The Courage to Speak Your Truth: Kath Essing on Overcoming Childhood Abuse

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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health Podcast, place for you to share your mental

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health stories.

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I am very excited for you all to be listening and I'm very excited for today's guest.

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I'm speaking with Kath Essink.

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Kath is an author and speaker who advocates for individuals to speak up and be heard.

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Welcome to the show, Kath.

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Thanks, Teris.

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Thank you.

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Lovely to be here.

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m

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It's my pleasure to have you on the show and I am just gonna go, let's just dive right in

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and I'm gonna turn the time over to you and why don't you go ahead and take us on your

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journey.

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I have just published a book this year called The Courage to Speak Your Truth and that

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book is about the remembering, recovering and reporting of my childhood sexual abuse.

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And navigating this time, couldn't find any resources for adult survivors who'd been

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through this as a child.

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So for me, it was really about creating something that might add some value and support

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other people who navigate the same things.

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Unfortunately, statistically, those numbers are high.

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It's one in three girls and one in five boys who will endure some form of sexual abuse

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before the age of 18.

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and many of us as survivors don't remember this abuse until adulthood.

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So it's an important conversation to have and in terms of mental health, I think there's a

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lot of adults walking around navigating issues with their mental health unknowingly

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related to abuse that potentially is still suppressed.

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And what, let me think of how to phrase this, but this was happening, how old were you at

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the time?

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I remembered my abuse when I was 23 years old.

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The first incident happened when I was five and the last incident happened when I was 11.

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It was someone that was related to me and that I can't name for legal reasons, but a male

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relative that was known to my parents and no one had any idea.

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I was a very happy child.

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And as I said, I kept this secret from myself for a long time too.

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I completely disassociated from the events that happened as a form of survival, which I've

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since learned more and more about in terms of trauma recovery.

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And it's unfortunately, it's not uncommon for people to navigate this way.

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It's that there are many of us are familiar with the fight, flight, fawn or freeze.

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And in this case, I took flight and I just got out of there.

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So when I came back into my body, my body still carried the memories of the incident, but

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my mind was completely separate from it.

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Yeah, I could see why that is such a traumatic experience.

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But so when you finally came out with all this information, what made you think of it's

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time, it's time to tell my story and...

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When I remembered the abuse at 23, it was honestly such a turbulent period of my life

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because putting the pieces back together of a big messy puzzle that was like felt like it

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was laid on the floor and trying to make sense of what was real, what was missing, what I

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still needed to find.

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And I feel like that I've done that in certain periods of my life.

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And then I became a parent and I guess that unvalu...

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veiled a whole new level of looking at my own abuse and I looked at it from a different

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lens and my daughter particularly, who's my oldest, was then a bit of a mirror to my

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experiences and so I needed to find out how to ensure that that was not going to impact me

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as a parent and so I felt like I channeled some of my frustration and...

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During COVID, I had some space in my life to really think about it and I didn't want it to

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impact me anymore.

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So that's when I chose to go to police and tell them what had happened and navigate the

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legal system.

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Well, that would be tough.

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Like, I'm getting just chills just thinking about it.

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And going to police, did you actually see any justice done to this individual?

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Poetically, yes, not in terms of, you know, that it's very difficult to...

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When I first went to police, they told me that about 23 % of all victims are predicted to

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come forward.

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But from those 23%, only about 10 % ever end up in the courts.

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And when they do end up in courts, it's only about 1 % that's ever prosecuted.

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So the police were very honest with me about these statistics from the beginning and I

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knew that it was going to be a very slim chance to do it.

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But I felt like for me, more so than getting justice for my perpetrator, it was about

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giving voice to my inner child and to reclaim the narrative that had been taken from me.

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And so from that perspective, I very much was able to achieve that and...

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I feel at peace with where things are at.

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If someone else was to come forward and go to police, that my investigation would be able

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to be used in their trial, or if that's where it proceeded.

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But if that doesn't happen, it's not something that I need.

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My abuser got arrested during the process and interviewed.

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So that felt important.

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I got to confront him about what had happened and...

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I think that was the reclaiming, that was the moment where I took my power back that had

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been taken from me.

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And so that to me feels like justice.

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Yeah, and I think that's important.

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Like you hit on a key phrase right there that I think is really important for people to

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understand is you took your power back.

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I just wanted to point that out because I think that's a huge piece of you overcoming this

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and healing.

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Absolutely.

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And I think, you know, at any point in our lives, whether we're children or adults and

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somebody takes that power from us, it, it, their reclaiming is part of the journey.

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And it's very significant and important when our agency was taken from us to be able to

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ensure that the soul and the self that was impacted is put back together.

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And I certainly feel in my case that I'm

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I'm lucky enough to have been able to do that through this process.

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And you mentioned that you kind of dissociated during the time like this all happened and

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did you like completely like forget that it all happened?

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And what was your kind of mental health like in those years after it happened up until you

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were able to come out and tell the police?

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Well, the reason that I remembered the abuse was because depression came knocking and I

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think that my body was trying to tell me that there was something there to pay attention

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to.

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So my body and my mind almost collided before the thoughts in my psyche were able to catch

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up.

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the depression was like evidence that there was something underneath that needed to be

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addressed.

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And so my mental health was probably the worst it ever was.

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then remembering the abuse was like a whole new trauma in itself.

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It was like ripping off a bandaid and seeing a wound that you didn't know was there.

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So for me, was really these incidents were one part of the challenge, remembering with the

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other and then going to police was a whole new beast in itself.

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But collectively,

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the process has allowed me to be on the other side of it and telling my story, it's helped

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me understand how often I kept myself quiet and contained for the comfort of other people,

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more so for the wellbeing of myself.

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And I think that both men and women do that, but it's often common for women to do that

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and make sure everyone's okay.

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You know, I was brought up being a good girl and not wanting to ruffle feathers too much

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and

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You know, and I'm done with that now.

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Take me or leave me, this is who I am.

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I think that's awesome.

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I love it.

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said too often you were quiet.

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You stay quiet from the comfort of other people.

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I think a lot of people going through your mental health problems do that.

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it's like, it's because you don't want to do it.

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Well, first of all, being vulnerable and speaking up against something you're dealing with

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is a hard thing to do.

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And then in the moment you

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do make people uncomfortable talking about emotions and stuff.

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But so I find that awesome that you're able to come above and share your story and speak

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up and help others.

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oh

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what remained there before the bridge of connection between myself and others was a wall

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that this silence created.

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And so I guess that's my recommendation to people, no matter what it is that they're

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carrying or no matter what it is that they're staying silent about.

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It can be a real barrier of connection.

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not just to others but to ourselves and so whatever that internal story is we need to face

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it in order to find that peace within ourselves and that joy in our lives.

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100 % agree with you and I always say on the show, but I'll repeat it every episode if I

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have to just because I find it important that first step to basically overcoming your

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mental health issues or depression, anxiety, whatever it is, is admitting you have a

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problem.

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So then you can take the correct steps to uncover whatever that issue, underlying issue

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is.

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Yeah.

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And I'd even go further than that and say that it's not even necessarily about admitting

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it's a problem, but just accepting that it's there.

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You know, that in my case, it was, it felt like a significant problem.

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It felt really uncomfortable.

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The depression was debilitating and it, it felt like the essence of who I was was ripped

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out from underneath me overnight.

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And I just didn't have a path forward.

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And I know that many people who've experienced depression have felt like that.

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So for me it was that not that the depression was the problem, was that what was under the

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surface was just ready to come out and that was the problem.

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That was what needed to be addressed.

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So as you were writing your memoir, was that the hard thing to do?

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it uncover too many wounds that you didn't want to open or was it more healing?

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was very healing.

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The book only took five weeks to write.

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So it was almost like a faucet, a tap got turned on and the words just kept coming and I

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couldn't stop them.

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Once I realized what it was that I wanted to say, it just evolved and created itself.

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The aftermath of publishing the book, that's been complexed because, you know, I'm having

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conversations like this over and over again.

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And, you know, and I'm also conscious of how other people are responding to the book.

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I've been really grateful that it's been received really well.

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And I've had the privilege of being gifted with so many stories of connection and

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survival.

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that people have reached out to family members they know who've been abused and never

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quite understood it, or they've faced their own stories, or they've been able to support a

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friend who's facing theirs.

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And that was really important to me when I wrote it to make sure that it was written in a

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way that was gonna serve the audience, not just about making sure it was about my healing.

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So I think I was lucky the healing was done prior to, and there's always room for more.

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And certainly, you know, there's been some bumps along the road since publishing it, but

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fundamentally, I'm ready to talk about this because it's actually not about me anymore.

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It's about the fact that I really feel passionately about raising awareness so that we can

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change the numbers and the statistics and help support those who've been through it.

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I love that.

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think that's, I can't say it's, I love it.

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Like the statistics that you mentioned, they're actually quite hard to hear because you

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really, when you think about it, you don't think that the statistics are really that high.

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Like you said one in every three females and was it one out of every five male?

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Yeah.

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our population, you know, when you do the maths and it is confronting and I think what's

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even more confronting for me is that it mirrors that in our workplaces, you know, the

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harassment against women is often one in three and similarly people aren't speaking up.

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So we, you we're all curating our stories for comfort of others or for the safety of our

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livelihood or

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you know, to ensure relationships can be maintained.

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Because 90 % of the time children know they're perpetrator, and 50 % of the time it's

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someone that's related to them.

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So this is what makes it so complicated to speak up about.

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It's not as easy as have I remembered or can I forget?

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It's what are the repercussions of me having this conversation?

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And why do you think it is that people don't speak up enough?

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Well, so many people that I know that have have lost their entire families or their

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support network.

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So I guess it's, you know, a bit like asking why a woman in a violent situation doesn't

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leave, you know, that there's coercive control involved.

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There's other people to consider.

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And it's certainly not something I'm an expert on, but it is a very uncomfortable

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conversation.

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it's, you know, there's a lot of shame.

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and related to talking about this for a lot of people.

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And so I think that before someone can navigate their own silence and shame and misplaced

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blame on themselves, then I think that it is difficult to talk about it openly.

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Yeah.

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Well, I commend you and anyone else out there that's listening that are openly talking

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about it.

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Because I think we need to find a way to do that exact thing.

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That's why I started the show, is to talk about stuff.

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Yeah.

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And look, it's, you know, and I love that you're doing this because, you know, it's

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interesting.

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Like if we have gastro or if we have a headache, you know, we're comfortable talking about

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our physical elements and needing support when something's physically wrong and fail to

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remember that, you know, any depressive illness or mental health challenge is, is a body's

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way of saying we're not okay.

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The same way that a tummy ache is.

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And yet the conversations around it are just so vastly different.

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And I think that really needs to change in the workplace, that needs to change in our

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personal lives.

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And so many people are carrying their own stories that they haven't shared.

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And so that's impacting their health, both physically and mentally.

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yeah, I agree.

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I recently was talking to somebody within my neighborhood that was going through some

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stuff.

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And I walked in the door and I was like, you know, we really have no idea like what

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anybody else is going through.

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Like too often I think about, you know, me, like, what am I going through?

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What are my problems?

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At the same time, it's not always about me.

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It should be about other people.

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Everyone's got a story.

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I really believe that and part of the program that I run with organizations is called

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Shifting the Narrative on the stories that shape us and understanding what that internal

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narrative is and understanding what those beliefs are that are driving our experience

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means that we can then get really clear on the conveyed part of ourselves, the curated

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part of ourselves, the part that shows up in the workplace, that shows up with our

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families or our partner or our children.

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And only then can we kind of start to look at identifying the gap between what we think

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and then how we act.

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And when we do that, that's when mental health minimizes.

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That's where, you know, the cognitive dissonance becomes smaller and that's when the flow

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of joy becomes larger.

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Very well said.

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So if someone is listening to the show right now and going through a similar experience of

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what's been mentioned, what's one thing that...

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Actually, let me rephrase that.

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If they're listening to the show and they have a loved one going through a similar

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experience, what's one thing they could do or say to show their support?

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I think that's a fabulous question.

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And as I said, that's why I wrote the book.

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So for me, I think it's remembering that, you know, when someone is grieving from a loved

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one passing away, there aren't rules about at what stage of grief you should go through in

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what order.

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And I think we need to start looking at healing the same way that it might be three steps

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forward and 10 steps back.

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And, and there might be triggers that occur that are really hard to understand.

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But if it's hard for you to understand as a bystander, then just know that the person

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navigating it is a thousand times more confused than you are.

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It hasn't been easy on my husband or my siblings or my parents to support me over the

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years.

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But the times that I felt the most seen are when people didn't try and have the answers

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and they just held space for me to feel whatever I had to feel.

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Yeah, at times we basically just need someone to listen to us and hear what we're going

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through.

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Definitely, and you know, one of the talks that I do about this topic that is my through

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line is that healing doesn't come from speaking out, it comes from feeling heard.

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And when we're validated and we're seen, and that starts with being able to listen to

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ourselves and hear that in an internal narrative so that we can start to get clear on what

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we want to say externally.

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Let's see, where was my mind just went?

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I had a thought after that, but you'll have to forgive me.

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It's Monday.

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if you could change, like looking back with your interactions with like the police and

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stuff, if you could change one thing about the justice system for survivors, what would it

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be and why?

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I would love for it to be more trauma informed.

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The day that I rang my abuser, I went to the police station.

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It was during COVID and we had some pretty complex lockdowns as you did in America.

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And so I went on my own and it was never suggested that that should happen in any other

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way.

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making that phone call was probably as an adult, the hardest thing I'd done.

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in terms of facing my journey.

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And only a few months before I had an issue with my shoulder.

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And when I went to get this operation, they made me sign a disclaimer to say that someone

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would be there to drive me home.

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And I remember thinking that the same should have happened that day when I went to the

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police station and made that phone call that it wasn't safe for me to be on my own.

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It wasn't safe for me to drive myself home.

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had I have not been informed about what disassociation looked like and felt like, then it

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could have been really dangerous for me to get in the car.

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So I had to ask for some support by a counsellor and I told her that she needed to put me

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back in my body.

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and that I completely exited and many people untrained to know that about themselves and

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to me that should be part of the process that emotional well-being and emotional support

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should be encouraged absolutely every step of the way and certainly in my case it wasn't.

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Yes, that's rough to go through.

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And you mentioned you've mentioned a couple times dissociated kind of dissociating from

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your body.

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I've actually gone through a little bit some pieces of this.

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And I just want to know from like what you've been through when you dissociate, like when

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you kind of come back to and realize like, you may have been gone for a while, like, do

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you remember anything?

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Or is it just like complete blur?

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For me, I had a situation recently where I had a cyst arrive in my body and the doctor was

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so perplexed and this was a week before my book was launched and she said, I don't

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understand how you're not feeling anything.

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And so I was physically, I was emotionally there, but I just had, disassociated physically

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and it wasn't until after the surgery that...

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I really found myself back in my body and in immense pain.

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So for me in that instance, it was complete physical disassociation.

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And that tends to be how it kind of plays out for me, but I'm getting more aware of it.

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And I, and I am now, you know, I've done a lot of work on that and putting the pieces back

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together.

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It is a survival mechanism.

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So it's something that I know may not entirely go away, but it is, it's

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that I do understand the signs now for myself and I have to give myself rest because I

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have a tendency to just get out of my own way so I can keep going.

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so, you know, often for me now getting unwell, I don't see again as a problem, I see it as

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evidence that I'm not listening to my body, that I need to come back into play, slow down

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and get back into myself.

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I guess that's a good way of putting it.

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And because for a long time, so I have a medical disorder, I have seizures.

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And when they first started, I found myself dissociating to get through things.

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But back then, I didn't realize this.

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What was going on was I was completely dissociating, but mine was like more mentally.

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I'd forget who I was.

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I forget people around me.

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I wander off.

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And then I come back home or somebody would find me.

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And when I came out of it, I didn't remember a thing.

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Very cool.

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Do you know you did this?

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Like, no.

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It's like, well, at the time I can't say it was scary because I didn't know where I was

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at.

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I didn't know what was going on, but, yeah, I was just curious from like somebody else's

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viewpoint of, well, kind of what's going on with you.

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Well, during the incidents of abuse that occurred, the memories that I have are a couple

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of them are actually from an aerial view.

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So I almost was looking down on myself.

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And, you know, and like with any trauma recovery, it's like little pieces of fixated

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information as opposed to a whole picture.

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So I guess that

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you know, that's the same for how it sort of shows up for me now.

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It's like, you know, I might fixate on one thing and then get frustrated by that.

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And I realize I'm just sort of shutting every other bit of evidence that everything's okay

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out.

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So, you know, that again becomes an opportunity for learning about myself and where I'm at

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in that moment.

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Isn't it crazy though how our body and our mind decide to deal with trauma though?

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It's so different for each person.

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so different.

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And that's why I always like using the analogy around grief because, you know, no two

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people ever grieve the same when they experience a loss and, and no two trauma survivors

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are ever going to navigate their healing journey in the same way.

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And, you know, I joke about the fact that for me, everything from medication to meditation

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helped me and every sort of, you know, crazy thing in between every conventional

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conservative thing in between.

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And what worked at one stage

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of my healing didn't necessarily work the next time.

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So I think really self-awareness is the greatest gift we can give ourselves and the

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capacity to really listen to what our body and mind is telling us in the moment.

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And we can only do that when we quiet the noise and you know when we sit still enough to

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hear it.

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Yeah, I very much agree with you.

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And sometimes it's tough though to pay that close attention to your body.

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But in the end, you know your body better than any doctor, any therapist or anybody else

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out there.

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That's right.

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know, and men and women go through various phases in their life, you know, that for me,

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it's, I'm at a new phase of perimenopause, which is bringing up a whole lot of new kind of

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challenges for women around me and, you know, mental health challenges and physical

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issues.

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And, you know, until you're in a situation, you obviously don't get educated about it, but

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it's interesting to see that trauma is also playing a part in showing up for people now at

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this point in their lives.

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And,

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and it's really important to be aware of what external triggers are occurring for us every

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day to give us the experience of life that we're having.

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And for survivors who are still in the thick of it, what message do you want them to hear

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loud and clear?

25:36

that it feels messy.

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And you know, I know it does.

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And some days the analogy of, you know, reorganizing a cupboard and having everything that

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you've pulled out all over the bench.

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And then you look at it, you've got to put it all back in some kind of symmetrical way.

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And that feeling of getting to the end and seeing everything in order and knowing that

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there's nothing draining energy anymore.

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It's, you know, you can't

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it's been worth all the hard work.

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So I feel very grateful.

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And just don't try and do it on your own.

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know that if you know, invest in professionals, talk to your friends, if your family isn't

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ready to hear it, then find people who are.

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And, you know, for me, journaling was really healing, like getting the words out of me,

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writing, and ensuring that, you know, I was at least hearing my own voice, even if I

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wasn't brave enough to speak it out loud yet.

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then that was really pivotal in beginning my healing journey.

26:33

And throughout your speaking and, I'll say, storytelling, how do you balance sharing the

26:33

raw truth and with the need to protect your own inner peace?

26:49

Well, I think for me, I give space to myself to protect that inner peace.

26:55

And, you know, I was actually writing, I'm doing a training next week for an organization

26:55

and I'm writing the stories this morning.

27:03

And one of the stories that I'm going to share is that, you know, I've spoken on stage

27:03

before and afterwards had 20 people in a row disclose their stories to me.

27:13

So I've had to get really clever at maintaining, you know, that

27:18

uh ensuring that vicarious trauma isn't going to impact me further in this journey.

27:23

So I created this visualization where each of their stories became like a log for this

27:23

fire between us, that it wasn't about capturing their stories for me to carry, it was

27:35

about using their stories as fuel to ignite this flame that was going to be able to keep

27:35

burning and ensure that I still had the energy to keep going.

27:43

So that's really working for me at the moment.

27:46

It just means that I can still remain holding space for people as they tell me their

27:46

stories, but I'm not necessarily responsible for carrying it afterwards.

27:56

Yeah, I love the what you just said.

27:58

And I might not say the exact same word, but wait, but using your story to ignite the

27:58

flame to keep burning.

28:06

I absolutely love that.

28:09

Yep, their story is my fuel to keep going.

28:14

That's really good.

28:15

Yeah, I like to, as I go through and talk to different people, I like to just write down

28:15

those different things that I hear.

28:23

And I always say, oh, I might use that, but I never do because I always forget.

28:29

And your own truths come through you in the moments you need them, so...

28:33

Yeah, for sure.

28:37

And so what's

28:41

What's been the most moving feedback that you've received since publishing your book?

28:48

I had a woman reach out to me to tell me that her brother had been incarcerated and had

28:48

years of drug issues and she was estranged from him but while he was in prison he

28:59

remembered some abuse that occurred by a school teacher when he was eight years old.

29:03

And so after she saw me speak and read my book she reached out to her brother and they've

29:03

since reconnected and he's read my book.

29:11

And so there, you know, I feel really humbled by that because that was the motivation for

29:11

writing it was that for it to be a bridge between people and an opportunity for deeper

29:21

understanding of ourselves and others.

29:24

And so the more stories like that that I hear, the more I want to keep going as I know

29:24

that this is an important conversation.

29:31

And even when we find peace, we can still have moments of sadness and

29:36

darkness that creeps up on us.

29:38

So the more we talk about it and the more we talk about looking after our own mental

29:38

health and and seeing the signs in ourselves and others that need to be noticed to avoid

29:48

catastrophe then I think that the you know the more healing that will occur.

29:55

That's amazing that somebody reached out to you and told you about their brother and it

29:55

reconnected them.

30:02

It's crazy, dude, like how...

30:06

health stories like that when we hear them as like the creator, how it just really pushes

30:06

us to keep moving forward because something like that is so important.

30:17

Absolutely, and also encouraging parents to be braver with the conversations they have

30:17

with their children.

30:22

You know, my children know my story and they don't know details of my abuse because it's

30:22

not relevant, but they know my story enough to know that I will always be there to hear

30:35

whatever concerns they have.

30:37

And I think it's really important for parents to teach their children to trust their

30:37

instincts about people and

30:42

You know, my mom was devastated when I told her what happened to me because it never

30:42

occurred to her that she'd have to warn me about someone that she trusted.

30:51

And I guess, unfortunately now we know statistically that we do.

30:55

So being able to teach children about, you know, self agency and to advocate and trust

30:55

themselves and their instincts.

31:02

I think that's the important conversation.

31:05

It's not about scaring children, but it's about preempting the fact that, you know, we

31:05

don't know what

31:12

what they're going to face and with whom and so it's just really important for them to

31:12

know that there's a safe place for them to come to talk about any concerns they have no

31:21

matter how small.

31:23

Yeah, I think it's important to basically give your children the same space and have a

31:23

voice.

31:31

And, let's see if I can think of how to phrase this without.

31:37

So with, your child, sexual abuse, do you find, let's see, try, I don't know how to say

31:37

it, like in my head it's there.

31:47

So you'll just have to bear with me.

31:51

Do you find like it may have like,

31:57

kind of pushed your parenting style a different way than what it could have previously

31:57

been.

32:04

I do, but in a positive way.

32:07

So I think that what it's done, certainly I've been protective of my children and I, you

32:07

know, I've had this conversation with my daughter where I've said, you know, there's, I've

32:16

been very selective about where she has sleepovers and, but she's never known that.

32:23

And I guess what it's done is for me to have provided a really happy home for my kids to

32:23

want to be in and then we have kids come to us.

32:33

I've really built some very trusted relationships with people around me so that I can let

32:33

them have that freedom.

32:42

And as long as they feel safe to keep talking to me, I know really that's all I can

32:42

control.

32:47

unfortunately, and really healing my own story so that it's not the story for my children

32:47

to have to carry on my behalf.

32:55

That's been my motivation and to ensure that the intergenerational trauma ends with me and

32:55

that their experiences are vastly different.

33:05

Yeah, that makes sense.

33:08

I heard the story, I think it was a couple of years ago, but it was that this guy had told

33:08

his daughter that she couldn't have sleepovers until she was 18 when she could officially,

33:19

you know, was adult and could make her own decisions.

33:23

So she turned 18, you know, she always complained to her dad like, well, why not?

33:27

Like everybody else is doing, going to be part of that sleepover.

33:31

It's a big thing.

33:32

He's like, no, no, it's just not happening.

33:34

So when she turned 18, she had her first sleepover, a big group of girls, and she called

33:34

him up that night and said, Dad, I want to thank you.

33:46

And she said, well, what did I do?

33:48

She said, you saved me.

33:50

And he's like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

33:53

And she continued to tell him that in that group of girls that they were talking about

33:53

childhood sexual abuse.

34:02

and how many girls in that group had actually been abused.

34:05

And she was one of the only ones in that group that had not been.

34:08

And it was because her dad put those extra rules as she was growing up.

34:15

And I just thought that was really touching to hear something like that.

34:19

Yeah, and look, you know, that's where I think we just, we also need to teach our children

34:19

that it's okay if they go somewhere and feel uncomfortable that they can change their

34:30

mind.

34:30

and um that's why, you know, we've had kids who've come to our home that's very safe and

34:30

who've just decided they want to go home for different reasons.

34:39

And their parents are so embarrassed.

34:41

And I say, don't be embarrassed.

34:43

Like this is, this is great parenting because they feel safe enough to

34:47

say they're tired or they don't feel well and they want to go and they know that you'll

34:47

respond well.

34:52

Like this is what we want, this is how we teach our children to stand up for themselves

34:52

and others.

34:57

So I think that the more permission we give our children to be honest about how they're

34:57

feeling, then the greater chance they have of avoiding situations that they think they

35:08

can't get out of.

35:11

Yeah, very true.

35:12

It takes a lot, especially as a teenager, to stand up and walk away from something that

35:12

you're uncomfortable with.

35:20

It's tough.

35:21

you know, even as a child in primary school, seeing bad behavior and knowing when to stand

35:21

up for other people and when to step in and the same applies in the workplace.

35:31

It's very complex at times when we see and just accept bad behavior around us and everyone

35:31

else seemingly is accepting it so we don't say anything.

35:40

But this is unfortunately how the bystander effect impacts environments and individuals'

35:40

experiences within that environment.

35:48

So I

35:49

think it's really important to speak up when it feels right and and to teach other people

35:49

that it's safe to do the same.

35:58

And speaking of speaking up, I have a question kind of deals more with the legal side of

35:58

things.

36:04

So when somebody finally decides that they want to go and share their story with the

36:04

police, what advice do you have to give to them?

36:17

In my book I do talk about how there are a few things I wished I had have known before I

36:17

stepped into this process.

36:24

The first was that

36:26

Part of the reason that it couldn't proceed to trial was that the language that I used in

36:26

my witness statement was different to the language that the three women that I'd confided

36:38

in in my twenties used because the only word I could find at the time was abused.

36:43

And obviously the language changed over time.

36:46

And so I realized that had I have gone to police when I first remembered and just given

36:46

them a statement and said, this is what has happened and this is

36:54

what I've remembered, but I'm not ready to do anything about it.

36:58

That might've been the difference between proceeding to trial and not.

37:03

So I think people need to understand that the police are there as a resource and that just

37:03

because we enter the police station doesn't mean we're locked into an 18 month

37:13

investigation.

37:14

At any time I could have put press pause on what was going on.

37:18

At any time I could have taken a break.

37:20

And I think that that's important for people to know, because I didn't know that.

37:24

And I was quite overwhelmed by the concept of how much time and energy this was going to

37:24

take from my life.

37:31

Yeah, I could see that side of it.

37:34

watch, I love true crime shows, so I watch enough to kind of see how things happen on both

37:34

sides of the spectrum.

37:42

And I could see that being really daunting to go in and tell your story.

37:49

Yeah, look, and for me, it was almost a bit of an out of body experience, to be honest.

37:53

I just kind of found myself at the police station one day after I'd taken my kids to a

37:53

justice march and just had this realization that...

38:01

that I was promoting justice to my children and speaking up and advocacy, but I actually

38:01

hadn't done it entirely for myself.

38:09

So that was my motivation at the time.

38:12

I had no idea what the process would entail, but from there it was complicated.

38:18

And COVID was a very complex time.

38:20

So I never met any of the detectives face to face.

38:23

A lot of it was online over the phone.

38:25

that...

38:26

was problematic, but it was also there was space to do it and to just feel it all and to

38:26

navigate it in a way that maybe I may not have been able to if life had been busier than

38:36

it was.

38:40

And I've said this before, but good on you for pushing forward and coming to terms with

38:40

everything that you've been through.

38:49

I truly admire what you're doing and how you're trying to bridge that gap between

38:49

survivors and everything.

39:01

I think it's really neat.

39:02

Thank you.

39:03

And look, as I said, everyone's got a story and this issue is one that impacts a lot of

39:03

people, whether it's because people have experienced it themselves or like the story you

39:14

shared about the 18 year old girl, they will know someone who has experienced this.

39:20

whether it's surviving or being a supporter of a survivor, this is one of those situations

39:20

that we potentially won't go through life not having been impacted by.

39:32

So I think that's even more reason to talk about it and even more reason to shift the

39:32

conversation with children early so that we make sure that it happens less to the next

39:43

generation of children.

39:45

And, you know, ideally is, you know, eradicated completely, but at least, you know, have

39:45

people who do this held accountable and, you know, and, and just protect those that are

39:57

most vulnerable in our society.

40:00

Absolutely agree.

40:01

So what's next for you?

40:04

It's going to be more writing, continue speaking, advocacy work.

40:08

Yeah, a lot of advocacy around this issue and workplace training around harassment and

40:08

giving voice to minorities in organizations who without them we'd lack innovation and

40:21

diversity.

40:22

And so it's really important that we just give voice to those that maybe haven't been

40:22

taught or have been silenced because of particular societal

40:32

kind of structures, but you know, I'm really passionate about everyone sharing their story

40:32

and that learning from those stories and teaching each other from those stories.

40:41

you know, mine's just one of a big tapestry of stories in amongst what I hear and I just

40:41

feel forever humbled by learning about the different challenges people navigate and

40:51

learning from how they navigate those challenges.

40:54

So yeah, just the more I tell stories, the more I hear them and the more I grow.

40:59

Yeah, isn't that really cool to let just to learn how other people navigate the issues

40:59

that they're going through in life?

41:09

because I find myself all the time after I've heard somebody or after a podcast is over,

41:09

like, you know, I never thought of it that way.

41:19

But you gave me a new perspective.

41:21

You gave me an idea of something that I want to try and do.

41:25

It happens all the time.

41:26

Yeah, it's amazing.

41:28

And that's life, know, every day you can grow and learn and evolve.

41:34

I trust that there's a lot of growth happening from people reading my book.

41:38

My book's also on Spotify and Audible.

41:42

So if people want to listen to the story being narrated, then it's on there too.

41:45

And I, you know, sometimes learning comes from obscure places and often I've learnt the

41:45

most through stories that are completely unrelated to my own challenges.

41:55

So I think that, you know, resilience and courage just is one of those universal things

41:55

that we can learn from no matter what the story.

42:04

very well said.

42:07

And I just have kind of one general question left here for you.

42:13

I ask everybody that comes onto the show because I love to hear the different feedback

42:13

that I get.

42:20

What is the biggest stigma in regards to mental health in your mind?

42:28

I think the need to silence people about their personal problems in the workplace.

42:35

and you know that it's safer for people to say they've got a migraine or a stomach ache

42:35

than they need a mental health day, that they're overwhelmed and they feel unwell

42:46

emotionally.

42:47

And I think that once that changes then we'll have a much more well-rounded society when

42:47

we give each other permission to be honest about you know that my son he's 10 and I gave

43:00

him a mental health day the other day and my husband thought I was crazy but I

43:04

just want him to know that occasionally we just need to kind of have a rest emotionally

43:04

and mentally from the world and if that means watching surfing on YouTube for a couple of

43:16

hours and then getting bored and wishing he had a go on to school then so be it because he

43:16

hasn't asked for a day off since and you know sometimes taking a break before we need it

43:26

is exactly what the gift you know we should be giving ourselves is.

43:30

Yeah, I like that.

43:32

And it's I think that's important too.

43:35

And you made me think of like, of myself, like, I didn't hear of somebody taking a mental

43:35

health day or admitting it was a mental health day when it came to like my professional

43:42

career until I it was about three or four years ago.

43:47

Some person I worked with would just say, taking a mental health day, just not caring how

43:47

it's perceived.

43:52

And I now thinking about it, actually

43:56

admire that because not everybody can do that.

43:58

I know I can't.

44:00

Like I have been able to.

44:02

But like, I'll, I have no problem like, you know, calling in sick or saying I'm not going

44:02

to be online for a day.

44:11

I mainly work from home.

44:13

But I don't always tell it's a mental health day.

44:15

But like I'll be open to my wife being like, you know what, she's like, why are you not

44:15

working?

44:19

Well, I'm taking a mental health day.

44:20

She's like, okay, that sounds good.

44:24

it's crazy isn't it because I think most of our physical elements stem from our emotional

44:24

state anyway so indirectly when someone says to me I'm just exhausted and had the flu I

44:35

just think I wonder what's sitting underneath that uh but that's not how everyone

44:35

perceives it.

44:41

It's crazy how much our mind and body are so connected.

44:45

You don't really know that though until you start looking into some of this stuff.

44:50

That's another conversation in notice self.

44:55

And see just two more things here.

44:58

Where can people find you?

45:01

My website is called www.bespeak.au and that's got all my social media handles on it.

45:11

So that's probably the easiest place to go.

45:13

And then they can follow me on Instagram and LinkedIn.

45:16

And as I said, my book's available in America on Amazon and Booktopia.

45:20

So if you want to grab a copy, then that can happen over there and in that respect or

45:20

listen to it on Spotify or Audible.

45:30

Awesome.

45:31

And last one here, is there anything that we did not discuss that you would like to bring

45:31

up?

45:39

No, I think I've really enjoyed our conversation and I...

45:45

I just think that, you know, that where I'm sitting at the moment in my career is starting

45:45

to understand that so many of us internal stories are impacting our external experiences.

45:55

And, and, know, we're playing a lot of that out in our workplaces.

46:00

So, you know, you asked what I would change about the legal system.

46:03

Well, probably what I'd change about the corporate world is the capacity for people to be

46:03

more honest about their stories and bring more of themselves to work than is acceptable.

46:14

Because I think once

46:15

We ensure that everyone is authentically themselves and that's when we bring the best out

46:15

in people and that's when innovation and success will drive all the things that are

46:25

important in business like profitability and growth.

46:28

So I think that the more we can get comfortable with the uncomfortable, the more we can

46:28

succeed in life.

46:36

Yeah, but very well put.

46:38

And I had a manager that used to tell me, if you're not uncomfortable, you're not doing it

46:38

right.

46:45

So he would always throw me into like these situations that I have no idea what I was

46:45

doing, but he had the faith in me that I could do well and that I'd overcome it and figure

46:55

it out.

46:56

But, and they turned into some of my biggest like growth opportunities.

47:01

Yeah.

47:03

Awesome.

47:03

Well, Kath, thank you so much for coming on the show.

47:06

I enjoyed our conversation as well.

47:08

And I think it's been an important one that many listeners will get a lot of insight out

47:08

of.

47:14

Thanks so much, Travis.

47:15

I really appreciate you having me.

47:17

And thank you to all the listeners out there.

47:19

Thanks for taking the time to tune in.

47:21

Please subscribe, like, review, and share our stuff.

47:25

It's the best thing for us right now is just to get our name out there.

47:29

Thanks again for listening.

47:30

Until next time.