Why You Keep Having the Same Fight With Your Partner: Anger, Resentment, and Repair | Davina Hehn

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What if the thing hurting your marriage, parenting, and mental health isn't anger itself,

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but the way you've been taught to handle it?

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Today I'm joined by therapist and anger intelligence expert, Davina Hehn.

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We talk about parenting, communication, conflict, and why understanding your anger could

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change your relationships.

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If you've ever lost your patience with your kids, argued with your partner, or struggled

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manage your emotions this episode is for you.

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And if you enjoy it, please leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify

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because it will really help us out.

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Enjoy the show.

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Davina, why don't you go ahead and tell us about your journey?

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It is a long one.

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but what I'm incredibly grateful for.

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So my background is in traditional therapy.

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I was trained as a therapist.

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And while I was getting my master's, I just realized how much we focus on symptom

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management as opposed to the skills-based work that that mental health has to emphasize.

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And so I graduated feeling like an utter failure.

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with six figures of debt and had no idea what I was gonna do with it.

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And my master's was in forensic and counseling psychology.

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And my husband and I were having a good amount of conflict at the time, weren't managing

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it very well.

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He was hulk smashing through walls when he was angry.

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And so I found an anger management certification in an attempt to infiltrate our

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relationship from within and try to like fix his temper without taking a more formal route

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that he hadn't been open to at the time.

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And that's where I found anger management.

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I went through the certification and I realized how much of a problem I was.

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That while he was an external expressor as men tend to be, I was an internal expressor of

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anger.

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And I would shut down and I would emotionally punish.

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And I didn't quite realize at the time how problematic I was because he took all the

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spotlight.

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And so little by little over time, I started out with court order, and then I've slowly

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kind of migrated into this

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anger intelligence framework that builds off of anger management, but creates it more like

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learning a new language as opposed to this suppression, control, elimination of anger like

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traditional models tend to use.

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That's that's really interesting and it's it's um 'cause I I myself am looking to get into

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like some of the I I have some anger issues.

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I'll be completely upfront and honest.

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Like it's just like in those moments where something doesn't go how I see it, it just sets

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me up and it's like I fail all all the time.

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But I'm just curious what what did your marriage I w I'd love to dive deeper into this.

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What did

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Your marriage looked like then compared to now.

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my gosh.

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it was so rocky.

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It was so rough.

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We always had this underlying foundation of being very good friends.

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We were a few we were friends for a few years before we got together, and we do genuinely

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like each other, which is also why it made it so hard when we entered into conflict.

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So it was really high highs, really low lows.

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And what I thought was a very close

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Intimate relationship in terms of emotional safety and those types of things, I learned

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just wasn't.

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We spent so much of our time going out and experiencing things and drinking and kind of

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doing things that really kept us distracted.

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And as much as we love each other and loved each other and were in love with each other,

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there was just so much of that that we hadn't quite learned how to do, which was to handle

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conflict well.

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So overall I would say that it was mostly good.

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Except after we became parents, it all kind of came crashing down.

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It placed pressures on us that we didn't expect.

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The fears came through.

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The man that I'm raising children with now is not the man that I married, nor am I his

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wife the same.

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And so what ended up being a whole bunch of turmoil and crisis in between has gotten us to

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this point where now we are steady and we communicate.

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We are we

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Have gotten a really good rhythm and we've been able to lead with more curiosity and

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really rewrite the narrative that we had for each other for so many years that just kept

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us so trapped and bogged down.

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And so now I'm very proud of ourselves.

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We were five years into marriage when everything kind of crumbled, and we're now five

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years outside of that crisis and feeling very steady and to an to a point within our

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marriage that I hadn't really seen anyone else do yet.

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And that's been really exciting is figuring out what works for us and leaning really hard

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into that, even if it looks relatively untraditional to other people.

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That's actually really cool that you guys decided to, you know, fight the good fight and

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push forward to learn how to communicate and get over this and work your relationship out

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because I feel like too many couples give up too soon.

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And I'm not saying that sometimes it's not needed because I believe it doesn't always work

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out.

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Yeah, I mean, there's always gonna be those outliers where it's it's clearer that you'll

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be you'll be better off separated.

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He and I very seriously discussed separation five years ago.

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We had kind of things in plan, a a very basic kind of custody arrangement of how we would

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do things.

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And then ultimately we had this one of many, as you know, when things are really wild, you

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have so many conversations and

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There was one in particular where both of us felt like we would be doing ourselves and our

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kids a disservice by not trying.

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And so we kind of radically accepted that we were going to have to rewrite the entire

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thing as opposed to try to save anything.

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So we used our friendship, this underlying basic, this, this, this respect that we have

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for each other as the foundation.

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We laid everything out on the line.

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We shared things that we had been.

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Keeping either secret or, you know, lying by omission, these kinds of things, we really

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chose to lean into some radical transparency and really adopt so many of these skills that

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allowed for us to see it through.

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And it was just so rocky.

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And every time I work with a new couple who's especially within this phase, it reminds me

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of how awful that time really was.

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And now looking back, of course.

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bird's eye view, everything zoomed out.

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It doesn't seem like it was so hard, but it's just we forget how how tough those moments

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were and how many times we felt like we wanted to call it quits and didn't.

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Yeah, for sure.

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And i first of all it's hard to learn how to openly communicate and be vulnerable.

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But second, I feel like parenting like bringing kids into the mix, you know, it changes

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dynamics and it basically changes you.

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So, you know, you you are suffering from more lack of sleep and trying to watch out for

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another human being and it

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Sometimes that lack of sleep and all that is such a challenge and it doesn't uh flow well

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with the relationship of your partner or your significant other.

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Yeah, I mean entirely.

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It I really struggled with postpartum depression.

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And what I've been able to understand about it so much was that I don't know that it was

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so much of this chemical imbalance, likely hormones and all of that, absolutely.

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And what I think was a more major contributor was the expectation versus reality part.

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That we expected this to be glorious and wonderful and magical, and you'll hold your baby,

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and everything will go so smooth, and you'll just feel so complete, and you'll know that

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your identity is just so rooted in being a mom.

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No, oh like it did not happen like that for me at all.

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Nothing came naturally.

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I was terrified.

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I didn't like it.

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It was just so much work and so much more raw and so aggressive and terrible.

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And I felt so much of a robbery.

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Like I felt so robbed of this opportunity that everyone told me that I would have.

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And then the guilt of how I was actually feeling in comparison to how I'm supposed to feel

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ended up really creating this this massive shame cycle within me that I didn't quite know

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how to do, just even within myself.

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And then we have my husband's whole issues on his end and then hours together as a couple.

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And it just rocked us.

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And the fact that this isn't more widely spoken about and warned about is a disservice.

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And I it's why I will continuously explain parenting is a bit of a bait and switch because

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we're told all these really wonderful things and then it happens and it's like, well, here

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you are.

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Yes, for sure.

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It's totally a bait and switch and it's I I'm trying to think of how to say it.

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It's uh some of it is so unexpected because you know, before you have kids like I had a uh

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have a ton of nieces and nephews, so I've grown up with being around babies and stuff and

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changing diapers, but the thing you don't understand until you're a parent is

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looking after a small human being for twenty four seven and if there's a problem, that's

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on you.

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It's it's no longer like with the niece and nephew, okay, well they have a dirty bum.

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I'm gonna give them back to their parents to change.

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I can just but now it's it's on me.

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I have to deal with all that stuff.

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But for my wife and me, I think the ch biggest challenge was the lack of sleep at the very

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beginning of every single uh kid that we've had.

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And it just caused, you know, more bickering and a little bit more arguments to happen,

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more disagreements.

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So you you really have to figure out as a couple what works best for you.

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Totally.

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And there are so many just skills that we just aren't taught in how to navigate that, how

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to move through with expectation management of these things.

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And it is, gosh, I just look back on that time and just realize how ill-equipped we were

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to be able to attempt to navigate that really well.

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The sleep deprivation was gnarly.

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We're so much more reactive.

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Our amygdala is constantly assessing for threats.

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And when we're at all sleep deprived, it's in hyperdrive.

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So nothing your partner does is good enough.

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Everything your child does is devastating and awful and hard and challenging and all of

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it.

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And then everything just keeps getting harder as things go.

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And it's one of those things that in retrospect, I wish we would have had a better

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opportunity to navigate to manage those expectations a little bit better so that when

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I'm up nursing and he's snoring and I'm staring daggers into his face and feeling super

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righteous.

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I wish I would have had more of the wherewithal to know what to do with that emotion when

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it was really raw, instead of just acting on it in like a very feral way.

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Yeah, I completely agree.

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And what to those people listening, what advice would you give to new parents to kind of

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navigate that whole newborn phase, I should say?

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Yeah, I would suggest that they take their days slowly, drop expectations within a certain

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realm and remember and constantly reinforce that you are a team and this is why you did

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it.

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This is temporary.

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There's so many things that when we're sleep deprived, the train has left the station,

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it's off the tracks.

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It's so hard to bring ourselves back.

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And the advice that I would give, that I was given by my grandmother.

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Was not to make any major decisions in your marriage within the first five years of

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parenting.

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And it was that advice that I kept referring back to.

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And again, not that there aren't outliers that warrant it, but more so than anything, we

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aren't the same versions of ourselves.

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We are these sleep-deprived, exhausted, terrified, overwhelmed, full of fear versions.

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And those don't get to make decisions for the next 50 years for us.

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Mm.

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Yeah, for sure.

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And it I I you just reminded me of when we were trying to navigate it with our first.

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Because we're we're I wanna say non conventional parents, we we co sleep.

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'cause our first we we tried to we got this little cradle thing and sh we put our baby in

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there and she just would not calm down, like no matter what we tried.

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So we were getting one of two hours of sleep.

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Then we got this little thing to go in between us so the baby could stay safe.

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Yeah.

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And the first night we put her in there, she slept for four to five hours straight.

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And it's like, you know what?

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It's I I I'll I'll do it, I'll have it.

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Like I'll I'll figure out how to sleep with a baby next to me, I'll do it.

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If it means that I'm gonna get the sleep that I need.

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Totally.

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And that's what I think it is.

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Like there was so much pressure to do things as they say that we should.

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Right.

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It was I breastfeeding was just not something that worked out naturally for my body.

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I wasn't built for it.

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And my son also had a terrible latch.

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And so it it became this value system for me, this identity thing, this identity piece

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that said that if I wasn't breastfeeding, then I was somehow failing.

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my son and I placed so much pressure and stress on myself, on my body that I couldn't even

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be present for him.

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And then for me to get to that point of ultimately letting it go, it felt so fraudulent

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and it felt like I was giving up on him, on myself.

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It was just so rough.

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And whether it's the co-sleeping or breastfeeding or how you maneuver any of this, so much

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of it just has to do with what works best for you.

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And ultimately coming to that decision between the two of you, we're assessing for risk,

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we're we're making those choices.

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And even though plenty of people will disagree, there are plenty of people who also live

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similarly and can see the benefit.

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And even if no one agrees with you, if it's working for you and again, everyone's safe,

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then there's nothing wrong with it.

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You know, there was just all of this.

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Everything was about putting our child on their back and then our

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elder son, he had reflux, it was this terrible experience.

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And then finally one night I put him on his tummy and he slept eight hours.

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And I said, We're never going back to putting him on his back.

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Like it's just not gonna happen.

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yeah, we had it we one of my sons, my oldest son too has reflux uh when he was a baby and

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he was the first we didn't figure it out though for a while.

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It was like at least three months.

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So he every other kid I've been able to soothe for the most part, like as a newborn and to

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give my wife like some time to sleep or do whatever.

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And he just was so hard, like I most of the time it was like thirty minutes and I'd have

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to give him back.

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so he could go feed again.

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But once we figured out that he had a reflux problem, we got it taken care of and knew how

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to handle it better.

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And a lot of it was laying him on his stomach and holding him a certain way.

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Yeah.

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But again, there was just so much unknown.

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There were so many shoulds that then it just felt like each time I asked for help, it was

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an ad an admission that I was failing.

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And there was it was a shameful experience to tell people, I don't know what the fuck I'm

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doing and help me.

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And I it even myself being in the mental health sphere, I was it took me a year of

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struggling and suffering within postpartum before I finally advocated for myself.

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And it is one of these things that we just gaslight ourselves into thinking that we

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shouldn't advocate, that we shouldn't express what it is that we have going on in fear

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that we will be that one who just isn't cut out for it, who isn't strong enough for it,

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who isn't a good parent.

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Oh yeah, for sure.

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But I uh what I've been through, you totally have to advocate for yourself.

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And it actually took me a lot longer than a year to figure that out because I was it was a

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fear thing as well.

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But I'm glad that you were able to realize it and do what you needed to do to get through

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it.

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Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's also different.

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For us, for for the mom, we are we're still checked on, like, how are you?

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It's mostly about baby, and then at the end it's like, how are you?

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And then we answer, we're fine.

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For dads, it's a much different experience because you're not allowed to have the focus be

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on you.

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It's almost like mom just had this, she went through this whole experience.

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This is more of the mom and the baby show, and like just be who you need to be for them.

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And there isn't a lot of advocacy.

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For you guys, especially postpartum.

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Yeah, for sure.

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And it's it's it's tough too.

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I'll be totally up front.

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It's it's 'cause the uh like I wanna I wanna mention first though that I I wanna say that

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the woman's body is absolutely incredible.

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Like the you know, to push out a child and do what it does to uh grow the child and

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everything, I don't wanna put anything down like that.

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Like and I don't want anybody to listening to think that I am.

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But yeah, yeah.

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But I I do agree that there's there's not a lot with the when it comes to the men because

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uh it's like every kid I have, I'm I um I'm lucky I get six weeks off at the company I'm

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at right now.

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Paid.

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So I'm lucky that I get the paternity leave that I do.

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But it's

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changing diapers, I'm taking care of three other kids.

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I'm doing all the laundry dishes, like all the household chores where usually split it.

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So it gets it gets a little bit tough and it's like by the end of the day I'm just

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completely burnt out.

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I mean my wife's pretty good at like, okay, well, I'm sorry that you have to do all this

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but it's like but I feel like she's taken so much time taking care of me through my

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medical problems that

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It's my turn to take care of her, but it doesn't come without its price.

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Yeah, I mean I think it's it's all a measured risk at any given point.

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And there's certain times that I will carry now that our kids are a little bit older,

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they're nine and six, there's that that sometimes I carry more of the mental load and the

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emotional load.

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He takes more of the physical load, right?

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There there becomes this and one of the biggest pitfalls we've we fall within is the

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comparison.

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There just isn't one.

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Each time that I would get resentful and feel as if I was putting in more in all of these

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things, he was also battling something that I didn't understand nor recognize.

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And from the outside looked not super distressing, but it was what he was experiencing

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internally.

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And we have also had the beautiful privilege of switching off on being stay-at-home

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parents.

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And so once I went to work and he became a stay-at-home parent, it

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completely shifted the narrative where when I was home with the kids, I I was just

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constantly angry and resentful and bitter and envious that he got to go to work all day

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and be away from the house and have this identity and not have to wonder where the kids

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were every time he went to pee.

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Right.

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Like that was something that I deeply envied.

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And then

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he would have this notion that like you get to be home all day and like you get to watch

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TV and you get to do this and you know there was so much of all of the you get to's in

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each other's roles without either one of us fully absorbing and recognizing, appreciating

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all of the things that we had to do and didn't want to and weren't the luxury, weren't the

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benefit.

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And we both have ultimately agreed that being the stay at home parent is by far the the

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worst one.

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It is the the hardest one.

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But had he not experienced that firsthand, had I not been the working parent and and

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experiencing that firsthand, we I fear we would have just missed the mark because we would

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have thought that we needed to live it in order to fully understand and appreciate it.

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Yeah, it's it's rough.

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It's I just think of times like even right now, I told you at the very beginning we have a

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four week old baby and uh I I just each time like or day I take off to help my wife out,

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like when she's sick or whatever, and I have to take care of the kids and do everything

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that she does on a daily basis, I can't keep up.

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But she can.

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She can do all this stuff and manage it well.

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And she's like, You'd be a horrible

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like stay at home dad.

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It's not that you're not a good dad, it's more that you can't do all that and keep the

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house clean at the same time.

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I was like, that's very true, but that's why I I work and I'm with the provider.

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Right.

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And that's why I think that the rules work so well.

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That's why my husband and I both work now, because we both need the separation, our own

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identity outside of it.

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And we also just adore our sons and really love being present with them.

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And so there's a give and take to all of it, but it's again just finding the groove that

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works for you.

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And oftentimes what I constantly picture in my head and I share with people so often is

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this image that I saw a few years ago of

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A man, a woman, a mule, and luggage.

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Have you seen this image?

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It's like a cartoon looking.

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So it's it's split up into quadrants.

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And each of those four are within each quadrant.

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But in one, there's the man on the mule with the with the woman next to him holding the

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luggage.

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And then the caption is, look at that man who's putting himself above above this what a

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woman, what a terrible human, right?

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And then the next one is the woman on the mule.

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And then the caption is, look at her degrading her husband, forcing him to carry her

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things behind him, right?

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And then the next one is both of them on the mule.

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And the caption reads, my gosh, look at them abusing this poor animal.

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And then the fourth one is neither one of them on the mule.

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And look how stupid they are for not utilizing the mule when they have it.

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And it and it's this thing that I'm constantly picturing is that everyone's gonna fall

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within one of those four.

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And realistically, no matter what, we're going to assume.

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And pa cast judgment on people based on one little glimpse, one snapshot of how we see

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them utilizing their resources.

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And so every time I worry about what people might think, whether it's conventional, uncon

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unconventional, traditional, weird, whatever it is, it's all right.

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There's no matter what, there's gonna be people who fall within each of these four and are

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gonna tell me that no matter what I'm doing, it's wrong.

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Oh yeah, I can't I can't tell you how many times that I've had somebody like, you co

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sleep?

23:57

Well wh why do you do that?

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Why the hell is it any of your business?

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Like what I do my life is not affecting you at all.

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Like you're not in there sleeping with us.

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Mm-hmm.

24:08

Yeah.

24:08

And again, with not even again.

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It's oftentimes, and this is what I've learned the most about being in the anger world, is

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that most of the time there's some level of them that's trying to advocate or trying to

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protect, right?

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There there are these anger archetypes that each of us fall within.

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And those are usually the things that spark you up.

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And once we

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know which archetype we live within that is most likely to flare up based on what triggers

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me.

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It helps us understand ourselves in the world.

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And now when I hear these things, right?

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Like when I hear the things that flare people up, I'm constantly assessing for I wonder

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which archetype they are.

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I wonder who the person verbalizing which archetype they tend to live within.

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Because then it just makes so much sense for all of us in the way that we live our

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day-to-day lives.

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But yeah, there is this

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natural sense of judgment that we place upon people and we lead with why you're doing what

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you're doing and because it's wrong instead of why it might be helpful, why it might be

25:12

good.

25:14

Yeah, for sure.

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And now that you're talking about anger, that's w I've actually wanting to get more into

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the anger side of things.

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Uh you've at the beginning you mentioned anger intelligence.

25:26

I'd love for you to kinda kind of get into more of what that term means.

25:30

We're all pretty familiar with anger management.

25:34

What's what's anger intelligence to you?

25:38

Yeah, so first I want to place emphasis on the fact that a lot of people know anger

25:38

management exists and that's where people who are pissed off go to not be pissed off.

25:46

But even myself before I got certified in it, I had zero clue what it was.

25:50

And so I do want to preface that with like a lot of the time we know that it is, but we

25:50

don't know what it is.

25:56

And so in that way, it's it's a good distinction to go into it with.

26:00

But anger management is gonna be more so it is a skills-based approach.

26:04

A lot of it is about suppressing anger.

26:07

About understanding it, sure, but it's it's so much more nuanced than that.

26:12

And so what I've done is kind of evolve the anger management world into this broader, more

26:12

wide-reaching net of anger intelligence.

26:21

Because most of the time when we're talking anger management, we're just trying to manage

26:21

something.

26:26

We're not trying to evolve it over time.

26:30

And the anger intelligence world is.

26:32

About understanding our triggers in a deeper way, about understanding and getting more

26:32

emotionally literate in these ways.

26:39

So it's also about the way that we communicate, the way that we function, understanding

26:39

the neuroscience behind anger, taking so much more of a whole whole rounded, well-rounded,

26:50

holistic maybe of an approach, as opposed to this is your workbook, let's do one sheet per

26:50

session, and keeping it so universally applied.

27:00

Anger intelligence is so much more.

27:02

about the the individual themselves and teaching it in the same way that we would learn

27:02

how to read.

27:07

So in the same way that we start with the alphabet, recognizing the letters, learning

27:07

their sounds, we start understanding what's happening within our body, listening to what

27:16

anger's telling us, understanding the physical sensations and those types of things so

27:16

that then we can build upon.

27:22

That that's really cool.

27:23

So it's like a more in depth type of thing than just touching the surface.

27:31

But mm-hmm.

27:34

having so much success in anger management.

27:36

Absolutely.

27:38

And we also see this becoming more of like a behavioral band-aid on a bullet wound.

27:43

It's more so about how to behave differently instead of fully understand yourself and lead

27:43

with curiosity and acceptance of yourself.

27:51

Embrace it, listen to what anger is trying to tell you.

27:54

What is the message it's sending you?

27:56

And how to just not pair that with aggression and instead pair it with advocacy or a

27:56

boundary or a nap or a snack or whatever that is that we might be what what we might need

28:07

in order to utilize it as our compass, utilize it as that source of empowerment.

28:13

And when I've played the tape back of every major decision I've made in my life that

28:13

pointed me toward the better and advocacy and demanding different and more of my husband,

28:24

of myself, of my sons, of the world.

28:26

It's always been rooted in anger.

28:29

But because we do such destructive things with it, we assume that that must be the problem

28:29

instead of recognizing that the behavior that we learn to pair with that has been the

28:38

problem.

28:41

Yeah, interesting though, but you have you brought up so many questions in my mind.

28:45

So I'm gonna start off with the the first one here.

28:51

what is Inger usually trying to tell us beneath the surface?

28:55

Hmm.

28:56

It's telling us that something just isn't right.

28:59

Usually there's there's a level of power that's being lost.

29:02

There's something impeding my goal.

29:04

So within that's why I've created these archetypes, right?

29:08

So that we can understand it more deeply.

29:10

And we have five, and it's taken me seven years of sustained practice.

29:15

And everything that I've learned through that practice, through continuing education, and

29:15

through my own experience with anger and managing it, moving through it, evolving it.

29:25

And we've I've determined there are these five archetypes.

29:28

So we have the exile, the judge, the sentinel, the commander, and the defender.

29:35

So each one is going to protect against something that it feels is at risk.

29:39

And that's basically what anger is.

29:41

It's our survival emotion.

29:43

So when anger flares, something is at risk.

29:45

It might be my sense of self, my ability to belong, my respect, my dignity.

29:50

There might be an injustice, my safety might be at risk.

29:53

Right, there's always something that it's just saying, like, hey, here we are.

29:57

It's the equivalent of being upset and thinking that the smoke alarm is the problem just

29:57

because it's loud when really there's a fire raging in the other room.

30:06

And so that's what we really start to understand about it is what is your individual type

30:06

of anger doing for you and how it are you embodying it and moving through it in ways that

30:18

just aren't helpful for you.

30:21

That's really interesting.

30:22

I love how you put the type of anger into a a group to figure everything out.

30:29

I think that's really cool.

30:29

So I'm I'm kind of making an assumption here that in my mind I would I would think that

30:29

there was a type of healthy anger and a type of destructive anger.

30:42

How does somebody tell the difference between the two?

30:45

Yeah, so f first we understand what it's saying.

30:50

Where is it coming from?

30:51

What message is it giving you?

30:53

And most of the time we react so quickly that we create destruction.

30:58

The main difference between healthy anger and unhealthy anger is whether I have control

30:58

over what happens next.

31:07

The healthy anger will encourage me to set boundaries, advocate to change something within

31:07

my life, to leave that partner.

31:14

To stay with that partner, right?

31:16

Whatever that might be, that's going to be the healthier part of it.

31:20

The unhealthy part is when we stay so focused on things that are outside of our control.

31:26

And because we are so out of control, we do something to assert control.

31:31

And that's kind of what we're seeing in our world right now.

31:33

Are so many people we're we're taking in the news, we're taking in all of this data, all

31:33

of this destruction and terrible experiences from all around the world.

31:43

And we are so deeply out of control of it.

31:46

We're aware that we are, and then we use that to lash out on everyone around us.

31:51

But I would argue that that's not unhealthy anger.

31:54

I would argue that's that's an unhealthy utilization of anger, an expression of anger.

32:00

I firmly believe anger is our most beautiful emotion.

32:03

I don't want to eliminate it.

32:04

It's what keeps us surviving and alive and assessing for threats and being able to take

32:04

action against threats.

32:11

It's more so about us having this conditioned response that when I feel anger, I must be

32:11

righteous, I might be, I must be correct, that must be fact, and this is what I have to do

32:21

immediately about it.

32:24

Yeah, I I see it almost as uh so I get really bad anxiety.

32:29

I don't I in my mind I'm seeing it as anger as figuring out techniques that work for you

32:29

as an individual, just like I would my anxiety.

32:40

Like for me it's like the I don't know if you've ever heard of the you probably have the

32:40

five four three two one method.

32:47

For my anxiety, that works super well because I'm removing myself from the situation and

32:47

it's a slight reset.

32:53

And I feel like there's different techniques for anger that you can do that to just back

32:53

away from this situation and get your behav keep your behavior in check.

33:05

Yeah, I mean there's so many that that are so helpful and typically what people assume,

33:05

right, is that only when you are activated will these tools help.

33:16

And I'm a firm advocate in prevention.

33:18

So a lot of the work that I do is is based on like how we start our day, how quickly we

33:18

look at our phones first thing in the morning, how our sleep quality and sleep hygiene is.

33:28

Are we hydrated?

33:29

Are we fed?

33:29

Are we getting movement?

33:30

Are we getting sunlight?

33:32

Right.

33:32

There's so many of these things that work through to help us kind of reduce the

33:32

temperature of what's happening within us internally before we boil over.

33:41

And so there's so many practices there.

33:43

But yeah, there's there's not anything that I think works for everyone.

33:47

It's more so about trial and erroring, failing really fast, so that you find what really

33:47

does.

33:53

The more challenging thing about anger is that a lot of the time anxiety can be very

33:53

demobilizing, right?

34:00

Like we might go within ourselves.

34:01

We might have like all of this surge but not really know what to do with it.

34:05

And then the anger side, it's it's a mobilizing emotion.

34:08

It's a survival experience.

34:10

And so what ends up happening is we get this surge of energy within us and we don't know

34:10

what to do with it.

34:17

And that's why, because it happens so quickly, we end up causing so much destruction.

34:22

So if we can understand more about ourselves, get literate in in our emotional experience,

34:22

what's happening within our body, what outside stressors might be contributing, manage our

34:32

expectations, get more flexible, become more open to acknowledging and accepting multiple

34:32

truths, right?

34:40

Like these kinds of things are going to set us up so that when anger does hit us.

34:46

we might be able to buy ourselves a few seconds to make a more conscious decision about

34:46

what it is that we do about it.

34:53

And I also place a lot more emphasis on repair.

34:55

It's really the prevention and the repair, more so than just in the moment than anything.

35:01

Yeah, that totally makes sense.

35:03

And I I love the prevention part of it 'cause I think from I mentioned before that I have

35:03

some anger issues.

35:12

And I I wanna say that mine comes from like old wounds that I'm trying to heal.

35:17

And I I believe I've set this up as like a defense mechanism, like maybe it's like things

35:17

aren't going my way or my expectations are a certain level and I need to lower them.

35:31

So I it's because it's like my no, you say your expectations too high, things are gonna

35:31

fail all the time.

35:40

And then I just react and a lot of times it's overreacting.

35:45

But it's it's the that prevention part just seems like really nice of buying myself a few

35:45

seconds to really think through things before that reaction comes out and just destroys

35:57

the night or the week or whatever.

36:00

totally.

36:01

And there's there's so much to be said about just leading with awareness of yourself,

36:01

right?

36:06

And managing these expectations.

36:07

There's certain nights our six-year-old still comes to our bed multiple times every night.

36:12

Really rough.

36:13

I'm out of that phase, right?

36:14

Like I'm not used to being woken up so much anymore and it's rocking me.

36:19

And there are these times that I'm pissed at him.

36:23

I have a big day the next day.

36:25

I or I don't, and I just don't want to be woken up four times a night, right?

36:28

Like there are these parts that come through.

36:30

And when I ultimately do wake up, when my alarm goes off and I know it's ready, it's time

36:30

to start the day.

36:36

And I know I have a 16-hour day ahead of me every day, right?

36:39

Because of kids and life, there's this part that I immediately feel this injustice.

36:45

I immediately feel this pang of like, this is bullshit.

36:48

He needs to stay in his bed.

36:50

I'm gonna lock my door, not let him in.

36:52

Right.

36:52

And and I go down this whole cycle because I'm just tired.

36:57

Right.

36:57

And without the wherewithal, without the the skills to be able to stop myself in that

36:57

moment and say, hang on, where are we at?

37:06

Right.

37:06

And we start name I start naming what I'm feeling in my body.

37:10

I start naming the emotions that I feel come through.

37:12

And then I get to choose how do I actually want to move through my day, knowing that I'm

37:12

sleep deprived, knowing that I'm going to be more irritable.

37:20

How can I set myself up with a better breakfast?

37:22

How can I move through the day?

37:24

How can I push this appointment by 30 minutes to buy myself a little bit more time to get

37:24

there?

37:28

How can I do these things that I radically accept that this is this the position that I'm

37:28

in?

37:33

And then I take radical self-responsibility over what I'm doing about it.

37:39

And there's so many times that I miss the mark and I get it wrong and I shout at my kids

37:39

or I say the wrong thing.

37:44

It's not about

37:46

This per this idea of perfection, this expectation of perfection.

37:49

It's more so about how can I set myself and the people around me up for as much success as

37:49

possible so that we can move through with as little friction as necessary.

37:59

But it is this whole experience.

38:02

And when we're talking about anxiety, when we're talking about that being a fear of the

38:02

future-based disease, there is that part that makes us feel so deeply powerless.

38:13

And anger rises to protect.

38:14

It is our armor.

38:16

And so naturally when I feel powerless, when I feel uncertain, when I feel frustrated or

38:16

unsure, anger will come up because it's like, hey, I've got it.

38:24

I've come to save the day.

38:25

Don't you worry.

38:26

You don't have to figure this out for you.

38:27

I'm just gonna lash out and we'll feel we'll deal with it later.

38:30

Right?

38:31

It's we're we're not fully thinking through all of these things each time.

38:36

for sure, and especially when it comes to parenting.

38:39

But you you did make something pop up in my mind because I'm still working on this part.

38:46

Is when I do lose my cool or my patience, whatever you want to call it.

38:52

I I'm still trying to figure out how to re like repair that uh you know, moment with my

38:52

child.

39:00

How how do you do that yourself?

39:03

Like how do you repair with your children after you've lost your patience?

39:09

Yeah.

39:10

So I know the tried and true model is to just be nice.

39:13

Right.

39:14

Like we all kind of just like I would say I would be loud, all of this right before

39:14

bedtime, they'd go to sleep.

39:19

I feel like shit.

39:20

And then the morning I would just be Mary Poppins.

39:23

And I would just like make their day extra I'd be like extra chippy and cheery and like

39:23

trying to be, you know, bright and vibrant.

39:30

But more than anything that leaves them confused of how we got from me shouting to me

39:30

being perfectly fine and all of us okay.

39:38

And I at this point now go directly to them almost immediately afterwards.

39:43

Sometimes I I excuse myself and then I come back.

39:46

And more so it's an and.

39:48

We went around the table recently and we we said, because I actually live with my sister,

39:48

like all of are like we're full housing it with our husbands and our kids.

39:55

It's really amazing.

39:57

And we went around the table and we asked, What one word does each person say in the house

39:57

the most?

40:04

And they had all said that mine was and speaking of the you just walked in, honey.

40:09

Okay.

40:10

So it they said that it was and for me.

40:14

And it is because that.

40:15

So whenever I go to repair with my kids, I say, hey, here's how I was feeling.

40:21

Here's what I did with it that was not good.

40:24

And here's where it came from.

40:27

And here's what I need from you differently.

40:30

Right?

40:30

It becomes this whole part where

40:32

I won't apologize for being upset.

40:34

I don't apologize for experiencing a wide range of emotions.

40:38

I apologize for what I did with it afterward.

40:41

So when something goes wrong, we usually lash out, we say something we don't mean, we

40:41

react like shit, and then we feel so bad about it that then we go back and say, I mean it

40:51

was a cup.

40:52

Is it really that important?

40:54

And then we shame ourselves and make it seem like we don't have an adequate reason.

40:59

To feel the way that we felt when we absolutely do.

41:03

And that's the the other part that I will always acknowledge where I'm coming from.

41:08

Hey, this is what happened.

41:10

Here's what how I was feeling about it.

41:12

Here's what I did really poorly.

41:13

And I I I regret the way that I handled that.

41:17

This is what I did wrong.

41:19

Here's what you did, that I had this experience with.

41:24

And here's what I'm going to do in control of myself only.

41:28

in the future to try to mitigate this for next time.

41:32

Yeah.

41:33

Awesome.

41:34

You you made me feel better about how I've been handling things.

41:38

This is it's one of those I I usually s there's times where it's like I wa I walk away for

41:38

a minute and sometimes my wife needs to be like, You know, you really need to go and

41:52

apologize to our daughter because I I'm not always the type to to

41:59

do that.

41:59

I just sometimes it's better for me to not even talk about it.

42:03

But and I I'm doing the same thing.

42:04

I'm not apologizing for being mad.

42:06

I'm apologizing for the action that I took the way I handled it.

42:10

So I'll give myself some time to cool down and I'll I'll go through one recent experience.

42:20

So our my daughter who is six years old she'd been at a friend's house playing.

42:26

She came home like the our

42:29

th this time we had a two year old and a four year old boys.

42:31

So they were super golden when she was gone.

42:35

She came home and just it was just chaotic, just added a bunch of chaos.

42:40

So she started pulling fits and uh she was just bugging the boys.

42:47

And so I got mad and I was like, maybe I should just take you back to your cousin's house.

42:54

Well we don't want you here right now.

42:56

And it was it was that

42:57

We don't want your part that got to her.

42:59

She started crying.

43:01

And I walked away and my wife texted me or said something like, You really had to say

43:01

that?

43:08

So a couple hours later, I said, I'm sorry, I should not have said that.

43:14

But you need to take a step back and not treat your brothers like that.

43:21

You you can go and play with friends, but you can't come home and act like that.

43:28

But it's you know, it went over as well as it could with a six year old.

43:31

Yeah.

43:32

Are you open to some feedback on it?

43:35

Okay.

43:36

So one, you addressed it straight out.

43:38

You took accountability for what it is that you said.

43:41

You took accountability for why you said it.

43:43

And I think that's incredible.

43:45

The and is missing because we want, we don't want the I love you, but I'm sorry, but but

43:45

says it negates everything before it.

43:57

So it's I love you and.

43:58

Right.

43:59

So and it's I'm sorry, and so what we want to do first is say, take accountability fully

43:59

and completely.

44:07

Ask her what her experience was, what did she feel when this was said, even though we can

44:07

kind of get it, like we we can understand she was feeling rejected, unwanted, right?

44:15

There there's those things that can come through.

44:17

But it's so important to help her and let her share with you in her words what that felt

44:17

like.

44:24

And so there is all of that.

44:26

So it's hey.

44:28

About earlier when everything happened.

44:30

Can I share with you where I'm coming from?

44:32

And I want to apologize.

44:34

Right?

44:35

Firstly, I am so sorry for saying this.

44:38

I did not mean it.

44:39

I was reacting out of anger, and that doesn't make it okay.

44:44

We talk that out.

44:45

You take full accountability for it.

44:47

It's this compartment of an entire whole, right?

44:50

So that part gets fully accounted for.

44:53

You acknowledge all of it entirely.

44:55

And

44:57

You s you'd say something like, Are you open to hearing what my experience was like?

45:01

She'll probably say yes.

45:03

And you share, We were here, we had the boys here, and here was my experience of you.

45:09

When you came home, I saw you being somewhat unkind.

45:12

I got scared.

45:13

I got worried about the kids.

45:15

I got worried about this, right?

45:16

And you still share what your inner experience was and kind of teach her what her anger,

45:16

like what your anger was in response to, not just that you were angry.

45:25

Right.

45:26

And then there becomes so much more of this rich conversation that you guys can have as

45:26

you move through it.

45:32

And so with each time that it comes up, there can be this opportunity to say, like, all of

45:32

this full accountability, here's what I'm going to do next time.

45:40

Do you agree to be held to that expectation?

45:42

Hey, next time you come in and the house is calm and you come in and maybe you're being

45:42

unkind or you're playing too rough or you're being inconsiderate of whatever the household

45:53

needs, I'm going to say this word.

45:56

And that will be our word that means that you stop doing what you're doing, and I will be

45:56

patient in letting you, right?

46:03

It becomes more of this like well-rounded approach that allows for all of these things to

46:03

exist at once.

46:09

And she gets learned in being able to advocate for herself and how she felt.

46:14

And it becomes more of this conversation as opposed to like the way that I used to

46:14

complain that the way that I used to apologize to my kids is like, I'm sorry, okay?

46:22

Can we move on?

46:25

Yeah, I I've but I've been there too.

46:27

I've been there too.

46:29

It's not an apology.

46:30

You're asking them to suppress their emotions, their needs, and just shove shit down and

46:30

act like it didn't bother them because you don't want to deal with it.

46:36

And it's exactly how it used to be.

46:39

And I absolutely love that approach because one of the things that we're working on as

46:39

parents is to make sure that our kids have voices.

46:48

We want them to know that it's that it's okay for them to have feelings too.

46:53

And to I I think too many times I hear people say, Well, I don't want my kid to say talk

46:53

back.

47:02

I don't want my kid to do this.

47:03

I'm like I to a point I do because I want my kid to feel open enough with me.

47:09

That they're gonna tell me everything.

47:11

That they're they're not afraid to push back a little bit.

47:15

And I I made that in a sense of like like push back to the point where I'm trying to think

47:15

how to explain myself.

47:23

So I push back of let's see, what am I trying to say?

47:27

Yes, challenge me, challenge respectfully, and know that they have a voice and that I'm

47:27

listening and I'm here for them.

47:34

Hmm.

47:36

And yeah, and that's the best way to model it, right?

47:38

It's just, it's so hard.

47:39

And there are so many times that I shut them down unintentionally.

47:43

And there's so many things that we were gonna do wrong time and time again.

47:47

It's so much about showing them by example how long behavior change really takes.

47:53

Right.

47:54

And as we're doing this work, the other day, my two boys got into some sort of scuffle.

48:00

My elder said something to my younger, and my younger socked him in the stomach.

48:04

And I, it was right before bedtime.

48:07

And it was just, you know, bedtime's my least favorite time of day.

48:11

And I was already at my wits.

48:13

And I, of course, was just carrying all sorts of my own stuff.

48:17

And I walked straight up to my younger son, who's six, and I shouted in his face and said,

48:17

Are you out of your fucking mind?

48:26

And he immediately just started bawling and yelling back at me.

48:30

And we he and I engaged in this whole big thing.

48:33

argument back and forth, shouting at each other.

48:36

And it wasn't until I reminded myself that I'm the adult here and that like I'm literally

48:36

like taking I'm arguing with a six-year-old in a not cute way at all.

48:47

And what am I teaching him about what to do when you're upset?

48:51

And so it became this whole thing where once we fully usually we we repair now as a group.

48:58

And when my husband and I argue in front of the kids, rare but it happens, we will sit

48:58

down in front of the kids and they'll watch us repair so they can actually see that in

49:06

real time.

49:07

And so I pulled them both in here and we sat on the floor and I said, What was each of

49:07

your guys' experiences?

49:14

And they shared what was happening.

49:16

I validated, we corrected, they each took accountability, all of this.

49:20

And then I said, What do you think my experience was of that?

49:23

And he said, You were angry, you were mad.

49:27

And I said, Well, why do you think I was mad?

49:28

And he said, Because I hit him.

49:30

I said, Well, what do you think I was mad about that?

49:33

Like, what about that do you think made me mad?

49:35

And he said, that I hurt him.

49:38

And I said, What do you what about that do you think makes me mad?

49:41

And he kind of just got kind of unsure about what the answer was.

49:47

And I shared with him, I said, I'm so scared.

49:51

I was so scared.

49:53

It was scary for me to watch you harm.

49:56

your brother in that way.

49:57

I was scared for brother to be hurt.

49:59

I was scared for you and your heart and what you might feel if you really hurt him in a

49:59

real way.

50:04

And all of that kind of happened all at once.

50:07

Here's what I was protecting, here's where this came from, here's what I mismanaged, and

50:07

I'm so very sorry for shouting in your face like that.

50:15

You do not deserve that, no matter how mad or how scared I am, that it's not anything that

50:15

you deserve for me to treat you that way and speak to you in that way.

50:22

And

50:23

How do we move through all of it?

50:24

Right.

50:25

And then it became this whole big thing that teaching them the layers of emotion and how

50:25

you can feel all of these things all at once.

50:32

And more so because I'm raising men, there is this added accountability that I feel to

50:32

help navigate their anger away from aggression and physical aggression or the quiet

50:44

control side and into something where they can advocate and they can share and they can

50:44

come to me and say, like, hey mama, I didn't like that.

50:52

You shouted at me and that made me really sad.

50:54

I didn't like that.

50:55

And I have to put my inner defender archetype down and not defend myself and just own it

50:55

and accept it and allow for their voices to matter and be so important and just as

51:08

important as I want mine to be to them.

51:11

Yeah, for sure.

51:12

I love that story.

51:14

And I I think about you made me think about my wife and I are do this thing all the time.

51:20

If the other person starts getting too mad at the kids, say it's my four year old son and

51:20

I'm starting to yell, my wife will be like, Travis, remember, he's four years old,

51:31

remember.

51:34

So we we've started calling each other out on it in the moment.

51:37

So that person's shouting or whatever backs out.

51:41

Mm.

51:42

like, okay, yeah, they're you're you're right.

51:44

I don't need to overdo it.

51:47

It is it's it's a hard thing to do though in that those moments.

51:51

It is so hard.

51:52

And there's almost this other part that can feel again, your defender comes out because it

51:52

feels like criticism.

51:59

Your commander might come out because you're feeling disrespected, right?

52:03

By your partner in real time.

52:04

And you can know logically that they're right, but emotionally you're like, shut the fuck

52:04

up.

52:09

Are you serious?

52:09

Like, no, don't do this.

52:11

It can feel undermining in front of the kids, right?

52:14

Because then we have like the good cop, bad cop thing and the triangulation and all of

52:14

these things.

52:19

We

52:20

worked a little bit outside of that because we did have that going on and then each of us

52:20

would just feel undermined each time.

52:28

And so we came we use the word banana and we'll use it in the midst of everything, but in

52:28

a more subtle way.

52:34

So if I see my husband and he's maybe being a bit too tough on the boys because he grew up

52:34

with a dad who was like, fucking deal with it, man up, blah da.

52:42

It was like he was not allowed to have any sort of human emotion besides joy.

52:47

It was

52:48

Every so often I I worry that he's being too harsh.

52:52

And I don't want them to perceive him as being this overbearing, aggressive man.

52:57

And so we incorporate banana in, where in the middle of it, I would say, I'm so sorry,

52:57

honey.

53:02

I'm so sorry to interrupt you guys.

53:03

I'm just doing this.

53:04

Did you happen to buy bananas today?

53:06

When you're at the grocery store today?

53:07

Or like, do you know what?

53:08

Can you put bananas on the grocery list?

53:10

Or like whatever it is, but then it becomes a little bit inside.

53:15

It's a word that he and I chose together.

53:17

That then brings us back into who we are and what what it is that we're doing instead of

53:17

this version of us that's feeling told how to behave in a certain way.

53:26

And then the shame and the anger comes out as a result of that too.

53:30

And so it becomes this kind of like silly some people use silly words.

53:33

I know some of my couples have used my name as their code word.

53:36

There's all of these like little things that can come through, but then each time we use

53:36

banana, we are brought back to the time when we made that decision consciously together.

53:47

And we've noticed it kind of just dissolves the tension and it can dissolve some of like

53:47

that angry energy that we're feeling in that moment really quickly because we're brought

53:56

down to earth in a way that feels subtle and loving and collaborative.

54:03

I am going to steal that from you and talk to my wife about that because I love that a lot

54:03

of times I'm like you.

54:10

I the nighttime is the worst for me.

54:13

Bedtime, I can't stand it.

54:15

It's and I'm a I'm a night owl, but I think the older I get, the less of a less of a night

54:15

owl I become.

54:23

And I have to have my at least eight hours of sleep most of the time, which I don't get

54:23

right now.

54:29

So I've been a little bit of a of a bear, I should say.

54:32

Sure, yeah, naturally.

54:34

But I I love the idea of a subcodeword to bring us back to reality because in those

54:34

moments where, especially at night when I'm okay, kids, get ready for bed.

54:44

Do you want to read a book?

54:45

Do you want to do this?

54:46

Let's get your bedtime routines out.

54:50

And it doesn't go as I see planned.

54:54

My anxiety kicks in, and then my you know, four year old or six year old start getting

54:54

rambunctious.

55:00

And I think bedtime is that code word for them.

55:03

It's like

55:03

Okay, let's start bouncing off the walls.

55:05

Let's let's just start acting like we're wild animals.

55:11

And it just drives me crazy.

55:12

And that's when all this anger comes out.

55:14

But if I had to co so be I'm jumping too far ahead of myself.

55:19

So most of the time I'll be like, turn to my wife, I'll be like, Okay, babe, I need thirty

55:19

seconds.

55:26

And she'll she knows that means that I'm gonna walk out of the room for thirty seconds so

55:26

I can reset.

55:32

Mm-hmm.

55:33

And sometimes it's a little bit longer, but most of the time I try to keep it within that

55:33

thirty second realm just so I don't abandon her to take care of the kids.

55:42

And but a code word would be great because I I I could see her using it to help me reset.

55:49

Totally.

55:49

And we'll even have it with the boys too.

55:52

Each of my boys we have one every so often it loses its meaning and then we have to reset,

55:52

you know?

55:57

But it's it gives them a little bit of

56:01

An inside, right?

56:02

Like we now have this inside word between me and mom and it and me and dad.

56:05

And it becomes more of again, like we're all on this team together, right?

56:10

But yeah, there is something about bedtime, man.

56:12

Like there's that expectation that the day is nearly over and we're trying to just get it

56:12

done.

56:17

And there's also this other part of us that is desperate to just feel like a whole human

56:17

for a minute, outside of all of the responsibilities of everything during the day.

56:27

And I do notice myself.

56:29

getting irritable and impatient and just wanting it to be done.

56:33

And that's where so much of the self-talk comes in.

56:36

Cause mine manifests more as irritability and impatience rather than anxiety.

56:42

Although there are some anxious notes to it because then I start playing through

56:42

everything I still need to do before I can go to sleep and the things that I need to do in

56:50

the morning, right?

56:51

But more than anything it it mine is very much irritability.

56:55

Get in bed now.

56:57

La da da.

56:57

Close your eyes, take deep breaths.

56:59

Like, lady, with that attitude, I don't think anyone's gonna take any deep breaths or calm

56:59

themselves.

57:04

But it it becomes this whole thing of them just doing what kids do and needing to get

57:04

energy out at the end of the night and try not wanting the day to end, or finally getting

57:16

a calm moment in their brain where now they want to tell me about their day.

57:19

When I've been trying to tell have them do that all day with me.

57:22

And now before bed, they want to tell me a 20-minute story about the project that they're

57:22

working on, you know?

57:26

And so much of it is about that self-talk of, okay, big feelings, little body.

57:33

Okay, I get it.

57:34

He's now trying to connect with me.

57:36

How can I do that with him?

57:38

He's fearful of the dark.

57:41

And I don't get to minimize that because I'm impatient about what's gonna happen.

57:45

And there's a lot of the justification that I do in my mind is if I take 10 extra minutes

57:45

with them patient, I might be able to mitigate 30 minutes.

57:55

of a back and forth conflict.

57:57

So how can I give them 10 minutes of really conscious effort and energy and then go on my

57:57

merry way and not go downstairs, get in my bed and feel like absolute shit for the way

58:08

that I handle.

58:10

Yeah.

58:11

And I feel like figuring that out is always such trial and error because for us it's

58:11

different with each kid.

58:19

Yeah.

58:20

Are all of your kids do they share rooms?

58:24

right now we just have outgrown our house.

58:28

But like I said in the very first, we're very unconventional.

58:30

We had moved my six year old daughter so we we co asleep until they're about two or three.

58:36

And then we start trying to put them in their own bed on the floor.

58:40

So I have we have a so this is how unconventional we are.

58:44

We have the a newborn that cuddles up with my wife, she nurses.

58:48

Uh and then a two year old next to me.

58:52

And then we have like this kind of split thing between the two-year-old and the newborn so

58:52

the two-year-old doesn't like roll over on top of him.

58:59

And it works pretty well.

59:01

And then we have a four-year-old down on a mattress and a six-year-old who was in her

59:01

room, but they decide that she doesn't want to be in her room.

59:07

So we're trying to get her back out of the room, and then we think that the four-year-old

59:07

will follow.

59:12

But now we're we're to the point where that so they're sharing a room, but we

59:21

We live in a three bedroom house and it's just we're getting too much stuff, so we're

59:21

actually looking to upgrade here pretty soon.

59:29

And I'm hoping once we start moving stuff in it w it will fall into place a little bit

59:29

more.

59:36

It's a little bit chaotic right now.

59:38

Totally.

59:38

I mean, we as I shared, we l moved in with my sister because we just relocated up here and

59:38

we just weren't sure if we wanted to stay.

59:45

So we have nine of us in a townhome.

59:48

So we have the three boys in one room here that I work from because I gave up my office.

59:53

I just prefer being at home and on the floor.

59:55

I much prefer it.

59:56

And the two girls are in their other room here.

59:59

And I do think that especially with your um setup, there must be some anxiousness around

59:59

who's gonna wake up.

1:00:07

Who?

1:00:08

And what is that gonna be like?

1:00:10

And how hard is it gonna get them down?

1:00:11

And then it becomes this like kind of like catastrophizing, like, let me just contain.

1:00:20

Yeah, it's honestly it hasn't been too horrible.

1:00:24

'Cause my my daughter will sleep through anything.

1:00:26

Like I said, we did have her in her own room at one point and then she got a little

1:00:26

nervous so she came back for a night, then came back, went back and then we're like, you

1:00:34

know what, we don't even care.

1:00:36

She's on she's on her in her own bed and uh I feel like I always give myself an excuse for

1:00:36

saying we're unconventional, but I I shouldn't I shouldn't be sorry for how I parent.

1:00:46

Uh but so

1:00:50

But she sleeps through anything so when one kid wakes up it usually's not too much of a

1:00:50

bother.

1:00:57

So we've been really lucky that way.

1:00:59

That's amazing.

1:01:00

And I mean, it's we are, I don't know, w this whole setup of us like living on top of each

1:01:00

other just works so well for us.

1:01:08

And there is that part that we we live in such an individualistic culture where what we

1:01:08

are doing is unconventional.

1:01:17

And it's the amount of people who say the almost always the reaction we get is like, I

1:01:17

could never.

1:01:23

I need my space.

1:01:25

And it's like, yes, of course, like we all need space.

1:01:27

This is also so lovely.

1:01:29

Like we we have all of us living under one roof.

1:01:32

You all, while things are tight, this is their childhood.

1:01:35

This is the story that they'll tell their future partner, their future kids, should they

1:01:35

choose to have them, about what it was like growing up in your home.

1:01:43

And if that's what brings you guys more closeness and intimacy and and connection, then I

1:01:43

don't think it matters what Brenda, you know, says who isn't doing it, you know.

1:01:54

And and it's it's and it's I have we've got to the point where it's like, you know, I

1:01:54

don't I don't give a shit what somebody says to me because they're not the ones doing it.

1:02:06

And we we've enjoyed having them in the room and because we know that at some point

1:02:06

obviously like if she was sixteen years old that'd be completely different.

1:02:17

And and we know uh

1:02:21

that at some point it's basically gonna be our three boys in one room and our daughter

1:02:21

will probably most likely have her own room.

1:02:27

Uh but it's they're still in our minds they're still young and we we like them being

1:02:27

around us.

1:02:36

So we wanna hold on to that and when sh she's ready to go, like we're gonna let her go

1:02:36

back in.

1:02:44

And I think she's really close.

1:02:46

She keeps saying saying that, oh I wanna go sleep in my own room.

1:02:49

Okay, well let's

1:02:51

get your room cleaned up 'cause we're starting to, you know, put boxes together and put

1:02:51

stuff in storage because we're we're looking to get into something different this summer.

1:03:02

Yeah.

1:03:03

And I think it's amazing.

1:03:04

And again, that's what kind of each time my son comes in three, four times a night, it's

1:03:04

what I remind myself of is that I won't get a child who wants to come into their parents'

1:03:13

bed much longer.

1:03:14

And I want to savor this experience.

1:03:16

And as much as I say that same thing of like they're not living it, you know, it's I don't

1:03:16

care, la da da.

1:03:22

I know that logically and emotionally, I still feel I still care.

1:03:28

You know, and so, you know.

1:03:30

c I feel you there.

1:03:32

Yeah, exactly.

1:03:32

Like each time it flares one of us up, it's like, yeah, but and it's like, no, actually,

1:03:32

it really does bother me.

1:03:37

So even down to like that mule grid, it's still that and the amount of self talk that I

1:03:37

give myself and these strategies that I use to just regulate myself, even when I know that

1:03:50

there's this dissonance between what I think and how I feel, how how I want to think and

1:03:50

how I want to feel too, it becomes that whole experience too.

1:03:59

And sometimes we

1:04:01

we bypass the emotional regulation piece in hopes that if I can just convince myself that

1:04:01

it shouldn't matter and that I really don't care, that I won't internalize the criticism

1:04:13

or the judgment or the fear of of what they might say internally.

1:04:19

And a and the well they I saw this thing online where this this lady she's an influencer.

1:04:24

I I couldn't tell you who she was, but I saw it and I don't know if it's a is it an

1:04:24

Alaskan king bed or Japanese king bed.

1:04:33

They're huge and they span like across the room and they're like on the floor.

1:04:37

And the she said that she co sleeps with her kids for a while and it allows like older

1:04:37

kids if they want to come and lay down, everybody in the room they need to

1:04:48

suit comfortably and she posted it as a real and she got all this feedback, negative

1:04:48

feedback, and she said, You know what, you're not doing it.

1:04:58

We love this setup.

1:04:59

And if we love it, we're going to stick with it.

1:05:02

Yeah, exactly.

1:05:04

not we're not we have young kids, we have old kids, we're not hurting anything.

1:05:08

All of our kids are super safe because we we make them make it so they're safe and

1:05:08

nothing's going to happen.

1:05:15

Exactly.

1:05:16

And there is something to be said about that.

1:05:18

That where we sleep and where we feel the most amount of safety is going to determine how

1:05:18

we seek help and guidance and support when we struggle later in life, too.

1:05:28

And I'm a firm advocate for it.

1:05:29

If we had a bigger bed, I would d I would love to sleep with my sons.

1:05:33

Last night my eldest son couldn't sleep and he came downstairs.

1:05:35

We ended up like eating a cinnamon roll and hanging out, watching into the spider-verse

1:05:35

together, and we fell asleep together, and it was so beautiful and wonderful and tender.

1:05:44

And I love those moments.

1:05:46

And it's it's you're only gonna have those moments for so long.

1:05:50

Exactly.

1:05:52

I do I ha I another question about anger just came to mind.

1:05:57

Uh sometimes I feel like this is me, so this is might be a little bit of a selfish

1:05:57

question.

1:06:04

What does anger look like when it's trying to protect us?

1:06:09

It's big.

1:06:11

It's loud.

1:06:11

It's, I mean, I I would argue that it kind of always is.

1:06:17

But there's a reason why we refer to ourselves as like mama bear, papa bear, right?

1:06:21

Like the mama bear comes out and she just wants to protect and she will defend against any

1:06:21

threat in order to protect herself, her young, her loved ones.

1:06:30

And there is

1:06:33

That it's it's kind of always just trying to protect us.

1:06:36

It's always trying to be an advocate, always trying to prevent harm from taking place.

1:06:42

And so when we are experiencing anger, that's usually what comes through.

1:06:48

Even when we say that it got in the way of my task, right?

1:06:52

Some people will say that anger is the result of impeded tasks.

1:06:56

It is then not just about that task, likely, it's about what that task means to us

1:06:56

overall.

1:07:03

So if if we're saying that just now when my son came in and was like kind of rummaging

1:07:03

around his own room, fair, while I'm working, there was this part of me that was just

1:07:13

like, fuck, are you serious?

1:07:16

How disrespectful, how unkind, you know I'm in here working, this is embarrassing, this

1:07:16

could, this could make me lose credibility, like whatever it is that like my like inner

1:07:24

world says, There is still ultimately the additional part beyond just the interview, just

1:07:24

the chat, just the task.

1:07:33

About what all of this ultimately means.

1:07:36

And this is my career, this is my way of life.

1:07:38

This is the way that I present myself to the world.

1:07:41

This is the task that I'm trying to complete for the job that matters a lot to my family

1:07:41

and feeding them.

1:07:46

But our brain works in such quick reactions and it cycles through all of this prediction

1:07:46

in milliseconds.

1:07:55

And yet it seems like just this one task is why I'm upset.

1:07:59

Right?

1:07:59

So it's almost always coming through.

1:08:02

In all of these really big ways.

1:08:04

And it's and most of the time uh if somebody pops on screen, it's it's cra crazy.

1:08:09

You remind me of something.

1:08:10

'Cause you most of the time we as an individual like this dealing with it, like you know,

1:08:10

your son walking in, even if you s jumped in screen, I wouldn't even think anything of it.

1:08:20

I'd just be like, yeah, okay, that's cool.

1:08:23

Because what's that saying that

1:08:27

You're always worried about how you're gonna be perceived from somebody else.

1:08:32

And I just remember I was on an interview once and I my dog I have a dog in with me.

1:08:38

And this was like a second or third interview, so I was like super nervous.

1:08:43

I had a there's a ton of like people up above like on that call.

1:08:49

And my dog comes up, starts like licking my hand, and starts barking.

1:08:53

Yeah.

1:08:54

I was like, are you kidding me right now?

1:08:56

Like you're gonna make it so I don't get this job and I need this job.

1:09:00

And everybody started laughing, and I was like, I'm so sorry.

1:09:04

And everybody on the call was super cool, and they're like, You work from we work from

1:09:04

home from this company right now.

1:09:11

You're going to have interruptions.

1:09:13

A dog licking your hand and barking is not going to not make it so you get the job.

1:09:19

And it was just this

1:09:22

feeling that, oh well, everybody's thinking about this and everybody's judging me for it,

1:09:22

which isn't true.

1:09:30

Right.

1:09:30

And that's where it's like, again, that you could have led with anger.

1:09:34

You could have been frustrated.

1:09:35

It could have been this kind of really big moment because it felt like there was a lot on

1:09:35

the line for you.

1:09:40

And for me, even with my son coming in, what we say in the anger world is if it's

1:09:40

hysterical, it's historical.

1:09:47

So while if I had just said something unkind, whatever, had I like led with anger in when

1:09:47

he came in, there's an argument for how many times has this happened?

1:09:58

How how many times are her boundaries overstepped, if despite her expressing what it is

1:09:58

that she needs, right?

1:10:05

And so then it becomes this deeper kind of question of if that reaction seemed immeasured

1:10:05

to what the scenario is.

1:10:16

Then there's likely a historical piece to this that we just don't quite understand.

1:10:21

And that's what I wish everyone would view anger through the lens of is this is a really

1:10:21

big emotion.

1:10:27

And rather than saying, like, geez, what's your problem?

1:10:30

Calm down.

1:10:30

It's not a big deal.

1:10:32

If we were to lead with more kindness and understand a little bit more about what it is

1:10:32

that they're experiencing beneath that, we would be left with a very less stigmatized

1:10:45

emotion.

1:10:46

and pr and people than than we we typically handle.

1:10:51

Yes, yes, I I very much agree.

1:10:54

And it's it it seems like those situations where I actually tend to underst or take the

1:10:54

time to understand the other person's point of view.

1:11:03

It's like, okay, well that makes sense.

1:11:05

I was thinking something completely different.

1:11:07

'Cause I do stuff like that, especially at work a lot.

1:11:11

I always feel you know, like well uh there's always something going through my mind where

1:11:11

I'm thinking something completely wrong and nobody else is thinking that way.

1:11:21

And so I have to take the time to do a little bit of investigation and they're pointing

1:11:21

fingers at me because of this.

1:11:29

They're doing this.

1:11:30

It's like, oh, they're actually not doing that at all.

1:11:34

Mm-hmm.

1:11:34

And that's what I usually say to myself, because I will speculate wildly.

1:11:39

My my brain is built for anxiousness.

1:11:42

And I will, I'm constantly saying, facts are my friends.

1:11:46

Until I have the facts, I do not have any friends.

1:11:49

And it becomes this kind of experience that let me prompt for clarity, let me ask the

1:11:49

people around me.

1:11:54

And then I'm working into this idea of what they think of me is none of my business until

1:11:54

they say

1:12:02

And so until then, I have no choice but to lead with the fact that we are totally fine.

1:12:07

And if we aren't, then it's their responsibility to bring it to me.

1:12:11

If I ask you if we're okay, you say yes, okay.

1:12:14

Then my work here is done.

1:12:15

I don't need to do any more of these doom loops.

1:12:18

I don't need to determine all these different scenarios about how you're feeling about me

1:12:18

and what that exhale might have meant.

1:12:24

It's instead there's there's a lot of this.

1:12:27

the empowerment from being confident in my ability to navigate conflict that then makes it

1:12:27

less scary for people to disagree with me or to voice complaints to me, so long as I can

1:12:40

keep my defender at bay.

1:12:42

It tends to work out okay.

1:12:44

Yeah, I I think we're a lot alike that way.

1:12:47

You just explained me to D.

1:12:51

I I love it.

1:12:52

I just have a few more questions here.

1:12:54

One of them is kind of going back to rewriting the marriage.

1:12:58

Uh just in general, what mistake do couples do or do couples make when trying to repair a

1:12:58

damaged relationship?

1:13:10

A few.

1:13:11

One, they tell each other how they feel and why they felt that way.

1:13:17

Right.

1:13:17

Instead of speaking from the me and my and I, we say, no, you didn't, because you think la

1:13:17

da da da da.

1:13:24

No, you feel like this is okay and that's why you did it.

1:13:27

No, you have no respect for me, which is why, right?

1:13:30

And so we we almost tell them how they feel, which just reinforces the narrative that we

1:13:30

have of them.

1:13:36

And the other is

1:13:39

waiting too long before they utilize any sort of intervention.

1:13:44

What we end up seeing, what I end up seeing so much in practice, is those of us who wait

1:13:44

until we're at the end of our marriage rope, we feel like we've tried everything within

1:13:54

our capability.

1:13:57

And so by the time we get to this point, we're so full of apathy and resentment that once

1:13:57

our partner starts starts making changes, we just

1:14:07

Don't have the room for them to do it.

1:14:09

And it's it's a really hard thing to watch.

1:14:12

And we almost work ahead work against ourselves in those ways.

1:14:16

So when me and my husband were working on rewriting the narrative, we had this very open

1:14:16

discussion.

1:14:24

And I said, I have this narrative, this story about you, that you are a fuck up who is

1:14:24

gonna continuously miss the mark.

1:14:34

Who isn't going to understand me well enough to or respect me deeply enough to honor what

1:14:34

I'm asking without thinking I'm just trying to boss you around?

1:14:46

His narrative, my words, not his, was that I was this ball-bearing bitch who had it my way

1:14:46

or no way and wouldn't leave him any room to be creative and come up with his own

1:14:59

solutions.

1:15:01

And nothing he would ever do would ever be good enough.

1:15:03

That was like one of his verbatim for me.

1:15:06

And so then we got to rewrite it.

1:15:08

So for couples who are navigating a lot of conflict, I just want, I would want them to ask

1:15:08

themselves what narrative they're carrying with their partner and seeing whether their

1:15:18

partner's actions match that narrative or go against it.

1:15:21

So as we started doing this work, I shifted my narrative into this man is trying to be

1:15:21

someone he's never been before.

1:15:29

The first in his lineage.

1:15:31

To take on this task.

1:15:33

And I respect his ability to trial and error quickly and try and keep trying.

1:15:41

And I respect the fact that he's keeping trying, right?

1:15:43

Like it became this whole thing that I get, I need to be patient with a man who's becoming

1:15:43

someone he's never been before.

1:15:50

So when he used to make mistakes, if I had this narrative that he was just not gonna get

1:15:50

it right, right?

1:15:56

See, exactly, because you're never gonna get it right.

1:15:59

Then once I shifted that narrative and I started working through it, when he made

1:15:59

mistakes, it fell into he's trying to be someone he's never been before.

1:16:07

Let's support him and see how these things go.

1:16:11

When I used to make requests to my husband or tell him why he just just missed the mark or

1:16:11

whatever it was, there was that original complaint.

1:16:19

See, exactly, I'm never gonna be good enough for her.

1:16:21

Why should I swaddle the child in this way?

1:16:24

Why should I fold the towels in this other way?

1:16:26

Why should I wash the laundry in this cycle?

1:16:29

Right.

1:16:29

It became this nothing I ever do will be good enough for her anyway, versus this woman is

1:16:29

just trying to share with me her preferences for things.

1:16:39

This woman chronically was unheard and minimized in her upbringing.

1:16:44

And I get to be a person who gives her a voice and who listens to her voice.

1:16:48

Right?

1:16:49

It becomes this whole different full of empathy, full of mutual respect, full of benefit

1:16:49

of the doubt.

1:16:56

And leave so much room for us to view each other as flawed and fundamentally working

1:16:56

toward evolution.

1:17:03

And how can we support each other in that joint mission?

1:17:06

And it's not easy, don't get me wrong.

1:17:08

Like it's it's a challenging thing, but it's first and foremost, how are you getting in

1:17:08

your own way by viewing yourself and your partner in in poor narratives and waiting too

1:17:19

long to help someone, to find someone to help you shift it.

1:17:24

Yeah.

1:17:25

I absolutely love though that you you guys worked through this and you're leaving room for

1:17:25

each other to grow.

1:17:36

No.

1:17:37

No.

1:17:39

No.

1:17:40

And it's there's so many parts of me that even in the beginning, I was in the mental

1:17:40

health sphere forever.

1:17:47

And I always just wanted him to show emotion, be vulnerable with me, right?

1:17:53

And then when he finally started doing the work and he got sober and he was like really

1:17:53

trying to understand himself and and rewrite these cycles, I

1:18:03

started to see him get tearful and express emotion.

1:18:07

And Travis, I was like, I did not like it.

1:18:13

It was uncomfortable.

1:18:15

I for a while there I found it unattractive.

1:18:18

I found it immasculine.

1:18:19

I did not like it.

1:18:21

And I was like, oh never mind.

1:18:22

Just like go punch something.

1:18:23

Like I much prefer that because that's what I had understood understood about masculinity

1:18:23

at the time.

1:18:28

Right.

1:18:29

And so there was so much

1:18:31

There it required so much of us being willing to s to hear that, to experience that ick

1:18:31

that I had within myself and say, Well, okay, well, just because I see it that way doesn't

1:18:43

mean that it's accurate.

1:18:44

What is this?

1:18:45

Like, what is there about me and my definition of masculinity that is working against

1:18:45

this?

1:18:51

He's giving me everything I've wanted.

1:18:53

And now I'm saying, ick?

1:18:55

Like, what is that?

1:18:57

And so they're they're

1:18:58

is constantly this push and pull of how we view our gender roles, how how we view each

1:18:58

other as falling within those.

1:19:04

And am I really ready to get the version of him that I've been asking for?

1:19:09

Or is this all just this constant demand that he change without any room to actually let

1:19:09

him?

1:19:18

Yeah, and it's it's gotta be hard, like, on both sides for for you to see him make that

1:19:18

change and for him to start making that change.

1:19:26

'Cause I will say like I'm very I've always been pretty emotional that the only time the

1:19:26

only thing that I still to this day have a hard time with is when I get anxious or

1:19:38

depressed and start kind of pushing people away, I I become pretty emotionless and I can

1:19:46

You numb out.

1:19:47

moments of when moments of anger I can say the rudest thing and walk away and I feel

1:19:47

nothing and it's to the point where I've basically felt like, Well, is there something

1:19:57

wrong?

1:19:57

Do I have some psychiatric disorder?

1:19:59

Like and it's i it I know I I am smiling and but I don't take it lightly.

1:20:06

It's just I but everything else is like I I can tear up once in a while.

1:20:12

I can

1:20:13

When it comes to my kids I feel a lot of emotion.

1:20:16

When it comes to my wife, I feel a lot of emotion.

1:20:18

It's just those moments.

1:20:20

It's like a numbness overcomes me.

1:20:22

Well, of course.

1:20:23

I mean, I I think that that's a much more common experience than you might think or feel,

1:20:23

especially in those moments.

1:20:31

When we numb out, it's there's so much more, like our threshold for distress is going to

1:20:31

become so much higher.

1:20:41

And the numbing is a is a response that our body's giving us that we're overwhelmed.

1:20:45

It's actually just trying to protect us.

1:20:46

It's it's shutting us down to for preservation.

1:20:51

And so a around those times, yeah, like we will say things that we don't mean.

1:20:54

We will think things that we actually don't want.

1:20:57

And there is kind of this part that helps us navigate.

1:21:00

So then when you and your wife have this code word, whatever this might be, it might be

1:21:00

something that when she starts to see you isolating, instead of it being like, hey,

1:21:09

Travis, like, you know, I think you might need to see someone, you know, like anything

1:21:09

like that that's just like, ugh, go away.

1:21:14

Shut up.

1:21:15

I don't want to hear it.

1:21:16

Stop talking to me.

1:21:16

I don't need it.

1:21:17

It's instead it can be this kind of code word that's specifically for that, that this

1:21:17

healthy version of you and her come up with together that then becomes this this reminder

1:21:29

later on, you know?

1:21:30

But the numbing out and all of that is is a relatively normal experience, just depending

1:21:30

on the severity of it.

1:21:37

And if you wonder if anything's going on, then obviously I'm always someone to to

1:21:37

recommend an assessment or some sort of formal intervention if you need it.

1:21:44

But a lot of the time if we

1:21:46

Lead with more grace and give ourselves more compassion and each other, we might be able

1:21:46

to mitigate how deep that that dip goes.

1:21:55

Yeah.

1:21:56

So she she always says like, you know, I need you to communicate more.

1:21:59

So the other day I had a an experience but I'm I when I I I believe I communicate well,

1:21:59

but I don't always say the right words at the right times.

1:22:08

So I said something the other day, this was like two or three days ago, and you know, I

1:22:08

made her get teary eyed and fill all this stuff and uh afterwards I said

1:22:25

you know, I'm not like trying to be mean to you, like I'm really trying to communicate

1:22:25

with you.

1:22:30

And she's like, Well, I don't like that you feel that way.

1:22:33

I said she said, because I feel like you're pushing my me away.

1:22:37

I said, but in reality I'm trying to ask you for help.

1:22:42

And that's n it's very rare for me to turn around and say, you know what, I'm actually

1:22:42

communicating you with you this way, even though I'm not saying the correct words in the

1:22:51

right order and it sounds terrible, I know.

1:22:54

Like this is my way of asking you for help, so what can we do together to get through it?

1:22:59

Like what what can you do to help push me through this rut that I'm in to get over it?

1:23:05

And that changed her perspective and she basically in a way said, Okay, well then don't be

1:23:05

such a douchebag and s come up and say it that way from the very beginning.

1:23:16

I said, But you know that's not possible with me.

1:23:19

Yeah.

1:23:20

Well, and again, it's it's gonna take so much more con like you guys are also in the thick

1:23:20

of it right now.

1:23:26

So like I I do think that we need some some grace all around.

1:23:29

It is gonna take some time for you guys to figure out what kind of language works best,

1:23:29

right?

1:23:34

Like I need a plane landed first.

1:23:36

So if you were to start the conversation with, hey, I'm needing help from you and here's

1:23:36

why, and here's a solution I think that might be helpful, right?

1:23:45

It it'll put it'll turn off that like.

1:23:48

defensive, protective emotional part of her brain and turn on her solution focused side of

1:23:48

her brain.

1:23:55

Right?

1:23:55

But if you're just giving raw data about like what she's doing wrong or how terrible

1:23:55

things are, there it's yeah, it's a lost cause.

1:24:02

We're not gonna get there.

1:24:04

that's the thing that I need to work on is just uh saying what I need before I get into

1:24:04

that raw data.

1:24:10

To say, you know what, like I'm looking for you to help me in any way that you can, and

1:24:10

then shoot off whatever it was that I was thinking.

1:24:19

Because I I know deep down that this like will change the conversation dramatically.

1:24:24

I just don't always think that way in the moment.

1:24:27

Totally.

1:24:27

And if it and if she is somebody that needs solution focused first, then that's kind of

1:24:27

something you can do when you're considering what you're gonna share with her, why you're

1:24:35

gonna share it, what's the solution you're suggesting, and how she can help you through

1:24:35

it.

1:24:40

But a lot of the a lot of the time we just give our partners raw data and then we're just

1:24:40

like, hey, I just need you to help me clean this up.

1:24:47

But because it was so raw, it creates its own problems in the attempt of finding a

1:24:47

solution from the beginning.

1:24:54

Yeah, for sure.

1:24:56

Jeez, I I feel like we could uh go on with this conversation for a long, long time.

1:25:05

but I do have one last question here for you and then just a few follow ups.

1:25:11

For someone listening right now who is sick of repeating the same arguments, feeling

1:25:11

reactive, and wondering if change is even possible, what would you want them to hear

1:25:21

today?

1:25:23

It has to start with you.

1:25:25

If you don't fully fundamentally believe that you can change, then you won't.

1:25:30

If you aren't open to taking radical self-responsibility over how you interpret yourself,

1:25:30

your friends, your family, the world, and start taking ownership over that, you will

1:25:42

continue to feel victimized by all of the problems in the world.

1:25:46

So when you notice yourself being reactive, there has to be this point in you that gets

1:25:46

sick of your own shit.

1:25:53

And says, okay, what can I do about this?

1:25:56

Most of the time when we're talking about anger coming through, it's because things in my

1:25:56

environment are not conducive to me staying regulated.

1:26:05

So we want to control the environment around us.

1:26:08

And once you take that radical self-responsibility, determine what's actually within your

1:26:08

control, which is really just you, your thoughts, your behaviors, what you do with them,

1:26:16

then things will start to kind of shift.

1:26:19

you'll take more you'll be feel more empowered, you'll take more ownership over yourself

1:26:19

and ultimately feel that much more regulated over time because you know that no matter

1:26:29

what anyone else does, it is up to you to determine what you do with it.

1:26:35

I absolutely love that answer because it's I feel that way with like just life in general.

1:26:41

It's up to you to, you know, get the help you need if you need it.

1:26:47

And it's I I think of myself when I was trying to get through or figure out my mental

1:26:47

health issues until I actually admitted that I have a had a problem.

1:26:59

I wasn't getting anywhere.

1:27:01

Mm-hmm.

1:27:02

No, and it was the same reason why in the beginning I blamed my husband's anger for all of

1:27:02

the things that were wrong in our relationship.

1:27:09

Until I then realized, Oh, no wonder he's hulk smashing through walls.

1:27:13

You won't let him leave when he's saying he needs to.

1:27:16

Because I was anxiously attached and I needed these things in real time.

1:27:20

I needed him to tell me that we were okay instead of me doing my own work to regulate

1:27:20

myself and know that I will be okay no matter what ends up happening between the two of

1:27:28

us.

1:27:28

Right.

1:27:29

Like there's there's so much of that that we unintentionally outsource our happiness, our

1:27:29

joy, our regulation, our confidence, our esteem, our self-control.

1:27:40

We outsource to other people and we wonder when they f why they fumble it.

1:27:44

When ultimately we're asking them to.

1:27:46

We're giving away all of our power.

1:27:48

And then we wonder why we continue to feel powerless in our own existence.

1:27:54

Very, very well said.

1:27:56

Now I'm gonna kinda throw a mental health curveball here just cause it's uh what do you

1:27:56

feel like is the biggest stigma when it comes to mental health?

1:28:13

That it's all in your head.

1:28:17

That we we are psychosomatic beings.

1:28:22

And the idea that if we're having a hard time, it's only because of our mind is a very

1:28:22

wild experience.

1:28:28

It's all interconnected, it is all affecting everything within us.

1:28:33

And then the other part is that if you seek guidance in mental health, that there must be

1:28:33

something wrong with you.

1:28:40

When in reality it's finding what's right with you and doubling and tripling down on that.

1:28:46

I love that.

1:28:46

And it's for me, I honestly did not make the connection that mental health was connected

1:28:46

to my body and all internet connected until I actually went to a more of a non Western

1:29:00

medicine doctor.

1:29:02

And they're like, No, like your your gut health can affect your mental health.

1:29:06

I said, I would have never known because I've always been thrown this way and been told

1:29:06

this.

1:29:14

Like yeah, it's

1:29:15

Not highly it's not always talked about.

1:29:18

No, it's not.

1:29:19

And so much of emotion is just electricity, right?

1:29:22

It's energy and motion.

1:29:23

And what we're seeing now is people who suppress anger, who suppress sadness and grief and

1:29:23

all of these things, they're now having their highest at cardiovascular risk.

1:29:34

They're they're ending up with autoimmune disorders.

1:29:37

There's all sorts of these things that end up coming through because of us viewing mental

1:29:37

health as only having to do.

1:29:45

with the brain and not seeing that we are a full integrated being and why wouldn't one

1:29:45

thing affect the other?

1:29:52

for sure.

1:29:54

It's it's all crazy.

1:29:55

It's all crazy.

1:29:57

But but I love it.

1:29:59

I love love hearing all the different things.

1:30:01

Uh where can people find you?

1:30:06

So I recently changed all my handles away from my practice name and to my name.

1:30:11

I'm working on my visibility wounds.

1:30:13

Um so you can find me pretty much anywhere at Davina Hehn or my website is just a study

1:30:13

space.

1:30:20

But anyone realistically, I'd imagine anyone who who wants to find me will.

1:30:26

Perfect.

1:30:28

And the last question here is we've I feel like we've covered a lot of ground in our

1:30:28

conversation tonight.

1:30:35

Uh is there anything that you want to bring up that we did not discuss?

1:30:41

My gosh, everything probably.

1:30:44

No, I just I think there's there's a lot of unnecessary struggling and suffering within

1:30:44

ourselves that would be mitigated if we sought guidance and

1:30:57

people, community around us.

1:30:59

We are more isolated than we've ever been and yet somehow supposed to be more connected

1:30:59

based on all the social media and all of that.

1:31:07

We are lonely.

1:31:09

And I would strongly encourage people, no matter what, to seek support in any way, shape,

1:31:09

or form.

1:31:15

You're not the only one going through it, I guarantee it.

1:31:18

And just lead with curiosity, compassion for yourself.

1:31:21

It's it's an underrated skill for sure.

1:31:27

Awesome.

1:31:27

I agree.

1:31:28

It's it yeah I bring this up all the time on the show and it's something that I learn more

1:31:28

and more each day is you're not alone.

1:31:36

You think you're alone and you feel alone but it's possible that the person sitting next

1:31:36

to you is going through something similar, you have no idea.

1:31:44

Well yeah, and down to your point about going into those depths and isolating, it's a lot

1:31:44

of that loneliness is self-made, unfortunately.

1:31:55

Well, Davina, thank you so much for coming onto the show and I admire what you've done

1:31:55

with uh Anger Intelligence and I've learned a thing or two.

1:32:06

And s thanks for taking the time to speak with me.

1:32:11

Absolutely.

1:32:12

Thank you for having me.

1:32:12

It was an honor.

1:32:14

And thank you to all those that are listening.

1:32:16

If you enjoyed today's show, please follow us and leave us a review.

1:32:20

It'd really help.

1:32:22

Thanks again.

1:32:22

Until next time.