High-Functioning Depression Is the Lie No One Sees

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Hello and welcome to Overcome with Travis White.

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This is a place for you to share your mental health stories.

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I am very excited to welcome today's guest.

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We are speaking with Sarah Michelle Sherman.

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Sarah is a writer whose work explores mental health, motherhood, and the emotional fallout

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of divorce with raw honesty and zero filter.

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Her essays have been featured in HuffPost, Today, and Scary Mommy.

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She's here to talk about

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healing heartbreak and the messy truth of rebuilding a life you didn't plan for.

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It's the one thing that really stuck out to me when I read this is raw.

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I like the raw stories.

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So, Sarah, welcome to the show.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Excited.

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I think we're going to have a great conversation and I don't want to waste any more time.

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So I'm just going to turn the microphone over to you and have you tell the audience about

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yourself.

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Okay.

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So yeah, in terms of mental health, I've had a bit of a journey.

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Around 17, I started experiencing, you know, what would later be explained to me as

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depression was...

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you know, it's hard to say what was normal teenage insecurities and problems that arise

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with every, you know, teenage girl.

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But I felt like there was something stronger going on.

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There was, you know, a dark cloud over everything, so to speak, and just a really, you

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know, we all have internal dialogue.

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but the voice that I was hearing was the meanest voice I'd ever heard.

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So battling that became extremely challenging.

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So when I started to talk about this with my parents a little bit, my pediatrician at the

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time was the first person to put me on an antidepressant and that...

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when everything sort of, I guess, started in terms of really looking into my mental health

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and what it means for me and what it was going to mean for my life moving forward.

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So for the next few years, for the next few years, I experimented with a bunch of

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different

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SSRIs because for a long time it was, I was told I just had, you know, depression and not

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just, but was told I had depression and anxiety.

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And so that's what was being treated on top of some insomnia.

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So for a long time I was taking SSRIs and I was taking Ambien and still not feeling

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better.

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And

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Then things got real bad.

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My senior year of college, I overdosed on Ambien after drinking a lot of alcohol and just

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having a very bad night.

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It was definitely a wake up call for me and for the people around me and made the decision

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then.

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you know, to actually see a specialist, you know, a psychiatrist and really try to figure

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out what was going on with me.

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From there, I still tried different SSRIs, but thankfully I eventually ended up with a

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psychiatric nurse practitioner who was the first person who really

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took the time to understand my story and what I was experiencing.

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And that's when I got the diagnosis of bipolar and ADHD.

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And...

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that I think those diagnoses saved my life.

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So do you have the bipolar one or two disorder?

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So I know there's a little bit of difference too.

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Okay.

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which, so when I was first diagnosed, was just told bipolar, but I had some, little bit of

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trouble with that because I didn't feel that I necessarily had a blatant manic episode.

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And then kind of slowly over the years, I and my doctor and my

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the different therapists that I saw started to recognize these hypomanic episodes, which,

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you know, I didn't really know what they were, you know, because it looks, they look

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different for everybody.

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And for me, it could look like rearranging all of my furniture.

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could look like.

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a shopping spree, it you know what I mean?

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It could look like a bunch of different things that aren't necessarily screaming, you

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know, mania.

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but you know, impulsivity and, uh, you know, functioning with less and less sleep and

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things like that.

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Um, so finding the right medication and understanding more what was going on chemically,

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uh, was huge.

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for me.

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It changed everything.

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can only imagine and I've heard I've heard too many people say that it's finding that

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balance and it's like I was lucky I was able to find the first thing that worked I didn't

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need anything like way harsh but I hear stories all the time well it took me like six

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different types of medication to finally get the right thing to work

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Yeah.

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And it's, it's a very difficult process and weaning off of some of these drugs is the most

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bizarre, terrible feeling in the world.

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mean, there's like, I remember getting off of effectser and that's the first time I

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experienced those, like, they feel like zaps in your brain and it's

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it's awful and you're like breaking it down into like, you know, little like a smaller

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piece each day, you know, trying to get it out of your system.

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And it's tough.

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And what I think I was fortunate that I over the years became very aware of when I was

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when medications were not working for me and when I was starting to slip back into those

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depressive states.

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Because I think when it gets the most dangerous is when you aren't able to recognize it.

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So I was able to, you know, really become an advocate for myself and became more more

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comfortable speaking up when I didn't feel right.

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I think that's like the most important thing too is until you figure out how to speak up

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for yourself and I honestly I want to say trust yourself to degree because when you're

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feeling that deep dark depression there's there's no trust there you don't you don't care

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so that's that's an important step like so kudos to you

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Thanks, it's a work in progress.

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Yes, absolutely.

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And I think that's, you know, it's, that was something I had to kind of come to terms

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with, which didn't happen right away, which is, you know, the fact that this is going to

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be something that I deal with my entire life.

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There's been times, you know, stretches of time where I've

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you know, gone a really long time without a bad depressive episode or, you know, less

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hypomanic episodes.

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And I think, you know, think I'm good, think I'm cured and start to wean off medications

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and then quickly realize, no, I need these medications in order to survive.

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Yes, for sure.

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And what was I going to say?

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I just lost my thought.

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Oh, okay.

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I got it back.

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Sorry.

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ah So like in those times that you're, you know, the deep dark depressive states, what

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does survival mode look like for you in every, like that everyday life of those deep dark

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places?

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it's a tough question.

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Uh, I think most recently it's, holding on to the fact that I know I've gotten through it

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before.

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and if I'm able to latch onto that, then that's, I guess what carries me through, but

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sometimes it's really hard to tap into that.

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But I think having, you know, having a really good therapist, who I feel I can reach out

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to at any point in time, having a support system, you know, with friends and family, at

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least having one or two people that, you know, I know I can go to when I'm feeling that

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low and they're gonna

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you know, no one knows what to say and there's not anything that anybody really can say to

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pull you out of that.

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And people just want to comfort you and that's what you need.

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You need to know you're not alone.

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But it's tough.

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Yeah.

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And I'll, I'll say, cause I go through some of these depressive, modes as well.

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And I came out of a kind of a dark one.

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lasted about two months where it was just like, you know, like, screw this.

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Like, I don't want to deal with this bull crap every day, but it's like, it all goes back

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to, I think for me, it's probably my kids, my family.

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I'm like, you know what?

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I have so much to live for.

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I need to just figure out how to push things aside.

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And then I think also once I realized like my therapist once told me, no, depression and

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your anxiety are never going to go away.

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You have to, your goal is to figure out ways to deal with them every day and reduce them.

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yeah.

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And I think the, you know, the parenting aspect of this is huge because for me, and this

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is kind of a dark reality, I guess, but becoming a mother kind of changed things for me in

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terms of my mental health.

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because of the fact that it took suicide off the table for me.

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At least as far as how I'm managing my mental health right now and I've been stable for a

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long time.

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I haven't been suicidal in a long time.

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But thinking of my son, it...

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it just makes it not an option anymore for me.

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And it's sad, you know, it's sad to think that I did think of it as an option at times.

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But I'm, you know, so grateful for my son for a million reasons, but he does, he keeps me

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alive.

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He keeps me going, you know.

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Yeah, that's awesome.

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And I love, you know, that it's like that unconditional love that the child brings to you.

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And it's like, this is it.

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This is a reason to live.

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And I have a friend that he tells me all the time, that's his only reason why he's still

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alive is because of his daughter.

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I'm like, that's sad, dude.

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Like you have a lot more people than that, but I can understand where you're coming from.

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So would you go?

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uh

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ahead.

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Natsuka, go.

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No, just, think it's, I think it's with the children, it's hard because it goes back, you

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know, the whole idea of, you know, suicide being a selfish act, you know, and I think

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when...

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You know, we think of ourselves as parents.

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We can't, we just cannot be selfish.

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That's, you can't, um you have to think of your kid first.

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But I have mixed feelings about the idea of suicide being selfish.

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So I don't know.

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You've read my mind.

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I do too.

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I have very mixed feelings and it's like, because I've suffered from suicidal ideation

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myself.

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There's been times where I've had stuff planned.

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I have a problem with like dissociating.

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There's a time where I was dissociating.

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I had something hanging up in the garage and I was ready to do something and my wife

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caught me.

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It was like three in the morning and I don't remember it.

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She just told me.

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This was after we had kids so

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And she's like, you need to get help.

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Like this is, this is it.

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And I've had that conversation many times with her.

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Like I, I'm indifferent about it.

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Like I think it's selfish, but not at the same time because nobody knows what that

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person's going through.

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Exactly.

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And I think, and I've written about this too, you know, the idea of physician assisted

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suicide for people who are in, you know, physical pain or, you know, are suffering from

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something, you know, that can be tested or, you know, proven, so to speak, you know,

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and a terminal illness, but who's to say that depression or bipolar or schizophrenia are

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not terminal illnesses as well?

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And I think it's, is a horrible thing to do to the people that love you.

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But that being said, I don't think the people that love you

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would want you to be in that much pain.

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And that's, you know, it's not something that anyone can ever understand.

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And it's not something I wish everyone understood, you know.

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I totally agree.

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I also get really bad anxiety.

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So my wife beforehand would be like, you know, why are you acting like this?

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And I was like, you don't know until you suffer through it.

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Like you, I can't really explain it because there's really almost sometimes no words for

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it.

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And then I, this last year we went through some stuff and she is anxious now.

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And I never thought she'd be the anxious person.

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It's good because even though we have anxieties over different things.

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So that's good.

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But I was like, you finally understand where I'm coming from now.

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She's like, yeah, I can finally see it.

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So that was, it was like helpful, but it sucked at the same time.

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Yeah, it's a double edged sword.

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Yeah.

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So do you do you feel like motherhood complicates depression or do think it kind of puts

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it at ease?

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complicates it.

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I think it just presents so many more opportunities to doubt myself, I guess, you know,

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and being really hard on myself is something I've done my whole life.

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you know, the depression.

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you know, makes it worse and makes it harder to quiet, you know, all that self doubt.

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But in some ways it's a really good distraction sometimes, you know, parenting is an

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impossible job and, you know, oh

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there's a million things that you can do wrong at any given point and it's terrifying.

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But it gives you purpose.

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It gives you a reason to get out of bed because you have no choice, you know?

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And for me, it's like, don't, you know, I don't wanna ever disappoint my son.

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I don't you know,

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It's a hard thing too, to think about like, don't want him to see me sad, but you know,

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being sad as a part of life.

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Um, and you have to understand the scope of human emotions, you know, and to, so it's,

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it's really tricky.

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and obviously they're, you know, when he gets to a certain age, you know, we'll have, you

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know, these tough conversations about mental health issues and things like that.

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Cause you know, I, I worry for him.

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to down the road if a lot of this stuff is genetic.

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So that's scary.

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And I've even wondered sometimes, he knows I take medicine.

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I wrote about this once too, like when he was really little, was...

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came into the bathroom when I was getting ready and started shaking one of my prescription

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bottles like a rattle.

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And it's like, and he's learning to say the word medicine.

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And, you know, I envisioned in that moment, like, you know, one day he asked me like, what

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are you taking this medicine for?

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Like, are you sick?

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You know, and it's, I think about how I'll answer, you know, that question.

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It's heavy.

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Yeah, that's a hard conversation.

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I'm sure those are some that I'll have to have later on.

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And I've actually never thought about it until you just said that.

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it's like, how do I explain that?

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Because there's times where I know that my kids, so all my kids are six and under, or

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yeah, six and under.

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And so there's times where I know that my kids know that I'm a little bit off, like

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whether it's...

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or my, I'm just being short that night.

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And there's times where I feel really guilty for not being as present as I want to be.

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Yes.

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Yeah, that's, yeah, that for me is huge.

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And that's where I get the most frustrated with my mental health issues because I think,

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you know, generally speaking, I have a pretty good handle on things.

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And like I was saying before, like I'm able to recognize, you know, when I start slipping,

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but it's always there and there's always this, there's always this voice in my head that's

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being mean to me.

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It just depends on how quiet I can get it, you know?

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But it frustrates me because it takes me out of the moment sometimes, you know?

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all I wanna be is with my four-year-old and...

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watching what he's doing and paying attention because it's changing every single second

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and it's amazing to witness and I hate the fact that there's this thing I can't control

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taking me away from that sometimes.

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Yeah, I totally, totally agree.

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Question though, do you have any methods that you use to shut up those voices that are

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going on in your head?

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know, maybe telling you you're not good enough or telling you whatever they are.

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Um, I wish I did.

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I really, uh, it's something I struggle with a lot.

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I don't, the only way I guess I know how to deal with them is to write about them.

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You know, what they're, you know, it's, it's how I make sense of, you know, most difficult

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things that I go through is, is writing about them and

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I think exploring the thoughts that come to me is important for my, just how I'm going to

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manage this for the rest of my life.

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It's about being honest and not, I talk about this in therapy, like you can't, the more

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you tell yourself, don't think that, you're.

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you're gonna think it, you it's like you have to embrace, you know, these thoughts and

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kind of just do the work to, I guess, understand where they're coming from, but also know

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that they are not necessarily the truth, you know, and it can get tricky.

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Yes, that is for sure.

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I'm, very guilty of having those same thoughts and voices, like, and it's most time.

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Mine are like, you're not good enough.

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You can't do this.

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Just like really negative thinking.

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But I want to, I have a question about your writing though.

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Do you have any fears that come up when you write so honestly about mental health or other

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things?

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Yeah, it's always, you know, I worry about hurting other people.

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So that's always a concern.

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And the more I write and the more relationships that I explore in my writing, it gets

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harder and harder because in order to tell my truth, to tell my story,

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you know, there's people that are not great characters in the story of my life, you know,

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and I just feel very strongly that I have to tell my truth.

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And I think I can do that in a way that, you know, protects the people that need

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protecting.

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But

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There's some people that don't need to be protected and I can't worry about them.

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And in terms of talking about my mental health struggles, I'm so passionate.

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I wish more people talked about their mental health struggles.

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I mean, we're getting better and better all the time, but it's, there's obviously still

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this stigma.

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There's people who dismiss it and downplay it and believe people are using it as a crutch

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or an excuse.

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And it needs to stop.

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It's crazy to me that all these other things that happen to the body, we take...

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we take seriously and we understand that these people need treatment and medication and

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there's no judgment for it.

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And when it comes to our minds, there's this judgment and it doesn't make any sense.

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You know, why would anyone choose this?

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You know.

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I love that.

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And I think the same thing, because it's like, you really think that I'd want to deal with

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this every day.

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It's not something that I want to carry on on my shoulders and have this burden.

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I want to touch based on one important thing that you said though there.

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And then you led into a good question.

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Actually, let's go to the question because I like this more.

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Why do you think we reward people for pretending like we're fine?

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You kind of spoke about, wasn't that like, know, society looks down on people for having

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mental health situations.

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And in the end, I feel like, oh, okay, well you're acting fine.

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So you must be fine.

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And so there is to me in my mind, like a reward for it.

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Why do you think society does that?

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I think because when people are honest about their emotions in a, in a way that is not,

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you know, happy and joyful, it scares people.

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And I think it makes people uncomfortable.

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And I think it's easier for people, to look the other way and not,

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you know, address these things.

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It's just like, you you think of like when you run into somebody in the supermarket and

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you say like, Hey, Bob, how you doing?

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And if they say anything other than like, fine, how are you?

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You're like, God, I didn't, I didn't want to hear all about Bob's problems today.

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You know, it's like, it's just, it's easier, you know, um, and it's more comfortable I

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think.

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And, but it's also a huge part of the problem because

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high functioning people can be severely depressed.

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I mean, think about all the, you know, the celebrity suicides that get attention because,

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you know, no one would ever know.

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And it's like, that's the whole point.

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You know, so to make assumptions is just kind of silly for anyone.

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Yes, yes, 100 % true.

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What do you think, I guess from your perspective, what does high functioning mental health

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actually look like behind closed doors?

24:59

so for me, you know, there have, you know, there's been times when my depression and has

24:59

kept me from getting out of bed and I've called in to work, you know, but for the most

25:12

part, I always did what I had to do and I went to work and I went to school and I, know,

25:12

as much as I would be

25:22

Um, you know, in grad school, freaking out, telling myself I wasn't smart enough to be

25:22

there.

25:29

There was no way I could ever do it.

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You know, crying the night before, you know, a paper was due because I have a complete

25:32

failure.

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You know, that's what I'm telling myself.

25:40

And, um, but I, you know, I get the paper done and I get an A, you know, it's no one would

25:40

know.

25:48

Um, and.

25:50

For me, those moments of or those episodes of hypomania could result in achievements for

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me.

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It could make me really motivated.

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There's been times and I don't realize it until after, but one night I sent out like 10

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pitches to different.

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you know, magazines trying to get essays published.

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And then, you know, a few days later, I'm like, yeah, I think I was a little manic, you

26:22

know, but it can be a good thing, you know, it can make you clean your house, you know,

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it's, it presents itself in a million different ways, you know, but I think just the whole

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idea that you just, you can never,

26:40

you can't assume by what people are, you know, presenting on the outside, you know, and

26:40

how well they're doing.

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It's like I went, it reminds me, I went to this one, I've been to many therapists over the

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years and unfortunately a lot of bad ones.

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And I have an amazing one now, thank God.

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But I went to one, it was my first session and

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Um, you know, she says, you know, tell me a little bit about what's going on, you know,

27:04

and I just say, I've been, you know, really depressed and, you know, tell her a little

27:13

bit.

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And she said, but you're so tan and pretty.

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What do you mean?

27:17

Like, what's the problem?

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You know, and I, this is going to go well, you know, but it's like, how are you working in

27:18

mental health?

27:23

And you can say something like that, you know, but.

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Yes, I've learned throughout the years that you, it's like the whole cliche quote, don't

27:30

judge a book by its cover.

27:37

Okay.

27:40

You really can't like, and it's, and since I started this podcast, especially it's like,

27:40

you have no idea what people are going through.

27:49

The person sitting next in the cubicle next to you work.

27:54

you know, could be suicidal and you have no idea and it goes back to the whole, I guess

27:54

another cliche thing, fake it till you make it.

28:02

Right.

28:03

Mm Yeah.

28:04

And that's the thing, because we have, we don't have a choice, you know, we have to make

28:04

money, we have to provide for our children, we have to like,

28:16

we have to keep going, you know, and it's hard to admit that you need help, you know, I

28:16

think, and it shouldn't be, but it is.

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And, you know, it goes, I think, back to, you know, this whole idea that, you know, having

28:25

these mental health struggles makes you like a weaker person.

28:36

you like you can't cope as well or you're, you know, too sensitive.

28:42

And I think more often than not that because I am so in touch with my emotions and I have

28:42

a lot of empathy and I, you know, I think it makes me a more compassionate person and it

28:56

makes me...

28:57

you know, more accepting and more patient with people at times, you know, but it's, I

28:57

don't know, it's the weirdest thing because it's like you want people to understand, but

29:10

you don't want them to suffer, you know, it's.

29:16

All right.

29:17

yes it is very hard.

29:19

And when you started, you know, when you stopped curating your pain and started telling

29:19

the truth, was there anything, any of the, any changes that you noticed?

29:30

Like what was that like?

29:33

So the best thing that comes out of my writing is whenever someone reaches out and says

29:33

that they connected to it and that they went through something similar and it made them

29:49

feel better knowing that someone else understood.

29:53

And that's kind of always

29:56

my goal is to impact someone in a way that even, you know, even though it's a fleeting

29:56

moment, if it makes them feel less alone than I did something right, you know, and if

30:11

telling my brutal, raw, ugly truths is what makes that happen, then I'm happy to do it.

30:20

That's a good goal to have.

30:22

think just touching that one person, even if it's out of every hundred people, that's

30:22

where I honestly find the most inspiration for myself.

30:33

So I oh, that one person found me and helped them out.

30:37

So this is great.

30:38

Yep.

30:39

Yeah, absolutely.

30:43

And how do you know though, how, let me think of how to work this better.

30:48

How can you tell the difference between burnout versus being depressed?

30:53

Hmm.

30:56

I think burnout, there would be more evidence of why you were feeling that way, you know?

31:09

And whereas like depression, I think it's harder to justify, I guess, you know I mean?

31:17

In some ways, it's like,

31:22

You know, if you're burned out, means that you have too much on your plate.

31:26

You you pro you're doing too many things.

31:29

You have too many responsibilities.

31:30

you know, you're pushing yourself too hard.

31:32

You're not sleeping enough, you know, things like that.

31:35

Whereas depression, can just take over with no warning and cripple you, you know?

31:43

and there's no reason for

31:46

Yes, totally, And it's, I can't tell you how many times that I've thought, you know, sat

31:46

there and thought whether it's depression or anxiety was like, okay, why?

31:56

Like, is this even going on?

31:57

Like I have nothing to even like worry about right now because things are in a good spot.

32:03

I nothing to be depressed about like jobs going okay.

32:07

Like I'm doing this, I'm doing that.

32:09

I have kids that love me.

32:11

I have a family like, and it's just like, bam, here we are.

32:14

Yeah.

32:15

Yeah.

32:16

And it's like just a waiting game at that point.

32:21

What will tomorrow bring, right?

32:24

Exactly.

32:24

Yeah.

32:28

I question though back to your writing just because I love what you do, writing so rawly

32:28

for that rough writing that you do for and open up to people.

32:40

Was writing something you always wanted to do or did you just kind of fall into it?

32:44

How did that come about?

32:47

I've always wanted to write.

32:52

guess I sort of, I think my like moment I attribute to it is in seventh grade, I wrote a

32:52

short story and got some praise from my English teacher and felt good about myself for the

33:10

first time.

33:11

And then,

33:13

Uh, but it was really in college that I started taking creative writing classes and,

33:13

started to really develop my voice and explore, writing, just brutally and honestly,

33:27

because I was feeling so much at the time.

33:30

It was the only way I could, kind of process it and,

33:35

And it was actually like what connected me to two of my professors who became my mentors

33:35

and really made me feel like I had a little bit of talent and had something to say, which

33:48

was important.

33:49

And actually one of my professors in college, an undergrad,

33:55

it was the first personal essay class I ever took and I was just, I loved, you know, the

33:55

style.

34:03

I didn't even really know what a personal essay was, you know, and um was just discovering

34:03

this new genre and was just really impressed by the professor and the work he had done and

34:15

he had taught in prisons and he just had incredible stories and he suffered

34:21

from mental health issues.

34:23

And I wrote an essay for his class and in it I was writing about being depressed.

34:32

I wrote something in it, something along the lines of, I wish I could stop breathing like

34:32

just for a second, just to see if I would fight.

34:43

or something like that.

34:45

Like I wish I could not breathe just to see if I would fight to breathe, you know?

34:48

And the professor was worried about me and ended up getting like a knock at my door from

34:48

the, know, resident director doing like a wellness check on me.

34:59

But it helped me.

35:01

It got me to talk, you know.

35:04

to a counselor there at the school.

35:06

You know, it just like got me to be even more honest about what was going on.

35:10

And it was also nice to know that, you know, I had someone who gave a shit.

35:17

Right?

35:17

And it's, I've actually never heard a story where a professor actually cared that much.

35:23

All the professors, I don't remember having one that like would even think twice about

35:23

something that I wrote.

35:31

So that's, that's really cool.

35:33

Yeah.

35:34

Yeah, I was lucky to have a few really incredible professors, both in undergrad and in my

35:34

graduate program, who just really made me feel seen and understood and like I could be a

35:47

writer, which was everything to me.

35:50

That's really cool.

35:51

It kind of goes back to what you said at the very first of show, having people in your

35:51

corner.

35:57

And that's, I think that is means for every aspect of life, not just mental health.

36:02

Like it should be, to me, it should be everything.

36:04

Agreed.

36:05

Yeah.

36:06

And these are people.

36:08

You sure do.

36:09

And it's like, it's not just the, it's the right people.

36:13

It's like you need those people.

36:16

think that's important because it's the right people.

36:19

want somebody who's willing to listen to you when you just need to talk.

36:22

Somebody who's willing to give you advice when you need it.

36:25

But that's not just any advice.

36:28

Like you need the raw truth.

36:29

Like you need people to be blunt once in while.

36:32

Yeah.

36:33

And you need people who, you know, will carry all the versions of you, you know, um and

36:33

yeah, and not judge you for it.

36:45

Exactly.

36:46

And it's, the people who are judging you and it's like, well, well, it's something about

36:46

them.

36:51

It's not you.

36:52

Yeah, they're not your people.

36:53

And I actually went through kind of an intense therapy session about this.

36:59

And I remember he's like, well, if that's going on, you need to let go of this person.

37:05

You shouldn't have any contact with them.

37:08

And so at that time, I remember I started being more upfront with people and saying like,

37:08

no, like I don't need to be treated this way.

37:15

If you want to treat me this way, like I'm going to cut all ties.

37:18

Yeah.

37:20

Yeah.

37:20

And I think, yeah, the more honest you are with yourself about what you need from people.

37:26

And I think it's important to like set, to have different expectations for different

37:26

people and the roles they play in your life.

37:33

And, you know, you have to, you have to have different

37:39

relationships with every single person in your life and you and each of those people can

37:39

help you, you know, in different ways and love you in different ways.

37:48

And, you know, some of them will be better when you're feeling down and some of them will

37:48

be better when you're just want to have a good time, you know, but you need to you need

37:58

them all.

38:00

And yeah, sometimes it's hard to figure out those people.

38:03

remember this too.

38:04

And cause I have like certain expectations with people, whether family members or friends

38:04

or whatever.

38:10

And it's my anxiety.

38:12

Sometimes it's like, those expectations aren't met, like it hits me in the face, like a

38:12

pound of bricks.

38:17

like, well, why didn't this, why did it happen this way?

38:20

So at one point my therapist was like, no, you need to, at some point with some of these

38:20

people, you need to lower your expectations.

38:28

Yeah.

38:28

because otherwise this part of you is always going to fail.

38:34

Yeah, you're always going to be disappointed.

38:36

all the time and I was and I was like, and as soon as I was able to do that and set the

38:36

correct boundaries, I realized like some of my relationships got better.

38:45

Yeah.

38:45

Yeah.

38:47

So I just have honestly a few more questions here for you.

38:52

What's one uncomfortable truth about healing people don't talk about?

39:00

uncomfortable truth about healing.

39:07

I think.

39:12

Wow, that's a good question.

39:16

I think the thing about healing is that for me,

39:24

I don't, I'm not to a place yet where I, I certainly don't feel healed.

39:33

I don't even know that I would say that I'm in the process of healing because I still feel

39:33

like I have so much to figure out.

39:44

And I think that that's maybe the uncomfortable truth is that there is just so much

39:44

uncertainty.

39:51

which makes it really terrifying because there's so many, you know, there's so many

39:51

unanswered questions when it comes to this stuff.

40:00

And I just think it makes it, you know, it makes it more painful.

40:04

think things that have proof are easier, you know.

40:12

very well said because what you reminded me of something that I can't remember exact the

40:12

exact quote but something was said to me once about healing it's like are we ever fully

40:22

healed like do we ever really get there it's like to think about it we we really don't

40:22

it's just a continuous journey

40:34

Yeah, and I think, yeah, because, you know, there's, life should be full of ups and downs

40:34

and, you know, and there's always gonna be things that, you know, break you down and make

40:51

you feel like you failed or that you can't go on.

40:56

but there's also gonna be things that bring you joy and make you feel like things are

40:56

possible and that's what you gotta hang on to, I guess.

41:06

Yeah, I agree.

41:08

And you just made me think of something really dumb, it's, you you're in those moments of

41:08

joy and it's like, then something bad happens, like, okay, well, does this shit ever end?

41:19

Does it ever end?

41:21

exactly.

41:22

And I don't think it ever does, you know, I think it's just, I don't know, for me, I'm

41:22

just so grateful that I, you know, have been given platforms to be able to write about it.

41:33

And it's what I plan to continue doing.

41:35

I think it's the

41:38

I think it'll be what helps me battle this for the rest of my life, is having this outlet.

41:43

And I think my goal is to publish a book and reach more people.

41:50

like we were saying before the show, it's just breaking the stigma.

41:56

It just, the conversations.

41:58

m

41:59

around these topics need to continue to evolve and there needs to be more awareness and

41:59

there needs to be more compassion.

42:09

Yeah, I agree.

42:10

it's, it's, I think the thing to mention there is starting those conversations and making

42:10

it, it's going back to something you said.

42:18

I think at the beginning is making it so people don't feel alone.

42:21

And sometimes when somebody feels that way, that's when they come out of their box or

42:21

their dark spot and start telling their story.

42:30

And I think that's like one of the things that we need to do going forward is just

42:30

continue telling our stories.

42:35

Absolutely.

42:36

So, where can people find you?

42:40

sarahmichelle-sherman.com and my Instagram handle is sarahmichelle-sherman as well.

42:48

looks like I just lost my

42:52

It's okay though.

42:54

It's the last question, so.

42:56

eh We've just had a lot of discussion here, mainly about depression and mental health.

43:05

Is there anything else that you'd like to bring up that we did not cover tonight?

43:14

I don't think so.

43:15

think I just, you know, I would encourage everybody.

43:22

to, you know.

43:25

Reach out to people that you care about and make sure they know that they're loved and

43:25

that they're seen and that they're valued because you never know what someone's going

43:39

through and you never know the voices that are going on inside their head.

43:44

It can, you can save someone's life.

43:46

And I think it's just important to, you know, I tell my son all the time, you know, to be

43:46

kind.

43:53

And he'll say to me, why are you always telling me that?

43:56

And it's like, because it is the most important thing.

44:02

Yes, very important, very well said.

44:06

Well, sir, thank you so much for coming on the show.

44:08

Sorry about these last minute technical difficulties.

44:14

And I do want to say I admire the rawness that you present and I love what you're doing,

44:14

telling such, know, rawness, having such, what's the word I'm looking for?

44:30

just the way you're writing your essays because it's like not very many people do that.

44:33

They don't show that raw side of themselves and I think it's important.

44:38

So thank you.

44:40

I appreciate that a lot.

44:43

And thank you to all those that are listening.

44:45

If this episode resonated with you, please share it and give us a follow.

44:49

And that'd help us out a lot.

44:52

Thanks again.

44:52

Until next time.