Understanding Self-Sabotage and Anxiety in High Achievers | Albert Bramante

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Hello and welcome to Overcome a Mental Health Podcast.

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I am your host, Travis White.

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It's a place for you to share your mental health stories.

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I'm very excited to introduce tonight's guest.

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I'll be speaking with Albert Primonte.

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Albert is a seasoned talent agent with more than two decades of experience in the

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entertainment industry and also holds a PhD in psychology from Walden University.

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Albert, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much, Travis, for having me on.

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I'm really happy to be here.

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The pleasure is all mine.

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I think we're going to have a great conversation.

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And I'm not going to waste any more time because nobody wants to hear from me.

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Why don't you go ahead and tell us about your journey?

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Well, I was kind of born in a very peculiar situation.

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I was a different one in my family.

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And when I say different, I grew up in a blue collar family.

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My brothers, I I'm the of five.

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My brothers, you know, were all athletes.

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My father was a football coach.

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My oldest brother was a football coach.

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And they were all into sports, lived, read.

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know, believe whatever athletics.

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For me, couldn't didn't have any interest, both as a player and even as a spectator.

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You know, just didn't do anything for me sports.

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help, but I enjoyed reading.

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I enjoyed thinking I was a thinker.

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Always was still am.

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And so I was always a deep thinker as a child.

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And I think that's what really led me to study mental health, because

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You know, I was a loner, you know, and I wasn't bullied as a child.

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was really had a good family and I really had, you know, acquainted to the associates and

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I really had friends, but I never really, I wasn't picked on or ridiculed or bullied in

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any way.

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But I found myself as a loner being, you know, spending a lot of time in the library.

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So a typical 15, 16 year old kid might not be reading books like, you know, How to Wood

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Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie or

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The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People or Feeling Good by David Burns, which were all

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very popular in early 90s when I really started reading this stuff.

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And I just became so thrilled and captivated by you in mind.

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I think just my whole curious nature and attraction and deep topics really led me down the

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rabbit hole of you could call the mental health aspect of things.

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At the end of my sophomore year, I said, I really want to major in psychology.

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I mean, a declaration.

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and I wanted a PhD.

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That was my goal.

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And I reached the goal, of course, but I knew since I was a teenager what I wanted to do.

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Now I was also interested in creative arts too.

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So in high school and college, I was very much involved in all these different

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organizations.

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And high school, including the Drama Club.

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And so I was very much involved in the performing arts world, not really professionally.

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And at that time I really

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didn't know I had an interest in it.

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It wasn't until like years later when I was working out in the field after I received my

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master's degree, I started doing some work around 9-11, work crisis intervention,

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counseling, and all of the important things.

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with that, and so really that's where most of my work came into play professionally.

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So it was the start of my professional career.

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And I started working with actors alongside of doing the social service work.

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And that's what led me to become a little bit of an actor myself, dabbling a little bit

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into it.

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Realizing it wasn't necessarily for me, but I loved being around actors.

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So I started the business to kind of support actors along the way, know, representing

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them, serving for jobs, you know, being as, you know, starting my own agency.

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And so that's how I, how I got started as an agent.

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And during this time, I also began, started teaching and I also

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decided I would go back to my PhD.

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You know, I was already halfway there.

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And I didn't know what was gonna happen in my life.

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I wanted the insurance plan of having a doctorate.

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And so I went back to school and then I started wanting to study because the one thing

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that kept, the theme that kept popping up in all my work, whether it being college

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professor or a talent agent was the theme of self-sabotage and self-defeating behavior

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that just kept

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coming up.

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was witnessing this with lot of actors I was working with and I was also witnessing with

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students I was working with.

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You know, my class is just a high degree self-sabotage, so I really wanted to kind of

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study this, you know, to kind of like figure out what was going on here.

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So my doctoral dissertation was on self-defeating behavior and performing artists.

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And so that was a way of like really blending all my worlds together, you know, the mental

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psychology world with show business.

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So

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And that's kind of like where I am today.

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then several years after, you know, my PhD, I wrote a book called Rise Over the Script.

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And yeah, it's been kind of like, you know, one of the spaces I've been working a lot now

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is like performance mindset and getting people that, you know, help them get out of their

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own way, recognize self-imposed limitations and things like that.

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Yeah, makes sense.

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it's the whole like showbiz side of things.

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It's like these people are high achieving people.

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Why do you think so many high achievers, it takes them, it's almost like some people have

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to hit a brick wall before they can start healing.

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Why do you think that is?

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Well, a lot of it is survival, lot of it is self-protection, a lot of it is

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self-protection.

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And especially, you know, it really depends on that person's past because if there's

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trauma, if there's any type of childhood trauma, the brain goes into overdrive protection.

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Our brain protects us.

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That's its purpose.

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The nervous system in the brain, it's really its sole purpose is to protect us and to keep

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us safe.

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Yeah, that's that.

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what it did years ago.

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If we were back in the hunter-gatherer in the end of those days, we had so many things

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thrown at us that were dangerous, life-threatening, every day.

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And it wasn't until many years later, of course, we were a lot safer, but our brain is

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still doing the same thing.

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So a lot of times, if we're thrown with any perceived danger, which is any change, any...

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stepping outside of the comfort zone, our brain says, okay, regroup, we've got to abort

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the mission, a sense, whatever that is.

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And so a lot of times it's self-sabotage, it's a self-protective mechanism.

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Yeah, and I could see that being that way.

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Like it's, it totally makes sense.

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While we're talking about like the high kind of achiever, I have another question in

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regards to that.

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So high pressure careers such as acting and entrepreneurship, what do you see as the most

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understood aspect of high functioning anxiety?

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Well, again, I would say anxiety is also self-protection.

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And fear is what keeps us safe.

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I that's what keeps us alive.

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You know, to avoid anything that could be potentially dangerous.

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Unfortunately, nowadays, that can be working on overdrive.

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So it can sometimes work against us by protecting us from the very things we need to do.

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And that's where the anxiety trip builds in because it's

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It is a survival mechanism.

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There's no way that anybody can escape life without feeling any type of anxiety.

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That's unrealistic and actually dangerous because there are times where you have to be

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vigilant.

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And that's where that whole fight or flight mode gets activated to protect us.

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the only thing is if we have experienced a child to trauma,

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And I don't necessarily just have to be sensational childhood trauma to just be, you know,

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other siblings were favored over than you were as a child.

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could have been that maybe you had to really fight hard to get your parents' attention and

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love.

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Maybe you were ridiculed by your teachers a lot.

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So little things like that add up over time.

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And then what we call like micro traumas.

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And eventually, what they can do is add up and then eventually your body is just in a

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constant

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you know, state of fight or flight mode, which is where, which is what it, you know,

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triggers anxiety.

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Cause anytime we have a peak in anxiety, it's really a rush of cortisol, which is the

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adrenaline, whatever you want to call that, to prepare our body for fight or flight mode.

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Yeah, interesting, interesting.

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It's, yeah, and it's, that's the word I'm looking for.

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Well, these people, they're like, when they realize something's wrong, and what do you

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think are the first steps?

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What would you say are the first steps to start your healing journey?

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I would say the first step is to first recognize that this is happening because most

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people that are in that mode of self-sabotage or self-protective mode don't really get a

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clear picture of what's going on or really have clear insight.

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They might just think, okay, these are opportunities that seem scary or that seem not

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worth my time or whatever it is that the brain messages your brain will tell you.

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And then I would also kind of say it gets through incredibly easy.

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to stay safe, be in your comfort zone, and to talk yourself out of things that may be a

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bit uncomfortable or scary at the moment.

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So it's one thing is to kind of work, you know, we have to work against it, fight against

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that a little bit, because it's easy to talk ourselves out of doing things.

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I how many times have we talked ourselves out of doing something that was great, even if

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it was going to the gym or going to exercise, we talked ourselves out of it.

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I'm too tired today, I'm aching.

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Whatever it is, your brain tells a story to get, and it's all protective, it's all

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protective.

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And it's doing its job, your brain.

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So the one thing I would kind of say, the first steps would be to realize that this is

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happening and then B, work a little bit harder every day to do something a little bit

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different or, you know, do little things that slip outside your comfort zone.

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Maybe go to a networking event or, you know, even if it's online.

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Initially virtual event, you know do something where you're meeting new people and it's

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not entirely threatening because when you go to these events everyone's there and meet

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other people so it's not like You're approaching people totally cold so but it's still

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something that requires you to put yourself out there and Little things like I would say

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like that I do little things each day that will Kind of push the needle and do something a

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little bit different

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Because a lot of people sit and expect their life to change, but they don't do anything

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about it.

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You know, they sit there year in and year out expecting their life to change, but they're

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not changing themselves.

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We have to change first and then everything else around us will change.

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Yeah, and it's so true.

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it's, you said one thing that I really absolutely love, and I think I've mentioned it on

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the show a couple times, is recognizing that you have a problem, that there's something

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going on.

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Because I think about myself with my own mental health problems, if I would have never

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admitted that I had a problem, there's so many different things that I know that I would

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have never taken care of.

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Right, right, absolutely.

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And that's whole thing too, like, the knowing the stage is very important.

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And to understand that this is a, you sometimes it's like, all we are doing is telling

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stories to ourselves.

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That's not true.

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And we distort a lot of things.

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We delete, we distort, you know, the important information.

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You know, like I work as an agent and a lot of times,

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you know, an actor may not get a job and then they'll immediately assume, well that

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casting director, that producer doesn't like me.

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And I'm like, well, did they tell you that?

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Well, no.

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Well, how did you come to that conclusion?

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You know, and that's where I'm like, you just jumped from like A to Z without.

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So, I think the important step is also not to react and to also really consider

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You know, even the stuff that we get that may not be the best news possible that or when

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situations or things that we put our mind to don't go our way.

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It's to really do a deep dive and figure out, okay, is there anything in work from this?

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Is there anything that can be educational here?

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Is there anything that maybe I'm blowing this out of proportion or telling a story of

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something that doesn't even exist?

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Yeah, in that type of situation, I had to raise my hand and say guilty, because I've told

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myself multiple stories that aren't true, like, multiple times.

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Yeah.

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do that.

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And I think the first thing is just to acknowledge that this is a reality that most of the

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time, we're telling stories about what we think has happened or perceive what happened.

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And that's not really what happened.

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mean, more or at least the charge of it is the emotional charge is a little way to

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activate.

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Yes, you're exactly right.

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And you being in a high achieving job yourself, have you ever, like, do you ever find

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yourself struggling with anything like this, like what we've been discussing?

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Have you?

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there, you know, I can't, I gotta call myself out.

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mean, yes, absolutely.

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there were times even when I was in my, you know, finished on my VHC where I thought for a

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moment, I can't do this.

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I'm going to quit.

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I'm going to stop, you know, because, you know, but what kept me going was, you know,

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after, first of all, was not reacting in emotion because a lot of people sometimes react

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to a rash, you know, when they're

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when they're in an emotional state.

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And that's the worst time in the world to actually act out on something because we're not

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thinking logic is not coming into play here.

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So once I would calm down and read episodes, realized, okay, well, number one, I still got

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to pay back my student loan debt whether I quit or not.

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I might as well wait through it to at least like have something.

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to make it worthwhile that I'm paying for, not for a waste of several years.

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And this is really what I wanted to do.

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I I think for me, the frustration wasn't the coursework.

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I enjoyed the coursework.

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I enjoyed the research.

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It was a dissertation that really threw me for a loop.

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And I spoke to a of PhDs and they all said the same sentiment, that it's really that part

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of it that really is the...

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the bane of the existence right there.

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it's something that we all go through.

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And I think that was also what helped me was like, it's normal for people to want to quit

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here, you know, like at the age of two.

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And I just kept pushing through and eventually, you know, obviously I came out the other

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side.

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But I can tell you if I did quit, A, I would have been safer, but I would have been

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delivered with regret.

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Yeah.

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uh

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towards later part in life, when I'm like, I had the opportunity for a PhD, I never took

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it.

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And I was like, no, I don't want that.

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And then also, even putting my book together, that was a big thing that was preventing me

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holding me back.

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I would always sit for several years and tell people, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna

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write a book.

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Because I had a dissertation, was like, well, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna write a

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book, I'm gonna write a book, I already had something.

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But I just, I wouldn't do it.

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I would sit in front of a blank piece of paper, a couple of sentences, read them, get

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unhappy with them, delete them.

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And nothing.

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And I'm sitting there going like, first I was like, well, maybe this isn't for me.

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You who am I to write a book?

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You know, imposter syndrome, well, you know, and that's where, you know, finally I said,

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it's gonna be another situation.

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I'm gonna regret it.

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I had the opportunity and I, if I didn't take that, I would have, I would have really

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gotten unhappy.

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It would have been much safer, safer route to take, but it would have been, you know, a

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situation that I would have regretted on.

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And when I talk about regret, you know, this is why I tell people all the time to do what

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they want to do or live their dreams.

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Because the true nature of regret is not the foolish decisions we make or the stupid

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things we've done or the foolish things we've done.

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The most sort of anguish for people that are like towards the end of their life is missed

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opportunities.

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Regret.

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Things that they could have done, but they didn't because of fear or

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comfort and now it's too late and they want to you know absolutely regretting it.

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So that's what I would say is the biggest source of regret is doing things and you know in

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a sense and you know not doing things that were presented to you.

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And for you, think the most important thing is you push through all the hard and got to

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where you're at.

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it's, I think that's important.

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So with your, with the people that you work with, say call them your clients, are there

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like common tools that you see that, or methodologies that you see that have worked across

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the board to help them kind of change their mindset?

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Well, I think reframing is important.

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I think that's the biggest thing is, you know, reframing, you know, and two areas that

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like that I really like to give tools for reframing is the idea of failure.

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Now, in my work, you know, one of the statements that I liked was there's no such thing as

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failure, only feedback.

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And then because that signifies that you fell forward.

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That every failure is a learning experience and one step closer to success.

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And that's a perspective I think we can all take.

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And the other one is, and I read this set of a book, you know, can't, there was no person

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who quoted this, but it was a really brilliant quote.

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And it was, there's no stitching in rejection, only a simple reminder that our services

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are not needed today.

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So I think if we can look at the no's, because very rarely when we get told no whether

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it's in a business or any other type of situation, it doesn't mean that ever, it just

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means not now.

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So you don't get the job, well it's just not now.

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That's not the right timing for you.

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So it keeps us in that growth mindset perspective.

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Those two things alone really perpetuate what we call the growth mindset.

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And so that's extremely important.

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Another couple of tools that I would say, not necessarily a tool but a behavior, is you

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want to start really cultivating social relationships with people

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that are going to support you in a positive way.

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So a peer group and accountability group, people that are gonna really support you and

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build you up along with themselves.

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Because another thing that can really prevent us from moving forward is the crowd we keep.

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We're around negative people all the time.

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Well, then we're going to become negative ourselves, and we're going to start becoming

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bitter and cynical ourselves.

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not necessarily a tool, but a behavior is to really start associating yourself with

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people.

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Other types of things I would say is a keeper journal.

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I kind of call it like the happy file, but it's like a modified gratitude journal where

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you write down everything good thing that's happened to you.

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And you just spend a lot of time documenting that.

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That could be you got praise from an audience member, or praise on a job interview, or

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praise from a customer, or a former person who worked with you as a client.

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Any time you get positive feedback or people that are above you that give you good rewards

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report, you document it and you just keep documenting it in your file.

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And then you have this long file.

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And then now when you have moments of self doubt or when things aren't going your way at

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the moment, you just pull out your happy file and it's kind of like keeping you connected

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to the world around you.

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So the happy file is another tool that I would really recommend.

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Another important tool is your calendar.

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And this is what will help you keep momentum.

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A lot of people will hear people say, you know, someday I'm going to do this, someday I'm

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going to do that.

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And, know, one day I'll get to this and one day.

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And my response is someday and one day are not on the calendar.

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I don't see that anywhere.

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The important thing is to start, you know, and this is what helps you accountable and help

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me accountable too with like writing my book is

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Okay, so when will chapter one be completed by?

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You know, what date?

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Whatever the goal is, you start breaking it down and okay, and what date will you commit

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to having this done?

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And you, you know, if you're working with something like this, this is where you say,

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okay, you pull out your calendar together and say, okay, give me a date.

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not someday I'm gonna do this because it'll never happen if you don't if you if you talk

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about it conceptually rather than realistically so the very simple tool the calendar and

22:40

most of the stuff is are simple but yet powerful you know they're very simple techniques

22:40

and they don't take a lot you know much brain power to really implement but they're very

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powerful

22:54

Yeah, I agree.

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And you touched on a couple of things that I think are really important.

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Community.

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I've said another thing that's been brought up a few times on this show is it's so

23:00

important to have that group of people in your corner when you're working through changes

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in your life, especially when it comes to mental health.

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But I would go even beyond mental health.

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just think in general, like that community is really, really important.

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uh

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Setting goals like setting goals like that's something that I've been working on this

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year.

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It's I had to do for this podcast I I feel like before like I've had this idea if I wanted

23:25

to talk to people and I wanted to talk on mental health Just because I've struggled so

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much with it But for the longest time it's just an idea and I was like, okay At the very

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beginning of this year.

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I was like, okay, I need to write down goals of Where I want to be in like a year from now

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Mm-hmm.

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I'm slowly getting there, but it's still, I'm still pushing through and doing it.

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And then the last thing I want to touch on is the journal link.

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I actually read a study.

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I can't remember exactly what it was, but I'll tell you kind of just the basis of it.

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Like it was, there was some study done somewhere.

24:12

I can't remember exactly where, but it was people.

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if you journal at night and write down your thoughts, especially the ones that are kind of

24:17

weighing on you and weighing you down, if you do it right before you go to sleep, you'll

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actually be able to fall asleep quicker and you'll sleep better.

24:32

Yeah, well yeah, and that's because you have a clear intention and I think that's Why you

24:32

know generally you writing things down is very very powerful and you know even if you plan

24:44

your day ahead of time saying okay tomorrow this is what I plan on do you know what I want

24:44

to have done and You map that out you map out the day before

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Now yeah, there are chances where you get sidetracked and things will get thrown at you

24:53

that you didn't plan for, but you're more likely to complete something when you outline it

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and when you declare it.

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It's like you're putting it out there.

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You're putting it out in the universe.

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So that's really important to consider there too.

25:16

I love it.

25:16

I love all this stuff.

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It's just...

25:18

I don't have any PhD or any background in it, but it just...

25:23

It just like...

25:25

All this mental health stuff, it just almost puts like a fire inside me to...

25:31

I just love hearing it all.

25:33

There's so many different things.

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I feel like a lot of people too...

25:37

Just talking in general, I feel like we get into autopilot and we kind of get in this

25:37

state that we're just stuck kind of on repeat mode and we're just doing this type of thing

25:50

because we have to and we're just...

25:51

How can someone begin to recognize that they're operating on autopilot before it's too

25:51

late?

25:56

Well, the main thing is in our pile, it's kind of like, if you ever seen a movie like

25:56

Groundhog Day, it's like very similar to that where the same, you know, days were just the

26:07

same, you know, not, you know, it's like you just, you're going through emotions, but

26:07

nothing's improving.

26:13

And, you know, every day is starting to blend together.

26:16

And so that would be the first clue.

26:19

Like, you know, it, cause usually as human beings, we're supposed to do is every month or

26:19

every

26:24

You know couple months.

26:25

We're simply getting better at what we're doing We're so to evolve and and become stronger

26:25

and more powerful and we're leaving more successful So if you find yourself like staying

26:36

in the same area for six months to a year or even more than that that might be an

26:36

indication that you are in autopilot and How many times have you pushed things that you

26:49

wanted to do on a backburner?

26:52

You know, and said, you don't have time for it or, you know, it's right now, I'll do it

26:52

later.

26:58

And so procrastination.

26:59

So if you find yourself being a major procrastinator, that might be an indication of your

26:59

normal pilot.

27:06

So, and that's a time to really do some self-reflection because most of the time when

27:06

people, it's not due to lack of time when people procrastinate, it's because of the lack

27:20

of belief in themselves or

27:22

Again, they're recovering from their own trauma.

27:25

So it's like, that's where we'll keep you in that negative loop of procrastination

27:25

constantly.

27:32

Yeah, I have been known to be a bit of a procrastinator in my days, so I can highly relate

27:32

to what you're saying there.

27:43

It's like, once I push past it, I'm usually fine.

27:50

It's just like, just do it, just do it, just do it.

27:54

Yeah, well, and that's the whole thing too, is just take action.

27:57

And that's where I think, you know, every day I would say put, you know, make a commitment

27:57

to do one action.

28:04

It doesn't have to be a large action.

28:06

It doesn't have to be, you know, anything substantial in the beginning.

28:10

Even small actions over time, you're going to build and eventually, you know, you're going

28:10

to really start reaching these, you know, magnificent milestones by taking, you know,

28:20

consistent daily small actions.

28:23

So I would definitely suggest that, taking small actions.

28:27

Yeah, and it's funny that you say that because I feel like over this past year, the small

28:27

actions that I've taken, I'm actually reaching further now to take bigger actions since

28:39

I've taken all these small ones.

28:40

I'm like, you know what?

28:41

This is a little bit more out of my reach.

28:43

But I just achieved this.

28:45

I just hit this milestone.

28:47

What if I push a little bit harder and just go a little bit further and do a little bit

28:47

more?

28:55

Right!

28:55

you know, it's just, it's all about just taking these small actions and, and you know,

28:55

taking one step, okay, now you did this, now let's do this, and let's do that, and let's

29:05

just keep building, and then, you know, that will stop you from living in automatic pilot,

29:05

because now you're doing something different.

29:13

And once, you know, the interesting thing about momentum is once you start, it's hard,

29:13

it's hard to stop.

29:19

You're not gonna stop.

29:21

Because now you get one step, like even for me writing my book, once I wrote one chapter,

29:21

the next chapter was written, the next time, then a third, and then eventually, you know,

29:29

I had to manage to read it for an editor.

29:32

So, it takes time, but, you know, the important thing is to take that action.

29:37

And, yes, it's gonna be a little uncomfortable, it may be a little scary, and that's okay.

29:43

You know, and I think this is where you have a good support now, where it doesn't kind of

29:43

guide you through that.

29:48

Like,

29:50

And then it's okay to be a little scared.

29:52

Because the more you do that, and we can even reframe anxiety or fear, because if you look

29:52

at fear, the emotions of fear and excitement, they're the same symptoms in the body.

30:06

The butterflies in the stomach, the elevated heart rate, breathing heavy, even sweating a

30:06

little bit.

30:13

But instead of saying that

30:14

you know, it's anxiety, what if we were excited instead of excitement?

30:19

So you're not nervous to give that speech, you're excited to give that speech.

30:23

You're not nervous to approach this person, you're excited to approach this person.

30:27

So, and I think the important thing is like, okay, we may have the reaction, but that

30:27

doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be bad, that it has to be nervous.

30:36

So I think getting uncomfortable with just that sensation.

30:41

And referring to it as excitement, will kind of help you, propel you and move forward.

30:48

Yeah, and that's actually a great way of putting it, because I've never personally thought

30:48

of it that way.

30:53

Because I just think, this is fear, this is nerves.

30:56

But like, because I think you're right on the spot.

30:59

Like, if you reframe that as excitement, there's so much more.

31:03

There's a lot of power to that.

31:05

Yes.

31:08

Absolutely.

31:09

There definitely is a lot of power to that.

31:12

And I'd love for you to give us like you have your book out.

31:16

ah

31:21

Rise above the script, I want to say.

31:25

Would you be able to give us a synopsis of that?

31:28

Sure, well it's kind of a roadmap about self-sabotage and helping understand the different

31:28

facets behind it.

31:35

So I talk about self-esteem and I talk about, you know, obviously we've been talking ad

31:35

nauseum about self-esteem, I, you know, it's important anyone to address.

31:45

I talk about the consequences of low self-esteem, but also I talk about how sometimes

31:45

having what I call toxic high self-esteem, which is like a syndrome for arrogance or

31:54

pompousness or

31:56

or elitism in the sense where do you think you're better than everybody else and how that

31:56

can be a form of self-sabotage because very often it's fragile high self-esteem and the

32:08

reason why it's fragile high self-esteem is because it's most people they don't like

32:08

getting any critiques at this point or they get really frustrated or mad when they're

32:21

criticized or when people don't share that.

32:26

high view of themselves.

32:28

So, but that can prevent you from moving forward a big time because you're not coachable

32:28

and you're not able to learn.

32:35

And then I have a whole unit on self-advocacy.

32:39

Now self-advocacy is a term that's used in the community, health community that refers to

32:39

your belief in your effectiveness in doing something.

32:49

So, you know, it's important to have a, especially a reformer.

32:54

or any type of professional that you have belief that you can be effective in what you do.

32:58

It's a little different self-esteem is more global this is more specific you know to what

32:58

you're doing.

33:03

And then I talk about personality factors and one of the major models I go into is what we

33:03

call the big five.

33:10

Big five traits which are openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and

33:10

neuroticism.

33:17

And every human being

33:20

has a varied degree of these five traits.

33:24

Now, lay the groundwork of how they're important for dealing with self-sabotage.

33:30

For one thing, we need to be higher in openness, because that means being creative, that

33:30

means having, being able to look at things from other perspectives, being open-minded.

33:40

Consciousness, which is one of the biggest predictors of success, both vocationally,

33:46

academically, personally, professionally.

33:49

And that refers to your discipline, your focus, your determination, your business sense.

33:56

And so what we really need to be doing for anybody is to really increasing our

33:56

conscientiousness, our ability, productivity, then extroversion.

34:06

Now that doesn't necessarily mean we have to be left at a party, but in order to be

34:06

successful, we have to be able to communicate with people.

34:14

And at least you're moderately comfortable with that.

34:17

And then agreeableness means how coachable are you?

34:20

How open are you to trying out new things or being guided or led by somebody else, which

34:20

is very important.

34:28

And then finally, neuroticism refers to, sounds a little harsher than what it is, but what

34:28

really is neuroticism purely means is how reactive you are to stress.

34:37

So if you're a person that gets anxious very easily, then you might be more higher on the

34:37

neuroticism trait.

34:45

versus somebody who's very laid back would be low in that.

34:48

And why is this all important?

34:49

Because when it comes to self-sabotage, one of the biggest things that kept coming out in

34:49

my doctoral research was the relation between high neuroticism and low conscientiousness.

35:00

So when you combine both of those traits together, somebody who's, you know, has a, you

35:00

know, kind of a low discipline focus, but high propensity for anxiety, that's gonna be

35:11

perfect storm for self-sabotage.

35:12

Again, because that requires high degree of self-protection.

35:17

So that kind of gives us like, now we can have an open conversation here about what we can

35:17

do.

35:24

And then I talk about fear of success, you know, because I have a unit in my book on fear

35:24

of success.

35:30

And again, this is not a type of fear of people who are saying, hey, I have fear of

35:30

success today.

35:35

Everybody's chasing success.

35:37

What's really more scarier is the outcome.

35:41

or the responsibilities or whatever is lying on the other side of success.

35:45

Maybe a change in your identity because our identity is very important.

35:50

More responsibilities, more pressure.

35:53

That can be scary for a lot of people.

35:57

And then also relationships.

36:00

one chapter I wrote on relationships where I mentioned how a lot of our success

36:07

will impact the relationships around us, both in a positive and sometimes in a negative

36:07

way, if somebody in our life is threatened by our success.

36:14

And we see this sometimes with successful people, is their family or their friends might

36:14

look at them in a negative light if they're dealing with their own insecurities.

36:27

Like who does he or she think she is by thinking they're better than us.

36:30

And you may get messages like that.

36:32

Of course, since we are loving human beings, we're gonna get affected when we hear that in

36:32

some way.

36:39

And so therefore it's like, maybe I am too ambitious.

36:42

Let me step back.

36:44

What really is going on is they're the ones that have to really work on themselves not us

36:44

and then another thing that I talked about like one of my last chapters is your view of

36:55

money how do you be what's your relationship with money because if Now everybody's

36:55

probably so I love money.

37:03

I maybe you do consciously But then I would say do you really?

37:08

because if you grew up with sometimes these messages that we've got

37:12

from society, from religion, from our family that money is evil or money is corrupt, you

37:12

know, only corrupt people are rich or only greedy people are rich.

37:22

You know, our money is a root of all evil, which is a lie because that was never the

37:22

initial quote.

37:27

That was misquoted because it was the real quote was the love of money is a root of all

37:27

evil, not money.

37:32

Money itself is a neutral concept.

37:35

So, but if you have the subconscious belief that money is radioactive or dirty,

37:40

or repulsive because of what you were told.

37:45

Then therefore, your brain is going to do is as soon as you get it or end up close to

37:45

getting it, either get rid of it or stop it from getting it.

37:54

So that's the biggest form of self-sabotage right there.

37:57

Because a lot of times when people, what self-sabotage will often happens, people are very

37:57

close sometimes getting to what they want, getting to their goal.

38:07

But then they either make a mistake or they do something that just completely throws that

38:07

out the window.

38:17

And it's hard to understand that and that was one of the lessons that I had to really

38:17

learn as it, you when I was beginning really my psychological studies, is how people are

38:29

sometimes comfortable and even want to stay in that victim mentality.

38:36

So the moment that anything comes that remotely means that they're going to be successful,

38:36

they're going to throw that away because it's scary.

38:43

It's like, well, I don't want to deal with that.

38:45

Because initially I don't want to give up my victim status or whatever that is.

38:49

so that was one of the biggest things I've learned, especially in the mental health

38:49

community.

38:53

A lot of people don't like getting better because the idea of getting better means a

38:53

change in identity, more responsibility, whatever that is.

39:04

Yeah, so cool.

39:05

Like I love all this stuff.

39:06

It sounds like you're going to say something else.

39:09

I was just going to of completely wrap that all up with my book.

39:13

The message is really just ways to get out our own way.

39:17

Because most people, when you talk about the psychology of people are going to say, I love

39:17

money, I want money.

39:22

But do you really?

39:23

And why do you think we see some of these people who hit the lottery or maybe celebrities

39:23

or athletes that get a major deal and now they're worth millions and then two or three

39:35

years later or five years later they're in more

39:38

debt than they were when they started because they didn't budget their money properly they

39:38

just got rid of it as fast as they could.

39:47

Yeah, I've heard that story multiple times before with people who make that type of money.

39:56

And I do want to touch base on one thing really quick though, the victim mentality.

40:02

I remember a day in therapy and my therapist told me, you need to stop being the victim.

40:09

But the funny thing is, for the longest time I didn't know I was being the victim because

40:09

I didn't see it that way.

40:15

And then when he explained all the things I was doing that made me look like the victim, I

40:15

was like, okay, this makes sense.

40:22

Like I've never seen it that way, but now that you explain it, like I know what I have to

40:22

do.

40:29

Yeah, and it's not about blame it.

40:32

It's really about just taking responsibility, you know for even the things around us

40:32

because I'm never specifically between responsibility and blame, but it's like You know,

40:44

no you're you're a survivor, you know, even if you have even if you suffer the trauma I

40:44

don't really like the word trauma victim.

40:50

I like the word trauma survivor because It's like no you don't have to be victim.

40:55

Yes.

40:56

What happened to you is unfortunate or

40:58

the situation might have been unfortunate, but that doesn't mean that it has to stop you

40:58

because very often what happens in the victim mentality, you start revictimizing yourself.

41:08

It's just a constant, like, you're just gonna keep, you know, self-harming yourself, maybe

41:08

not, you know, physically, but psychologically, mentally, guess.

41:18

And there's times though that I would say that self-harming yourself psychologically is

41:18

just as draining and as bad as, can't be just as bad as like harming yourself physically

41:31

just because the damage that you do to your brain and it's so easy to do.

41:35

Yeah, well and but also, you know, the psychological wounds last a lot longer too and it's

41:35

harder to to really pinpoint them because you know and and I give this other example to

41:46

that, you know, when we were kids, especially my, you know, generation, one of the nursery

41:46

rhymes that we were told was or the slayings was six and so they break my bones when names

41:58

never hurt me and that's not true because you know the first part maybe to

42:03

But names will ever hurt me.

42:05

Names can hurt even worse than those six and zones can.

42:08

Because when you talk about a mental or psychic injury, there's no bounds there.

42:13

At least with a physical injury, you clean it up and you heal it and it's gone.

42:20

But not a mental or emotional injury is invisible.

42:28

Yeah, that's for sure.

42:30

And it's like, there was, there's some things that came up with therapy and it's like, I

42:30

didn't even know I was battling them.

42:40

And it's like, it's been years and years of me trying to battle them and overcome these

42:40

things.

42:46

Most of them are just going back to some medical issues that I had.

42:51

It was like, didn't know I was internally withholding this or holding this type of thing

42:51

until it was brought out.

42:57

I was like, wow, it's taken this long to get past that.

43:03

Right.

43:04

Yeah.

43:05

Well, a lot of people are walking around for years, you know, getting insights.

43:09

And so that's the first step is once you know that this is a problem or that this is an

43:09

issue, that's the first step of getting better progress.

43:22

So I'm going to turn this kind of...

43:24

go ahead.

43:25

I cut you off, go ahead.

43:27

No, I'm done.

43:28

So, go ahead.

43:30

I'm gonna turn this back to you.

43:32

More of a personal question.

43:34

How has helping others deepened your own sense of purpose?

43:39

Well, the biggest thing is it gave me a sense of purpose.

43:44

mean, really what, you know, it helps me stop feeling sorry for myself or stop, you know,

43:44

the rut or feeling like I'm not important because I'm like, no, I am important.

43:55

I need to help, you know, I'm here to help other people too.

43:58

So I, and that's one of the biggest things that really can help people get out of a rut is

43:58

to go out and help people, you know, go out and volunteer.

44:08

Because believe it or not, volunteering really activates such positive emotions when we're

44:08

giving back and helping the community.

44:19

And I know some colleagues of mine that are psychologists that will actually prescribe

44:19

charity work as a way to kind of get over that rut.

44:30

very often, lot of times, number one,

44:34

you're helping other people, but also you're getting out of the house and you're actually

44:34

socializing with people.

44:41

When you have a you know an anxiety or mood disorder one of the things that you really

44:41

don't want to have is for a lot of free time and downtime because then you start

44:53

ruminating and They and they just get faster in these thoughts And whether they're you

44:53

know thoughts you know anxious is the thoughts or depressing thoughts.

45:04

They just keep circulating in the brain and You know for me.

45:08

I've dealt with depression through my life

45:10

you clinical depression.

45:11

It's not fun.

45:13

But I felt like, you know, when I got that sense of purpose where I can help other people,

45:13

it was a sense of, it pulled me out of that.

45:22

Because you really can't be feeling sorry for yourself when at the same time, being

45:22

helping other people.

45:28

Just, you know, it's like, they cancel each other out.

45:32

So it's a good thing, you know, in a sense.

45:36

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

45:37

it's, let's see, where was my thought going now?

45:46

That's where it was.

45:47

Okay.

45:48

Sorry.

45:49

My mind just, I hit a brick wall for a second there.

45:55

sense of purpose.

45:56

Like I think that's another important thing to kind of throw out there because until you

45:56

like,

46:05

Sometimes I feel like until you find that purpose, it's easier to get stuck in these kind

46:05

of autopilot or burnout modes, whatever you want to call them, because it's like you're

46:17

not living for anything.

46:19

I mean, you are, but if that makes sense, I don't want to say you're not living for

46:19

anything because you could be, but.

46:29

No, you are absolutely.

46:31

mean, and that's whole thing.

46:32

It's like when you, you know, now you have a purpose to live for when you're helping other

46:32

people because usually when you're in that loop of depression or anxiety, you start to

46:42

feel that your life is meaningless.

46:44

And that's a very scary thing, place to be at.

46:47

But when you're something to help other people, gives you that purpose.

46:51

So now your life is meaningful.

46:53

So you go from meaningful, from meaningless to meaningful.

46:56

Yeah.

46:57

And I remember another point I was going to speak about came back to me.

47:00

You had mentioned that, you know, like when you have time, too much time on your hands,

47:00

you get stuck in these modes of overthinking and anxiety or depression.

47:11

just keeps getting worse and worse and worse.

47:14

Oh, I can't count the minute how many times that's happened to me, like personally,

47:14

because I've, I mean, it's like, I just think of like,

47:27

you

47:28

to have more work to me and I was like okay do they do they not like me why are they not

47:28

giving me more work am I not worth it am I not good enough and then all of sudden this

47:38

last month it's like all piled on I was like okay I was just thinking dumb thoughts that

47:38

make no sense

47:46

Yeah, well and that sometimes happens though is that you know we start to you know rule

47:46

and once you realize that they're just thoughts because You know the on a daily basis They

48:00

say we have 70,000 thoughts that enter our brain from know what we wake them on we were

48:00

sleeping so We don't necessarily have to pay any mind to them doesn't mean just because

48:10

they enter our brain or our head

48:12

does not mean we have to pay attention to them or give them any energy.

48:16

So, and I think the important thing is to understand that that's all they are, thoughts.

48:22

And just as fast as they entered our brain, they can exit.

48:26

And I think that's the important thing.

48:29

I totally agree with you.

48:31

And just a few more questions here.

48:34

So in your line of work, you you hear all these stories of, you know, what's going on in

48:34

other people's lives.

48:41

And some of those I would imagine could get kind of hard to listen to.

48:46

What practices keep you grounded while you're kind of dealing with all these other

48:46

people's emotions as well?

48:53

Well, number one thing is self-care.

48:56

mean, taking breaks.

48:58

know, I may not plan sessions back to back.

49:03

You know, I want to give myself a little bit of a break.

49:06

Even with something simple like a grounding ritual where I'll just sit and prepare myself

49:06

and kind of like even put in my imagination a little bubble around me.

49:18

Then I'm not going to get affected by that.

49:21

what they tell me.

49:22

can still be, you know, show empathy, that doesn't mean I'm going to be affected by it or

49:22

let it bring me down.

49:30

So.

49:32

make sense?

49:34

All right and kind of the last main question here then is follow up if you follow up

49:34

things.

49:39

If there's one message that you hope a listener listener takes away from this conversation

49:39

what would it be?

49:47

that we have the chance to really become better, and that we are enough and that we all

49:47

have the answers within us.

49:55

A lot of times we let fear take over, uncertainty take over, but if we can remove all of

49:55

that and just listen to our intuition and listen to our inner guidance, we can achieve a

50:07

lot.

50:09

I absolutely love it.

50:11

And where can people find you?

50:13

So you can find me on my website albertbramonti.com.

50:16

You can also find me on LinkedIn under Albert Bramonti.

50:21

yeah, feel free to chat to me.

50:23

I'd love to get a hold of you and we can have a conversation.

50:28

And also check out my book, you know, on Amazon and social, Bed, Balls, and Audio book.

50:34

So yeah.

50:36

Thank you.

50:38

And last thing is we covered a lot of ground here.

50:42

Is there anything that we did not discuss that you would like to bring up?

50:47

Um, just again, you know, I would just say that we can be our own worst enemy, you know,

50:47

if we allow it to happen.

50:56

But again, just thinking of yourself as a creator, not a victim is the most important

50:56

thing.

51:04

Absolutely love it.

51:05

Well, Albert, thank you for coming on the show.

51:08

I really enjoyed our conversation.

51:10

Well, thank you, Travis.

51:11

I really appreciate you having me out here.

51:14

And thank you to all those that have listened.

51:17

Please, if this resonated with you, please share it and you can find us on all major

51:17

podcast platforms.

51:24

Thanks again for listening.

51:25

Until next time.