

and reevaluate?

4:17

uh

4:19

And then see if there's a

4:19

different,

4:20

better pathway forward.

4:25

Fair. Yeah, and I've been in

4:25

those situations too.

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And it's I always hate those

4:28

moments when I feel like I've

4:31

made a good decision,

4:32

then all of a sudden like, no,

4:33

I'm I'm back to reevaluating

4:33

because that wasn't as good as I

4:38

hoped it would be.

4:41

Yeah, and I think it's important

4:41

to say here too,

4:45

even if we make the best

4:45

decision analytically,

4:49

intuitively, stuff still

4:49

happens.

4:53

You know, chaos still enters

4:53

into the equation.

4:58

Other people's agency still

4:58

enters into the equation.

5:02

The the unknown unknown unknowns

5:02

still enter the equation.

5:06

And so I think it's all about

5:06

saying

5:10

I had the best process I could.

5:13

I I evaluated and acquired the

5:13

best information I could.

5:19

And nobody with the possible

5:19

exception of me is expecting me

5:24

to get it right

5:25

a hundred percent of the time.

5:27

Everybody else is out there

5:27

saying,

5:29

dude, have some grace. It's me

5:29

who says,

5:32

No, I want to be perfect, I want

5:32

to prove that I'm a good leader,

5:36

I want to prove that I'm a good

5:36

man,

5:37

I wanna prove that I'm smart.

5:39

Blah blah blah. That's where I

5:39

get into trouble.

5:45

It all oftentimes I feel like we

5:45

are our own worst critics

5:49

critics.

5:50

I can't speak. We are our own

5:50

worst critics.

5:55

Absolutely. I mean, I think we

5:55

say things to ourselves either

5:59

out loud or within

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the confines of our own minds.

6:03

We would never say to anyone

6:03

else.

6:05

I mean, with the possible

6:05

exception of Twitter,

6:07

but that doesn't count. But, you

6:07

know,

6:09

in all seriousness, we we do. We

6:09

we say things to ourselves that

6:14

we would never

6:15

say to somebody else. We we fail

6:15

w we show grace to others that

6:21

we fail to show

6:22

to ourselves in

6:24

Yeah, it becomes this nasty

6:24

cycle where it erodes our

6:28

inconfidence,

6:29

it makes it harder to make the

6:29

next decision and then you keep

6:33

going down that

6:34

rabbit trail and before you know

6:34

it,

6:35

you're afraid to do anything.

6:38

Yeah,

6:39

for sure. And you remind me of a

6:39

a song that I really like by uh

6:45

I

6:45

I'm a big music person, so I

6:45

always relate it back to lyrics.

6:49

But there's a song by this

6:49

smaller band,

6:51

they're like an emo alternative

6:51

punk band named Rain City Drive,

6:57

and the whole song is I wouldn't

6:57

talk to a friend like I talked

7:00

to myself.

7:02

And it's it's

7:02

Love that.

7:03

the lyrics are basically him

7:03

fighting with himself.

7:07

internally and it really fits

7:07

into what we're talking about.

7:13

Yeah, and I you know,

7:17

I think

7:21

I think with that too, you know,

7:23

just understanding that even

7:23

when we get negative feedback,

7:29

our mind has this natural

7:29

tendency to amplify that

7:34

feedback and extrapolate

7:36

that feedback. And because it's

7:36

internal,

7:40

we don't even have the

7:40

opportunity to ask the other

7:43

person,

7:44

did you mean what I heard?

7:44

Because it's all insular.

7:52

Yes, yes, for sure I totally

7:52

agree.

7:56

But where d where do you think

7:56

that internal voice of self self

8:00

doubt actually

8:01

comes from?

8:03

Well, I think

8:06

I think if we're naturally

8:06

driven,

8:10

there's a there's there's a

8:10

shadow side to that drive.

8:16

There's a hunger that propels us

8:16

forward,

8:21

but also measures us against

8:21

where we wish we were.

8:25

And that's a be it's a very

8:25

healthy thing.

8:29

And it can also be a very

8:29

dangerous thing.

8:32

So at least for me, it's always

8:32

about saying.

8:36

Maybe I'm not where I thought I

8:36

would be as we record this

8:40

today.

8:41

As a matter of fact, I know I'm

8:41

not.

8:43

I'm nowhere near where I hoped

8:43

to be or thought I would be.

8:46

And I somehow have to let that

8:46

go and measure it against where

8:51

I was yesterday

8:52

or last week or last month. And

8:52

when we don't have the tools

8:58

to tame that particular lion,

8:58

that's where those na that's

9:02

where that nasty dialogue

9:03

comes from.

9:06

Very well said, and I have to

9:06

say I'm right there with you.

9:09

I'm nowhere where I want to be.

9:11

And it's sometimes it's really,

9:13

really hard for me because I I

9:13

expected so much more of myself,

9:18

but I know it's only me saying

9:18

those words.

9:20

Nobody else expected this stuff

9:20

of me.

9:24

Exactly. And if you're like me

9:24

and you were blessed with

9:29

a very, very good memory, not

9:29

quite photographic,

9:34

but good enough, on one hand,

9:34

that's awesome because it allows

9:39

me to

9:39

do a lot of things with my mind

9:39

that a lot of people can't do.

9:42

And on the other hand, it takes

9:42

a conscious effort to flush

9:48

those memories

9:49

or those mistakes. You know,

9:49

there are

9:52

I'm told there are people out

9:52

there who can screw something up

9:55

and the next

9:55

day don't even remember it

9:55

happened.

9:57

That's not me. I can look back a

9:57

month,

10:00

a year, 10 years, 20 years back

10:00

and still feel those

10:07

events as though they happened

10:07

yesterday.

10:09

The pain, the shame, the the

10:09

frustration,

10:13

all of those things are still

10:13

fresh because the memories are

10:16

fresh.

10:18

And to be clear, am I

10:18

complaining about being blessed

10:20

with a good memory?

10:21

No.

10:22

But it's something I have to be

10:22

very conscious of and say that

10:26

along with this

10:27

blessing comes the requirement

10:27

for me to learn how to manage

10:33

the various

10:34

aspects of that gift or that

10:34

blessing in order to not

10:37

literally drive myself

10:38

insane.

10:42

Yes, yes. You're saying some

10:42

good things now because I mean

10:45

you're always saying

10:46

good things but it's it's so

10:46

true.

10:49

It's I I'm relating to all this.

10:50

I'm just picturing me sitting

10:50

here as I'm as I'm

10:56

making me think about all the

10:56

different projects that I have

10:59

going on and

11:01

i if you don't get yourself in

11:01

that might right space,

11:04

yeah, you're you're gonna go

11:04

insane from how many things can

11:08

like go wrong within

11:09

your own mind.

11:13

Definitely and go ahead. I I was

11:13

It so let me ask oh go ahead.

11:13

No,

11:17

you're you're good.

11:18

I was just gonna say too, who we

11:18

surround ourselves with also

11:23

makes a tremendous

11:24

difference. And I don't just

11:24

mean avoiding critical people,

11:30

although that's part of it. If

11:30

we avoid people who are able to

11:36

give

11:36

us uplifting, edifying feedback

11:36

that

11:42

that then creates a vacant

11:42

space.

11:46

So in my mind, surrounding

11:46

ourselves with people that never

11:52

give

11:53

us feedback that is useful. It's

11:53

always,

11:56

yeah, that's okay, or it's no

11:56

big deal,

11:59

or nothing that we can build

11:59

upon.

12:00

That can actually be nearly,

12:04

if not completely, as harmful as

12:04

the the people who tear us down

12:09

And the more devious part about

12:09

it is we don't even we don't

12:13

even realize it's

12:14

happening. So I think who we

12:14

surround ourselves with also

12:17

plays a pivotal role

12:18

in how we are able to show up

12:18

and how we're able to maintain

12:22

that growth

12:23

mindset.

12:26

Yes,

12:26

very well said. Uh I've always

12:26

spoke on the show that community

12:30

is a huge

12:30

one and a huge huge thing. And I

12:30

think that's comes in like your

12:35

personal life

12:36

as well as your work career path

12:36

as well.

12:41

Because you want those people

12:41

that when they give their

12:45

criticism that it's it's

12:46

a positive thing. You don't want

12:46

them to reinforce the negative

12:49

things that you're

12:50

already that we're already

12:50

telling ourselves.

12:54

Absolutely. Action oriented.

12:58

We want it to be something that

12:58

you can we can either go back

13:04

and build upon, or we want it to

13:04

be something that we can say,

13:09

you know what? Maybe I'm not an

13:09

executive chef,

13:14

or maybe I don't clean as well

13:14

as you know,

13:17

somebody who's, you know, gifted

13:17

in that area,

13:21

or whatever the case may be.

13:23

And that's okay. I'm willing to

13:23

punt on that.

13:26

But it's that in between space

13:26

where we feel like we should be

13:29

better at something

13:30

than we really are. That's where

13:30

there's ample ground for those

13:33

negative voices

13:34

to pop in.

13:39

Yes. And I've I've let them pop

13:39

in way too many times.

13:43

It's like if you

13:44

yeah.

13:48

Yeah uh but do do you believe

13:48

that we can uh truly find peace

13:53

within ourselves when

13:55

we're uh constantly questioning

13:55

our decisions or seeking

13:58

validation from

13:59

others?

14:01

No. We have to we have to come

14:01

at it from some place

14:07

of security and some place of

14:07

belonging within ourselves.

14:15

And it doesn't have to be

14:15

perfect.

14:17

I don't think it ever is

14:17

perfect.

14:19

At least not on this side of the

14:19

veil.

14:21

But we have to take some

14:21

ownership of our own mental

14:27

health

14:28

and our own well being.

14:31

even at the most basic level

14:31

before we can start building in

14:35

that piece.

14:40

Yes, I I totally agree. It

14:40

today,

14:43

uh I know we've probably

14:43

discussed this on a your

14:46

previous episode,

14:46

but as of today, what what do

14:46

you have to do to take control

14:50

of your mental health?

14:54

You know, I've learned and and

14:54

it it's so cliche.

14:58

I have learned self-care deeply

14:58

matters.

15:02

And it's hard because I was I

15:02

was talking with somebody the

15:06

other day.

15:07

I had to walk away from work

15:07

that was piling up and go put my

15:12

earbuds

15:13

in and listen to music for forty

15:13

five minutes a couple days ago

15:17

because

15:18

I was just starting to feel

15:18

myself fraying and it's

15:23

It's hard because you you you

15:23

want to just grind it through,

15:27

but sometimes you have to go

15:27

back and sharpen the saw.

15:30

So I think that's one thing that

15:30

I've been reminded of and I've

15:35

become more cognizant

15:37

of. Um and also

15:42

Surrounding myself with things

15:42

that are edifying in the sense

15:49

of you know, giving myself tasks

15:49

that I can do that feel

15:53

productive and that feel

15:55

like they're leading somewhere,

15:56

and taking myself from wow,

16:01

I should have known that, to

16:01

hey,

16:03

I just learned something cool,

16:05

um, in reframing those things.

16:11

as a reflection of me being on a

16:11

growth journey as opposed to me

16:15

being imperfect.

16:20

Yeah, yeah, good stuff. And it's

16:20

I'm such a advocate for taking

16:24

the time that

16:25

you need away away from,

16:29

you know, work or whatever it is

16:29

that's you need to take away

16:32

from like you said

16:33

you had to plug in and

16:33

headphones and listen to music

16:35

for forty five minutes.

16:37

I I feel like that's really

16:37

important to do,

16:39

to find those whether it's, you

16:39

know,

16:41

an audio book or music or

16:41

whatever it is that you need to

16:45

do because you need that

16:47

reset in order to fully

16:47

function.

16:51

Definitely. And also, I'm

16:51

thinking back to a conversation

16:54

I had with one of my team

16:56

members earlier this year. We

16:56

were talking about running a

16:59

series of experiments

17:01

and you know, different

17:01

investments for the nonprofit.

17:05

And I knew that she was on the

17:05

fence about whether

17:11

or not she wanted to support

17:11

that as a board member and also

17:14

as treasurer.

17:15

And we s we had a really good

17:15

phone conversation.

17:20

And when I heard her point of

17:20

view and went what the and was

17:25

able to process it,

17:26

we came to a place where we

17:26

said,

17:28

okay, failure or success is not

17:28

the defining factor.

17:34

It's did we evaluate the pros

17:34

and cons?

17:37

Did we make sure we have the

17:37

capital to do this responsibly?

17:40

And did we do our research? And

17:40

if we can check those three

17:45

boxes,

17:47

the result.

17:48

Is it gonna be a reflection of

17:48

my leadership?

17:51

It's not a reflection of my

17:51

intelligence.

17:55

It's just a matter of going out

17:55

and finding does this work or

17:59

does this not?

18:00

And if it doesn't work, what can

18:00

we learn from this to try

18:04

something else that

18:06

actually will get us closer to

18:06

that point where something

18:08

clicks?

18:09

And I think that mindset shift

18:09

of always g being in that design

18:15

thinking mode.

18:16

Iterating, ideating, learning,

18:19

experimenting, you know, maybe

18:19

even occasionally blowing

18:23

something up so long

18:24

as it's the best we can clean up

18:24

afterward.

18:27

That's okay, and not only is

18:27

that okay,

18:29

that's what makes my work fun.

18:35

You mentioned yeah, blowing

18:35

something up,

18:37

that sounds like fun to me.

18:37

Yeah,

18:40

Figuratively, of course, you

18:40

know,

18:42

but

18:43

I I know, I was I was just being

18:43

funny.

18:46

Cause th sometimes those things

18:46

that blow up at work you you

18:50

don't want them to blow

18:51

up for sure. But if you

18:53

You know, I'll

18:55

tell you a quick story. Um, and

18:55

you're and your listeners,

18:59

your viewers may remember from a

18:59

previous episode that um that I

19:04

am blind.

19:05

And this comes into play because

19:05

when I was eighteen,

19:10

nineteen years old, twenty years

19:10

old,

19:13

my family member and I,

19:17

we would do the kind of stupid

19:17

things young men do.

19:21

And we would

19:23

you know, actually set

19:23

controlled fire and like see

19:25

what kind of different color

19:27

flames we could make and all of

19:27

that.

19:30

And what I didn't know at the

19:30

time was a couple months after

19:35

we had started this

19:36

and I had started to get myself

19:36

comfortable with fire,

19:39

I actually did have a fire in my

19:39

apartment and I didn't panic.

19:45

I calmly dealt with it because I

19:45

had experimented,

19:49

because I had liter you know,

19:49

literally playing with fire.

19:53

Actually saved my bacon ac twice

19:53

in my life,

19:56

as a matter of fact.

20:00

That's that's a good thing then.

20:03

Yeah.

20:03

I

20:04

I do re I do remember uh a uh

20:04

long time ago we had a neighbor

20:10

kid that

20:10

um like he was playing with fire

20:10

in our backyard and I don't

20:13

think anybody

20:14

was home of my family and he

20:14

almost started our backyard on

20:18

fire.

20:19

And I think his his somebody

20:19

found out and went and got it

20:25

out,

20:25

went got buckets of water. We

20:25

had this like little hill thing

20:28

back.

20:28

in my backyard and we're just

20:28

lucky did it expand.

20:34

Yeah,

20:34

yeah.

20:38

You know, you know what comes to

20:38

mind in all of this is learning

20:43

to trust myself.

20:45

Learning to trust that

20:46

Yeah.

20:46

whatever situation I find myself

20:46

in,

20:51

with the right preparation, the

20:51

right inspiration and intuition,

20:54

there's a very good chance I

20:54

will be able to work my way out

20:58

of it.

20:59

And I've seen it time and time

20:59

again,

21:02

and I know that I make the best

21:02

decisions when I'm in that place

21:06

of trust.

21:08

And conversely I make the worst

21:08

decisions when I exit that place

21:12

of trust and start

21:13

thinking about everything that

21:13

that can go wrong.

21:18

Yeah, you're you're I I think

21:18

you're pretty much explaining

21:23

me.

21:24

But when it's like when I think

21:24

there's gonna be a fire,

21:27

there's usually a fire. But when

21:27

I sit down and think about stuff

21:33

for a moment

21:35

and and like, well, you know,

21:35

this this could go right and

21:38

this could go right,

21:39

that's that's progress. That's

21:39

that's really trusting my

21:42

intuition and getting

21:44

to the bottom of things.

21:47

And sometimes sometimes it's the

21:47

kind of thing where you don't

21:54

know that you can achieve

21:54

something that defies logic

21:58

until you achieve something

22:01

that defies logic and you do it

22:01

again and then you do it again.

22:05

You know, I'm thinking back to

22:05

my move over to law school

22:11

in twenty eighteen where I

22:11

actually

22:16

had to move to Baltimore and

22:16

sign a lease and do all these

22:21

other things

22:22

before my application for b for

22:22

law school was officially

22:27

accepted and I had

22:29

my mo my method of payment.

22:29

That's how that's how everything

22:32

turned out.

22:34

And you know, it's kind of like

22:34

any muscle.

22:39

You learn to do that. You learn

22:39

that you can do that through

22:43

repetition and through

22:45

learning.

22:46

And through occasionally

22:46

screwing things up because

22:48

that's part of the learning

22:49

process. I I don't know how I

22:49

don't know any other way you can

22:53

do it.

22:57

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I feel

22:57

like that everything that we're

23:02

saying here though,

23:03

it's it's all part of a learning

23:03

process.

23:06

It's all building the right

23:06

habits and repeating them over

23:11

and over again

23:13

and being willing to to fail.

23:13

And then repeating again.

23:21

Exactly.

23:24

And I know you had mentioned in

23:24

our in our offline

23:28

correspondence about

23:30

our relationship with failure.

23:32

And it's you know failure's

23:32

never fun.

23:37

I mean, if failure doesn't hurt,

23:42

then I think we were we can

23:42

safely say we didn't care enough

23:45

or we weren't trying

23:47

hard enough. But but at the same

23:47

time

23:53

You can hold that frustration

23:53

and also say,

23:57

It is not a reflection of me. It

23:57

is not a reflection of my worth.

24:02

It might even not even be a

24:02

reflection of my idea.

24:07

It's just that this particular

24:07

thing did not work at this time

24:12

in this way.

24:14

Maybe it'll work differently.

24:14

Maybe it's an indication I need

24:17

to try something

24:18

different. It's almost always.

24:21

useful data for your next thing.

24:24

And I think that has been a key

24:24

thing throughout my life is

24:28

learning

24:31

Failure hurts when we don't see

24:31

the next pathway after the

24:37

failure.

24:39

If we see the next suite of

24:39

options after the failure,

24:43

then we have hope. If we don't

24:43

see the pathway,

24:48

if we don't see that next door,

24:50

if we see the failure and we

24:50

feel trapped,

24:55

that my friend, at least for me,

24:56

is when hope gets in a real

25:00

problematic area and when

25:00

depression and anxiety start to

25:03

take their toll.

25:08

Yeah, that's very well put. And

25:08

I feel like with my own personal

25:12

stuff too that

25:13

it's I I f I feel like I've been

25:13

working on this this year is to

25:18

to take what

25:19

I failed at and you know, write

25:19

down lessons learned from it.

25:25

Because that's that's where some

25:25

of my best work has come in.

25:30

Is by like, okay, well, you

25:30

know,

25:32

this didn't go the way I wanted

25:32

to go,

25:34

but it's it's like you said, it

25:34

it's not

25:37

Has nothing to do with who I am

25:37

as a person or me not trying.

25:41

It's like just because before I

25:41

feel like I'd fail and I just

25:45

give up.

25:45

I'd quit everything that

25:45

started.

25:47

But now I'm finally to that

25:47

point where I'm not going to

25:52

quit.

25:52

I'm gonna keep pushing through

25:52

because my failures are teaching

25:55

me something.

25:59

Yeah, and I think uh leave it to

25:59

the lawyer you know,

26:03

le leave it to the log rod to

26:03

put it this way.

26:05

But I think there's also a valid

26:05

question of did I actually fail

26:12

or did I succeed differently or

26:12

maybe succeed at a lower

26:17

threshold than

26:18

I thought I would. Um because

26:18

that distinction matters.

26:23

For example, we just recently

26:23

launched a newsletter.

26:29

And I wish I had a thousand

26:29

people on my newsletter right

26:34

now,

26:34

or two thousand or ten thousand.

26:36

Right now we have a little over

26:36

a hundred.

26:40

And I could be frustrated by

26:40

that.

26:44

And I certainly will be

26:44

frustrated by that if it's that

26:47

way in in in six months.

26:49

But when I see the notifications

26:49

come in that someone

26:56

has signed signed up for it.

26:59

Am I gonna say, Wow, I wish that

26:59

was ten people?

27:02

Or am I going to stop and say,

27:03

Hey, we just added somebody new.

27:06

This person might even be brand

27:06

new to the organization.

27:09

How cool is that? And cherish

27:09

that win,

27:13

even if it's at a smaller scale

27:13

than I hoped it would be.

27:18

The event is the same either

27:18

way.

27:20

It's all about our perspective.

27:26

Oh yeah, and one thing I've

27:26

learned throughout the last few

27:30

years is we need

27:31

to celebrate the wins, even if

27:31

they are small.

27:34

Even if it's one little step,

27:34

celebrate it.

27:37

Go for it.

27:42

The

27:43

next thing question I have, I

27:43

want to go back to your

27:48

entrepreneurship

27:50

experience because at some point

27:50

I'm guessing you've experienced

27:55

rejection.

27:57

Oh mercy.

27:58

And with

28:04

And I wanna know how that has

28:04

changed like how that entre that

28:11

experience has changed the way

28:11

you interpret rejection today.

28:16

Oh, the the the the many many

28:16

stories I could share.

28:20

Here's one for you. I had three

28:20

board members resign in one

28:26

night,

28:28

um, not too long after we got

28:28

started.

28:31

And you know, I've had grant

28:31

reject you know,

28:35

grant proposals rejected. I've

28:35

had people come right out and

28:41

say,

28:42

We don't understand what you're

28:42

doing or why this even matters.

28:46

And

28:48

So on, so on down the line. And

28:48

I even had moments where

28:55

I'd had to say, you know what?

28:58

This rejection is related to the

28:58

fact that sometimes what we are

29:03

doing

29:06

Is either the wrong time or

29:06

maybe it's not the best way to

29:10

execute our mission.

29:11

And sometimes you have to be

29:11

able to say,

29:15

maybe this person doesn't get

29:15

it,

29:17

or maybe this person's on to

29:17

something,

29:19

and then they go back to the

29:19

drawing board.

29:22

Um but something that has really

29:22

stuck with me that a friend

29:27

shared a few years

29:28

ago was that people, and I'll

29:28

even say opportunities.

29:36

Come into our life for a reason

29:36

or a season,

29:40

but rarely forever. And that was

29:40

a that was a light bulb moment

29:46

for me when I realized that just

29:46

because something worked for a

29:52

while and then

29:53

it stopped working doesn't mean

29:53

that we failed.

29:57

It means hopefully it served its

29:57

purpose.

30:01

And just because something

30:01

doesn't work today doesn't

30:04

necessarily mean it won't

30:05

work.

30:06

Tomorrow and sometimes

30:13

Sometimes it's being receptive

30:13

to the feedback we're getting,

30:16

whether it be from other people

30:16

or the market or just the global

30:21

chaos around us,

30:23

and saying, What can I learn

30:23

from this?

30:26

How can I improve? How can I

30:26

help my organization improve?

30:30

And sometimes it's listening

30:30

long enough to understand that

30:35

criticism

30:36

or rejection is coming from a

30:36

place of genuine

30:39

misunderstanding.

30:42

And

30:42

When that understanding is

30:42

created,

30:46

maybe that rejection goes away,

30:48

maybe it clarifies, or maybe you

30:48

walk away saying,

30:52

you know what? They're just not

30:52

gonna understand because this

30:55

isn't important

30:56

to them, or their life

30:56

experience is so far afield from

31:01

what we're

31:03

doing that bless their heart,

31:06

there's nothing I can do here to

31:06

change it.

31:09

And learning that discernment.

31:12

And again, you know, beat this

31:12

drum.

31:15

Learning that you don't have to

31:15

get it right every single time.

31:21

If I'm right most of the time,

31:23

if I fix it most of the time, if

31:23

I make the decision most of the

31:27

time,

31:28

we're gonna be okay. As I've

31:28

learned to adopt that mindset,

31:34

it has reframed everything when

31:34

it comes to failure and

31:38

rejection.

31:39

And it's still a journey.

31:41

I'm nowhere near a hundred

31:41

percent of the way there,

31:43

but I'm a lot closer than the

31:43

last time we talked.

31:47

Yeah,

31:47

that's that's really good to

31:47

hear.

31:48

That's that's awesome because I

31:48

I feel that it's

31:56

that being on that journey and

31:56

trying to learn those different

31:59

things is it's

32:00

rough.

32:03

Uh but how which leads me into

32:03

my my next question.

32:08

How do we learn to accept uh

32:08

things like constructive

32:12

criticism and rejection

32:14

without allowing it to destroy

32:14

our confidence?

32:21

I think it starts by going back

32:21

and really

32:28

finding out who you are and what

32:28

you're put on this earth to do.

32:35

Um and I think that's a process

32:35

that we do internally,

32:41

and it also comes back to are we

32:41

surrounding ourselves with

32:45

people

32:46

who can tell us.

32:51

You're really good at this or

32:51

you have this talent and mean it

32:55

and be able

32:55

to cite specific examples where

32:55

they've seen it.

32:59

Because when you

33:05

When you have internalized not

33:05

just the compliment,

33:10

but the examples of the

33:10

compliment.

33:12

When you've grafted that into

33:12

your identity,

33:17

it helps you approach those

33:17

interactions differently.

33:20

You know, I I think back to my

33:20

first year of law school and I

33:25

had finally,

33:26

after my education journey and

33:26

all these other things,

33:29

I had finally gotten to the

33:29

point where I'm thinking,

33:32

oh, I'm a really good writer.

33:35

You know, I had somebody who's a

33:35

who is a friend say,

33:38

Your writing, your worst writing

33:38

is better than most people's

33:41

best writing.

33:42

And what a blessing that was.

33:42

And then I went to law school.

33:46

And then I don't know, three

33:46

weeks in the law school,

33:50

you had the professor saying,

33:50

Everyone of you in here thinks

33:54

you're a good writer.

33:55

And if you were a terrible

33:55

writer,

33:57

you wouldn't be here. But right

33:57

now,

33:59

for a lawyer, your writing

33:59

sucks.

34:04

So you know framing that oh was

34:04

vital because you have to have

34:11

the context and you have to have

34:11

the underlying the underlying

34:16

self-awareness

34:17

to know where that criticism

34:17

fits in and and and what it

34:23

means

34:24

and what it doesn't mean.

34:29

And you you just had somebody

34:29

just flood out say and put you

34:32

you guys in your

34:33

place, it sounds like.

34:34

Yeah.

34:37

Man, my my first semester

34:37

midterms were

34:45

I didn't know it was possible to

34:45

score so low on some of my first

34:48

semester midterms.

34:50

Yeah.

34:50

I I wanna say I had like a six

34:50

out of thirty on one of It was

34:55

bad.

34:56

It was so bad. But then you

34:56

know,

35:00

I was able to go and have a

35:00

one-on-one with my professors

35:03

and say

35:05

Clearly I'm not this stupid. And

35:05

they're like,

35:08

no, you're actually really

35:08

smart.

35:10

You just need a little guidance

35:10

on how to do this.

35:15

And you know, letting you know I

35:15

survived all three years of law

35:18

school.

35:18

But but again, it's you know

35:24

Real belonging, both internally

35:24

and externally,

35:31

has to come from a place where

35:31

we're able to succeed and fail

35:36

based on our effort

35:37

and based on our gifts and

35:37

talents.

35:39

Because if we don't have that,

35:41

we're never going to be able to

35:41

identify where we actually have

35:44

the best pathway

35:45

forward.

35:48

Yeah, for sure. and it's like

35:48

what you mentioned before about

35:55

finding

35:55

those people that aren't afraid

35:55

to tell you,

36:00

you know, you you're really good

36:00

at this.

36:02

You should look into doing this.

36:04

And that I feel like that's part

36:04

of how I landed my like

36:08

professional career

36:10

is I started out as a a web

36:10

developer and

36:15

Don't get me wrong, I am not a

36:15

good web developer.

36:17

I don't understand the logic. I

36:17

I can write little bits and

36:21

pieces of code

36:22

and I can look at it and say,

36:22

okay,

36:23

well, maybe it's doing this. But

36:23

when I'm writing it like deep

36:28

down,

36:28

it's like, no, I don't enjoy

36:28

this.

36:30

So I had a my manager pull me

36:30

aside to say,

36:33

you know what? You need to be

36:33

running things.

36:35

You need to be running the

36:35

project stuff.

36:38

Maybe not necessarily people,

36:38

but you need to have that

36:41

project spelled out in front

36:42

of you and

36:44

learn how to push it forward.

36:44

And that's how I got into

36:47

project management,

36:48

which is what I do now. It's

36:48

it's because that one person

36:52

noticed that I could

36:54

do it.

36:57

I I and good for your

36:57

supervisor.

36:58

And I've actually had a similar

36:58

conversation with one of my

37:02

friends

37:03

and um volunteers. Very similar,

37:07

where yeah, she is inadequate

37:07

and adequate,

37:13

to be clear, web developer. But

37:13

when it comes to getting

37:20

all of those minutiae taken care

37:20

of,

37:22

when it comes to getting all of

37:22

the visuals taken care of.

37:26

You know, that wasn't her strong

37:26

suit and so I had to pull her

37:30

aside and say,

37:31

You're incredibly valuable to us

37:31

and you're gonna be valuable to

37:34

what

37:34

to employers. But the best place

37:34

I can put you is where you are,

37:41

if you think about it in

37:41

football analogies,

37:44

put you as a kick returner or a

37:44

halfback where you're getting

37:48

the ball most

37:49

of the way down the field and

37:49

then when we get toward the goal

37:53

line,

37:53

I can hand it over to our

37:53

fullback to get it into the end

37:56

zone.

37:57

And as we learned, I as she

37:57

learned to accept it and as I

38:02

learned

38:03

to approach that topic,

38:07

I learned a little about her, I

38:07

learned a little about me,

38:10

and we both grew.

38:14

Yeah, and it's and I I do think

38:14

you hit a key word right there,

38:19

the word approach. Because I I I

38:19

believe that it all depends

38:24

on how you approach that person

38:24

with,

38:28

you know, said feedback or

38:28

criticism or whatever it is,

38:31

because it can all I I've had

38:31

managers that have taken it

38:35

completely

38:35

out of context and I walked away

38:35

feeling like I wasn't worth

38:39

anything to them.

38:42

I think it's so true. And we we

38:42

think about constructive versus

38:45

unconstructive

38:46

criticism and oftentimes we

38:46

focus on well what was said.

38:52

You know, w da you know, did did

38:52

it give you an action item?

38:55

And while that's true, I think

38:55

it's missing the deeper point.

38:59

Constructive criticism must come

38:59

from someone who we know

39:05

believes in us.

39:07

Otherwise, it's not gonna stick.

39:10

the way that it's not gonna land

39:10

the way the people that people

39:12

think it will

39:13

and hope it will.

39:17

Mm-hmm. That's that's for sure.

39:20

It's 'cause there's I this just

39:20

thinking of myself again is

39:24

there's times where

39:25

somebody tried to give me

39:25

contractive criticism and I

39:28

didn't care

39:29

for the person. So it was like,

39:31

Yeah, I didn't get anything out

39:31

of what you just said because

39:36

you've never really

39:38

acted like you've

39:41

Given a crap about my

39:41

performance before.

39:43

Yeah.

39:46

Yeah, yeah. And and and and and

39:46

and if we don't respect the

39:50

other person's opinion

39:54

let me backtrack here. You have

39:54

to respect the person's opinion

39:59

a lot more

40:01

for the c for the criticism to

40:01

be edifying than you do for the

40:05

criticism

40:05

to be damaging. The threshold is

40:05

very different.

40:12

Yes, it is. That's that is for

40:12

sure.

40:16

And I wanna kinda shift back

40:16

kind of towards uh we we've

40:20

mentioned the word

40:21

mindset a couple times and

40:21

talked a little bit about growth

40:25

mindset and changing your

40:27

mindset. And th this question

40:27

I've I've struggled with what

40:30

I'm gonna ask you,

40:31

so I wanna know your opinion on

40:31

it.

40:34

Uh how can someone begin

40:34

changing their mindset when

40:38

they've spent years expecting

40:40

things to go wrong?

40:44

I think the first thing is to go

40:44

back and do an audit of your

40:49

life,

40:50

whether you do it individually,

40:51

whether you do it through

40:51

journaling,

40:53

whether you do it with the help

40:53

of somebody who is able to

40:56

shepherd

40:56

you through that conversation.

40:58

Because I guarantee you you've

40:58

experienced successes in your

41:01

life.

41:02

And I think once you go back and

41:02

you say,

41:07

I've got positive case examples,

41:10

I know even if you're gonna say,

41:12

Okay, well.

41:13

Okay, that was 20% of the time.

41:15

We're gonna set that aside for

41:15

the moment and say,

41:17

okay, it's happened. Because it

41:17

has happened before,

41:21

it must by virtue of logic be

41:21

possible to happen again.

41:26

So you you find those case

41:26

examples,

41:30

you ask yourself or you work

41:30

with somebody that you love and

41:34

trust to figure out what

41:36

did you do? What was the

41:36

process?

41:38

What can you build upon from

41:38

those examples?

41:42

And then I think you look for

41:42

things that give you hope.

41:47

Whether it's music, whether it's

41:47

books or podcasts,

41:51

you look for things and you look

41:51

for people that give you hope.

41:56

And you understand that it's

41:56

going to be it's gonna be a drag

42:01

for a while.

42:03

You're not gonna go from I can't

42:03

do anything to I can do

42:06

everything overnight.

42:08

But if you work on it

42:08

consistently a little every day.

42:12

eventually you'll start to see

42:12

that one success leads to

42:18

another

42:20

leads to another and then you

42:20

start changing that pattern both

42:25

externally

42:26

and also within your mind and

42:26

eventually you start

42:31

to say oh I can do this has now

42:31

somehow become my default.

42:41

Yes, very very well said. And

42:41

it's and speaking from

42:47

experience, personal experience,

42:49

from being that person, it's

42:49

it's almost like the more I I

42:55

try things

42:57

and just keep pushing through,

42:58

oh, you know what, like maybe

42:58

things won't go wrong.

43:03

If I if I don't give up, what do

43:03

I have to lose?

43:08

Cause it's like that that

43:08

thought of

43:11

Expecting things to go wrong uh

43:11

I f has put me back a lot in

43:16

life.

43:16

It's it's made me not push

43:16

forward,

43:19

it's made me become complacent,

43:21

it's but but now it's like I'm

43:21

not I'm not just I'm not gonna

43:25

sit back anymore,

43:27

I'm gonna do what I wanna do.

43:30

You know, I think about going

43:30

back to the whole reading thing,

43:35

I think about um a book that I

43:35

read,

43:39

I wanna say it was twenty

43:39

seventeen ish.

43:44

So right as I was making the

43:44

jump end up pursuing law school

43:48

and other things,

43:50

I was reading a book, I think it

43:50

was Tribe of Mentors by Tim

43:53

Ferris,

43:54

and he talked about a topic he

43:54

calls Fear Setting.

43:58

Which is a middle exercise where

43:58

you actually go through and you

44:02

could even

44:03

call it conscious

44:03

catastrophizing.

44:05

Okay, if this goes wrong, then

44:05

what?

44:07

And if this goes wrong, then

44:07

what?

44:09

And you go down that line, and

44:09

you you ultimately will almost

44:15

certainly

44:16

end up in one of two places.

44:16

Either the end result actually

44:21

isn't that bad,

44:22

or even if the end result may be

44:22

catastrophic.

44:26

You realize how profoundly

44:26

unlikely it is.

44:30

And so you don't lose your fear

44:30

of that thing,

44:34

but it helps you reframe it to

44:34

where you're able to say,

44:39

I'm taking a calculated risk, as

44:39

opposed to I'm being completely

44:46

reckless.

44:50

Yeah, I I really like that. And

44:50

it's it's you have

44:56

to and it's it goes back to too

44:56

how I feel about like,

45:00

you know, where where life is

45:00

this year.

45:02

I've I've spent a lot of time

45:02

this year s focusing on myself.

45:07

And and this this is why the

45:07

topic that you sent me of um you

45:11

know,

45:11

intuition and truly trusting

45:11

yourself really resonated with

45:15

me.

45:16

Because that's what I've spent

45:16

the year doing,

45:17

it's learning how to trust

45:17

myself and

45:20

build up that intuition. I know

45:20

it's I've always known it's been

45:23

there,

45:24

but I've just never fully

45:24

trusted myself to the point to

45:28

you know,

45:29

start a business or do some of

45:29

the things that I have in the

45:33

works.

45:35

And it's it's just it's so when

45:35

you said that topic,

45:40

I was like, wow, this is this is

45:40

me.

45:42

I have to do this.

45:42

Oh

45:45

Yeah, and and intuition is hard.

45:50

It's it's sometimes even

45:50

poo-pooed because we can't we

45:54

can't point to,

45:55

you know, any particular fact

45:55

that proves our case.

46:00

But

46:02

If you have done the research,

46:05

if you've done the homework, and

46:05

I'm not talking about looking

46:10

under every

46:11

conceivable stone, that's

46:11

unrealistic.

46:14

If you've done the research and

46:14

the homework to a reasonable

46:18

degree,

46:20

even if you don't remember

46:20

exactly the fact that may

46:23

influence your decision,

46:26

your intuition will still be

46:26

subconsciously informed,

46:30

and you place yourself

46:33

At a high potential for success.

46:38

Yes. And and I've I in my

46:38

opinion I I think it a lot of

46:43

the intuition comes just

46:45

from experience, from life

46:45

experience,

46:48

what you've learned from your

46:48

past failures and you know,

46:52

what you're trying to pursue. It

46:52

could be also just uh you know,

46:58

data, pure data, so

47:02

Absolutely. And and our

47:02

subconscious is incredibly good

47:07

at recognizing

47:08

patterns.

47:14

Yes, yes it is. And sometimes I

47:14

I don't there's times where I

47:17

don't think people

47:18

realize that, but it's so true.

47:23

So uh

47:27

question

47:27

for you is what's what's next

47:27

for pieces of me?

47:35

So we are um we are getting

47:35

ready to launch a series of

47:40

programs.

47:41

We're doing a lot of outreach

47:41

and trying to really expand our

47:47

community both

47:48

through our newsletter and

47:48

through working groups and

47:52

making a conscious effort

47:54

to say if you're not part of the

47:54

current pro accessibility

48:01

movement, that's okay.

48:03

If you don't even know what that

48:03

even means,

48:05

that's okay. We want to meet you

48:05

where you are,

48:09

call you in, and work with you

48:09

to create the kind of solutions

48:14

that actually move

48:15

the needle. So leaning into what

48:15

makes us unique,

48:19

even if the even if the stuff

48:19

conventional wisdom says there's

48:23

no room for this,

48:25

we know there is, and just going

48:25

out there and being our bold,

48:29

unique selves.

48:33

Awesome. I I love it. I love to

48:33

hear that you,

48:36

you know, you're you're still

48:36

pushing hard and still doing

48:41

some of this good work

48:43

because we need we need more

48:43

people to,

48:46

you know, always always we need

48:46

more people to always you know

48:51

more people like

48:52

you to always find ways to to

48:52

help out people.

48:56

It's it's something that I I

48:56

feel like we don't

48:59

Yeah, we but sometimes I feel

48:59

like we also hear just the

49:02

negative in the world

49:03

and we don't always hear the

49:03

positive.

49:04

So it's always good to hear

49:04

there's still good people out

49:08

there making a positive

49:09

impact.

49:11

Well thank you. And you know,

49:11

even with that,

49:15

there's so much that if we talk

49:15

about,

49:18

you know,

49:21

learning how to stay in that

49:21

growth mindset.

49:24

Part of that is learning that

49:24

service really does come back

49:30

to us in spades. I I firmly

49:30

believe it is impossible for us

49:35

to put more into

49:37

the world than what we receive

49:37

in return.

49:43

It's that movie, it's that it

49:43

reminds me of uh Pay It Forward.

49:47

You do for some reason the what

49:47

you just said just remind me of

49:50

that movie.

49:53

Absolutely.

49:58

And so last kind of question

49:58

here is is if listeners were to

50:04

take

50:05

away one item from this episode,

50:09

what would it be?

50:13

I think

50:13

What would you want it to be?

50:15

I think it would be go out

50:15

there,

50:19

do your homework, take chances,

50:24

and in the likely event that

50:24

occasionally you fall on your

50:27

face,

50:28

dust yourself off, learn from

50:28

it,

50:31

keep going forward again because

50:31

insecurity,

50:37

fear, internal paralyzation.

50:41

They all come from that fear of

50:41

moving forward and and finding

50:44

out what's next.

50:49

of it. And once again, where

50:49

people find you?

50:55

So

50:58

Um, best place to find us,

50:58

pieces of me,

51:01

and that's P-E-A-C-E-S of

51:01

me.org.

51:04

You can find me on LinkedIn,

51:04

Daniel Hodges,

51:07

JD, M-A-K. and if you're out

51:07

there and you've liked what

51:13

you've

51:14

heard and seen, let's talk.

51:17

You know, I'm I'm not out here

51:17

just to hear myself,

51:21

you know, just to hear myself

51:21

wax philosophical.

51:25

You know, I'm hoping to

51:27

make connections through this

51:27

and you know make real impact

51:31

through this.

51:32

So, you know, please check out

51:32

our website,

51:35

get in touch. Um, you know,

51:35

let's let's build something

51:39

together.

51:40

So pieces of me, P-E-A-C-E-S of

51:40

me.org.

51:46

Yeah.

51:48

And the last thing here is we

51:48

covered a lot of uh topics on

51:53

this discussion.

51:54

Is there anything else that

51:54

you'd like to bring up that we

51:56

did not?

52:00

Just one more thing, and that is

52:00

we are never

52:06

as bad as our worst day.

52:10

You know, there's always

52:10

something else we can do to keep

52:14

moving forward.

52:16

And I think if we stay in that

52:16

place,

52:19

if we keep

52:22

trying to find that next step

52:22

forward,

52:25

it's amazing the kind of

52:25

possibilities that emerge.

52:32

Yes, that's that's true. You

52:32

just gotta keep pushing through

52:35

the hard.

52:36

And I know that if if I can do

52:36

it,

52:40

so can any everybody else.

52:40

'Cause I've I've

52:43

Really.

52:43

been in th in those dark places.

52:47

And Daniel,

52:47

yeah.

52:48

I want

52:51

I was gonna say me too.

52:54

Nope, you're good. And I wanna

52:54

thank you so much for coming on

52:57

and having a second

52:59

conversation with me. It it

52:59

means the world that you're

53:02

you're willing to come

53:03

back and speak to me. And I

53:03

really admire what you're doing

53:07

and how you've found

53:09

your passion or out there

53:09

helping people out.

53:12

Thank you for having me and

53:12

thank you for having this

53:15

conversation.

53:15

It's been wonderful. It's always

53:15

great talking with you.

53:19

And I just you know, I hope that

53:19

that your listeners have drawn

53:23

something from this

53:24

and not only inspiration in the

53:24

feel good sense,

53:29

but inspiration in the I'm gonna

53:29

take this next step since.

53:34

Yeah, by the way, if you have a

53:34

takeaway from this and you act

53:38

on it,

53:38

please get in touch. That would

53:38

totally make my day.

53:41

Yeah.

53:45

Perfect. Thanks, Daniel, and

53:45

thank you to all the listeners

53:48

out there.

53:49

If this episode resonated with

53:49

you,

53:51

please follow us and give us a

53:51

five-star review on whatever

53:55

platform you're

53:56

listening on. Thanks again.

53:56

Until next time.