Stoicism and Mental Health: Leadership, Discipline, and Surviving Life in a Submarine

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Hello and welcome to Overcome, a mental health podcast.

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I'm your host, Travis White.

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This is a place for you to share your mental health stories.

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And I'm very excited to be speaking with William Spears tonight.

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William is a submarine warfare officer, author, and military philosopher.

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William writes about leadership, philosophy, ethics, and the morality of war.

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William, welcome to the show.

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Hey Travis, I'm really glad to be here, thanks.

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It's the pleasure is all mine.

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I'm excited for our conversation.

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So without wasting any more time, I'm just going to turn the microphone over to you.

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Yeah, sure.

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So I, I am a submarine officer as, as Travis said, so I, I joined the Navy right out of

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high school.

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I enlisted, you know, as a, as just a guy from small town, Louisiana, without really, a

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plan to get to an education.

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And whenever I joined the Navy, you know, my parents said, Hey, this will be good for you

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if you, just make sure that if they offer you school, you take it.

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And if, you know, if they don't, then you seek it.

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but basically try to get as much school as you can.

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And so that was kind of my mantra throughout.

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so I listed into the nuclear propulsion program to learn how to be a technician on nuclear

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powered ships.

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I trained as an electrician.

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And before I made it to a ship, I was offered to go to the United States Naval Academy and

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commission as an officer.

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And so I took that path.

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and majored in mechanical engineering so I could go back into nuclear power and go back

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into submarines.

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And that's where I've been since.

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And so I've done a career in submarines.

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I was a weapons officer on an attack submarine.

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I've served on two attack submarines and one ballistic missile submarine.

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My most recent sea tour was as the executive officer, second in command of a ballistic

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missile submarine.

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And I'm kind of in between right now.

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I'm working at the Pentagon.

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do, you do a rotation where you spend some time on a ship and some time ashore, you know,

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like an office or something like that.

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So right now I'm working at the Pentagon, doing financial stuff, looking at how expensive

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ships are.

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It turns out they're expensive.

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Who knew?

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And, and I'm hoping, you know, next year I'll, go back into the training pipeline to go,

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go be a captain and hope, hopefully I'll go be a commanding officer for submarine.

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Who knows?

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And you know, there's a million things that could happen to prevent that from happening.

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But, but that's the plan right now.

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And so, you know, that's, that's where I'm at.

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And that's kind of what I do as a, as a hobby, you know, as, kind of a outlet, I've always

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been a writer and over the past decade, I've, I've, I've devoted myself to writing

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philosophy, writing on philosophy specifically, and specifically on

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published a book recently on the stoic philosophy and how it plays into the morality of

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warfare.

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It has a lot of adjacency with mental health, which is kind of why I'm here on your show.

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But that's a book that's out right now.

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And it's a hot topic right now.

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It's very interesting to me and to, I think, a lot of people.

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And so that's kind of my deal.

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And that's what's going on with me right now.

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Awesome, I love it.

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And first question, what first drew you to Stoicism and when did you realize it had real

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world relevance to the military environment?

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Well, it's, I came across it while I was a student at the Naval Academy, like circa 2004

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or so.

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And there's kind of like an undercurrent of stoicism there.

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It's always been popular there, owing largely to a famous Admiral named Vice Admiral

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Stockdale, who is, you know, he's a heroic figure and he was in a very interesting

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character.

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could do a whole other podcast show on him, but he was a hero of mine.

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And he was, he was deeply read in the stoics and he, you know, wrote and spoke a lot about

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that in his later years.

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And that was like in the seventies, you know, but his writings are something I came across

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when I was a student there.

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And I was kind of like, this is, Holy crap.

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This is how I think about stuff anyway.

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And, and it has a lot to do with coping strategies and dealing with stress and, and,

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maintaining your moral identity in a, in a environment that seeks to compromise it.

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And very relevant to his situation whenever he was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, but it

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also, know, whenever you're you're You're in a military academy and you know, just trying

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to survive that environment the uh the that same philosophy that helped the guy get

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through prison Feels really relevant maybe maybe for reasons that that are kind of silly

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in retrospect but you know, stress is stress and and philosophy is is

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you it's evergreen and it applies to many situations in life for very valid reasons.

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So anyway, that's kind of where I came into it.

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And, ah you know, I went off into the submarine world kind of when I graduated 2008 era

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and didn't really think that much about philosophy anymore.

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I kind of thought, you know, I got it.

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And then I spent a few years on a submarine.

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And when you're doing that, you don't really engage a lot with pop culture.

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And then whenever I came to shore duty again from there, uh, you know, that I started

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like, was writing on leadership and, and leader development and things like that.

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And I came across this Stoic blog and I discovered that there was this whole like Stoic

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blogosphere.

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And there's this whole thing where all of a sudden everyone is a Stoic, you know, and I'm

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like, what the hell is this?

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You know, and,

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And so that that's kind of what inspired me is like, oh, like maybe I should write about

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this.

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I like writing about things.

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And I think that there's a lot of material there.

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There's a lot, a lot to do with investigating kind of the intersection of the morality of

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warfare and the stoic outlook on, you know, moral virtue.

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And so that's that's kind of what the book's about.

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That's really cool.

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I can see how it would pertain to being in the submarine and kind of that isolation and

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trying to work through all those emotions.

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Yeah, and just just how unhelpful emotions can be in that situation.

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But it's you know, it's not about suppressing emotions.

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It's about just having the right ones.

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Yes, so from what I know about stoicism and I know that some people misunderstand it and

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kind of perceive it as emotionless.

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How do you explain the difference between suppression and discipline?

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Yeah, well, so that's tough.

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I and I like to push back a little bit about the whole people say, you know, we would

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never suppress our emotions.

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No, no, no.

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Like we got to be in touch with our emotions.

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Men should be really excited to cry and, you know, hug and stuff.

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And I'm like, well, you know, maybe not all the time.

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If I'm I'm, you know, yeah, yeah.

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If I'm given orders on the con of a submarine and, you know, something frustrates me or

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something.

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You know upsets me or something like that.

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It's not a good time to start crying You know, is that suppressing my emotions to like

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maybe maybe I deal with that a different time So, so anyway the the underlying idea the

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the the basic idea of stoicism that as pertains to emotions is recognizing an underlying

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judgment, uh, and And this is a very old idea and you know, it's not 100 percent

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Perfect.

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you know, lot of psychologists today will say like, well, we know that emotions are more

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complex than a specific judgment call, you know, like, okay, Roger that, you know, but the

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ancient philosophy and the way that the ancient philosophers looked at this thing has a

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lot of utility and a lot of applicability and approaching the way that we have an emotion

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and the path of reasoning that got us there or non reasoning, the path of reasoning that

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can potentially

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Help us deal with it appropriately.

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So the basic idea that the stoics had 2000 years ago is that an emotion, whatever it is,

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represents some sort of judgment call some, know, I receive an impression that something

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has happened to me.

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You know, someone said an insulting thing about me in a meeting, you know, and try to make

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me look bad in front of the boss, you know, ah and I'm upset about that.

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Well, the

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The underlying judgment is that I've been harmed in some way.

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And if I analyze that, I realize I have not been harmed in any way.

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There was just noises, just air coming out of this guy's mouth and didn't harm me in any

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way.

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okay, so maybe the boss does think more poorly of me.

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Okay, why do I care about that?

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What is the underlying cause of my concern about what the boss thinks about me?

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And the core concept of stoicism, the keystone that it all turns upon, is the idea that

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virtue is what is good.

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Virtue is what matters.

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And if it's not virtue, then it's ultimately irrelevant.

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And lots of things get swept up into that irrelevant, or what they would call

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indifference.

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That includes things like wealth and status.

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including what my boss thinks of me, my rank, my uniform, these things are costumes, these

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things are not really me.

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And they can be taken away at any moment by powers external to me.

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And if it's not something that is subject to my own choice, my own will, then it's

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ultimately irrelevant.

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It doesn't reflect on my virtue.

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And it is irrelevant explicitly because it does not express my virtue.

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That's why the...

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the connection to virtue is there to these ideas of how I should interpret impressions and

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what emotions I should assent to and which emotions I should recognize are basically the

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expressions of some falsehood or some false belief.

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But that's the underlying idea.

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Yeah, and I think it's really cool the way you explained it relating it back to virtue

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actually made a few things in my head clear up about it because it's like, like I said

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before we started recording that I've I'm familiar with the term and I've somebody a

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couple of guests have brought up the word before but I've never it's never been explained

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in that way.

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Yeah, and you know, one of the things I have to be careful about, this is a, you know,

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it's a popular movement right now.

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If you type in Stoicism, it's going to blow up.

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It's all over the blogosphere and all this stuff.

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It's very easy to be a snob about it, you know, especially when you know, when you know

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something about something, you've studied it for a long time.

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It's very easy to say, you know, well, these people, they're misrepresenting the ideas.

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They're not, they're cheapening it or whatever.

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And I, you know, I really try not to do that.

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cause it's, it's really like, it's like week two of clicking around stoic blogs that you

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get your card in the mail that allows you to judge everyone else and say that they're,

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they're misinterpreting it.

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If you really read the stoics like I do, you would see that they agree with me about

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everything, you know, and, know, that's not really my game.

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You know, my, you know, my, my thing is to say like, okay, well, this is what they said.

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You know, these people lived before electricity, so they were probably wrong about some

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stuff, but what do you think?

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That's the important thing at the end of the day.

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That's.

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And that's how philosophy works.

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You know, it's not religion.

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It's not going and adopting this idea, you know, or this set of ideas because somebody

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said it like these people, they're not prophets, you know, they're not magical, they're

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not holy, they're just dudes.

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know, they're feeling around in the dark trying to figure things out.

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But the ideas that come to us today, we still talk about them because they cut to the core

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of what it means to be a human.

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Yeah.

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it's the same reason we still study Shakespeare in high school is because the things that

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he's writing about, you know, cut through time and are, you know, irrespective of an era.

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And ah it's the same reason that people say that like, classic rock is so much better than

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the music on the radio today.

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And well, there was a lot of crappy music being put out back then, too.

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We just don't listen to it anymore.

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Same idea.

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And my thought is if it's something that we're still talking about and it happened 2,000

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years ago, obviously they were doing something that worked.

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Yeah.

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you know, that, I mean, this, that kind of cuts like way over to the adjacency to mental

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health.

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One of the things that I think is very fascinating and is kind of undersold in a lot of

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the popular Stoicism discussion is the interplay of Stoic philosophy, not just philosophy

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writ large, but Stoic philosophy specifically and the development of certain therapeutic

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techniques, specifically cognitive behavioral therapy.

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and rational emotive behavioral therapy.

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I am not a psychologist.

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You know, I'm a submarine guy, but you know, what I, what I have read into this, is that

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the, basically the guys that developed those therapies that are basically considered the

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gold standard of, uh, psychotherapy today were deeply read in the Stoics and they

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specifically adapted a lot of, what were just mental practices that the Stoics, you know,

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Just believed you should think about things.

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So what what are many of what are today modern interventions or therapies are you know, or

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techniques that psychologists will teach you are kind of refinements of the way stoics

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just thought about stuff or tried to think about stuff or try to teach one another to

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think about stuff and It's not to say that You know stoic philosophy is a replacement for

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therapy.

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It certainly isn't but

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One of the key goals of therapy is to teach you techniques that you can take with you such

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that you don't depend on a therapist to help you out, teach you techniques to self-manage

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and to reason through things.

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And these were the techniques that the Stokes were working with, are there adaptations of

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it that the Stokes were working with thousands of years ago.

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So it's more like a natural cure.

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It's kind of like,

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humans discovered that you could chew on the bark of a willow tree and it would cure a

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headache.

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They had no idea why.

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I don't know how many different trees they chewed the bark of to figure that out, but they

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figured it out long before we figured out that the active ingredient is salicylic acid,

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which can be synthesized into aspirin.

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That was discovered relatively recently.

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And so that's kind of, I think that's a good analogy.

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We also understood winemaking long before we had any idea what was happening with

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fermentation or anyone discovered a microscope.

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just knew, you know, this makes wine if you do this with juice.

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you know, I, so I think that that's a key component of, really, think that's a key

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component of why stosis is exploding in popularity right now, because you have a mental

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health crisis in this country.

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And then you've got kind of an environment that's really,

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corrosive to mental health ah that people are like looking for adaptations and it's one of

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them that kind of works.

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Yeah, I agree.

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But you basically stole the words out of my mouth.

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was like, some of the stuff that you mentioned, like, who goes and tries to chew on

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different bark of a tree to see if it helps with the headache?

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Like, who does some of this stuff?

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I was talking, you just, yeah.

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It's funny that you mentioned something like that, because I was like,

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I can't remember, it just reminded me of a conversation I had recently with my wife.

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And I can't even remember what it was about, but it was kind of the same concept.

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was like, who thought of this?

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Like, who actually sat down and tried this to see if it worked?

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Yeah, somebody did.

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God bless that person for chewing on the bark of different trees and figuring it out.

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out and helping the rest of us out.

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So I'm going to kind of change the direction here a little bit.

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What are some of the unique mental health challenges of operating inside a nuclear

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submarine for months at a time?

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So it's not Surprisingly, it's not claustrophobia is not the thing that gets gets most

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people it's usually just the stress of Just the the workload honestly, I get asked a lot

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of like hey Do you have people like lose it they get under underwater and they realize

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that they're they're claustrophobic and you know It's usually not that You do have the

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occasional person that doesn't adapt and

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you work with people and whenever you're ashore, you get them to therapy.

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And if you don't find things like that ah before you get to see and you get to see and

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then somebody is unable to adapt emotionally to the environment, then ah basically you

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separate them from responsibilities that you make sure that they can't harm themselves or

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others.

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And you find a way to get them off the ship whenever an opportunity presents itself.

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It doesn't happen that often, that dramatically.

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More often the becomes the case, like the workload is very hard whenever you're in port as

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well.

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And so if someone's not going to make it, that often is figured out before the ship goes

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to sea.

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And that's what you want.

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But the...

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The reality is like a lot of people think they're not going to make it.

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And then they discover they're capable of a lot more than they thought they were.

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And that's actually a beautiful sight to see is uh people realizing that they were capable

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of more than they thought they would be.

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But as to the specific challenges, what you actually asked there, it's the stress, it's

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the workload, it's the pressure of, I've got to learn all this stuff and do all this work.

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And I'm responsible for all these other people.

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Everyone is depending on everybody.

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Everyone's looking at me to know, you know, everyone's expecting me to know what to do no

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matter the emergency, because everyone's got to know what to do.

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And if people don't know what to do, that's catastrophic.

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You know, and so that level of stress just is what wears a lot of people down.

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You don't have a lot of time to think about, know, geez, I'd like to go outside and those

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things.

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uh

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But if you ruminate on that, that can absolutely drive you up a wall, because you're not

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going outside.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And that's part that I'd have a hard time with, the not being able to go outside.

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Yeah, and I tell you that's that's somewhere where a stoicism, you know, really applies or

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really really has for me.

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Whenever the ship first submerges, whenever you first go to see, it's typically an

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officer.

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It's typically a junior officer that what you is there is like the last one to shut the

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hatch.

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But and to verify all the valves are in the right position.

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It's just kind of part of the procedure that you have.

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You have a junior officer do that usually.

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And uh when that last like sliver of sunlight disappears, you're like, I'm not going to

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feel that sunlight on my skin for like a couple of months, maybe.

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And now you're down below and you're in a machine and you're like, okay, I'm in this

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machine.

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This is where I am.

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And I am not going outside.

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That, mean, that is a major suspension of control, you know, and you.

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If you ruminate on that, you can very quickly find yourself adrift in someone else's plan

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and feel like you're imprisoned or something like that.

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But within the fact that I am here, I've got a job to do.

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And within that, that is what I must do.

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I must do my job.

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And that becomes a very excellent focal point.

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And my job is really like 100 jobs.

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It's all the stuff I've got to learn.

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It's the people I'm responsible for.

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It's the...

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The maintenance I've got to perform, you know, the planning I've got to do the training

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I've got to do it.

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It's, you the watch I've got to stand.

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It's tons and tons of stuff.

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And that overwhelms some people.

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But if you focus on the work, that helps you get through it.

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and that is what has worked for me.

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and you know, there's, there's pieces of that that are, that are kind of screwed up.

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Like I find that, and this is just me, this is not everybody, but you know, I.

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I find that I'm better off if I'm not looking at pictures of my family all the time,

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because it makes me sad.

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Instead, just kind of like, and this is just, I don't recommend this to anybody.

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This is just my own personal thing, but if I focus on the job, then I'm busy and then I

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don't have time to ruminate on all these things that are probably gonna make me very sad

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if I think about it for too long.

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So, but that's an example.

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think the hardest thing for me personally is not knowing that my family's okay.

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know?

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Because once you're underwater, you very quickly, as soon as the ship's into a situation

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where you're doing anything interesting, you shut off communications.

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And that's, you if you're gonna send a ship to sea, a submarine to sea, you're probably

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doing it for a reason and you're probably gonna lose communications very quickly.

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And at that point,

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you go for a long period of time without receiving or sending any kind of email, you know,

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any kind of update on the family.

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And, in that case, I'm just, I just kind of have to have to have faith that they'll be all

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right.

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And, uh, and, and, know, as soon as we come back in comms, I want to know, you know, the

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first thing I want to know is like, Hey honey, are you all right?

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Are the kids all right?

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That's all I care about.

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Okay.

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You know, after that, like, I don't care.

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House burned down, whatever, you know, you're all right.

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The kids are right.

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Okay.

21:46

Good.

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You know, that's what I want to know.

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And so far, you know, everything's been okay.

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We have the house has not burned down.

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Well, that's good.

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I can only imagine cutting off that communication.

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Does that cause a lot of isolation and does that add on to the stress that you deal with?

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you know, there are a couple of ironies there and a couple of idiosyncrasies you might not

22:11

think about.

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One of the things is that whenever you cut off the communications, the email doesn't

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necessarily come in in the order that it was sent because it piles up in this buffer

22:26

somewhere.

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And so sometimes like the most recently sent is what you get first.

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so, you know, back when I was a weapons officer, you know, I found out that we were that

22:30

we were going to have a boy.

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before I found out that we were pregnant.

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It's like, hey, what do know?

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It's gonna be a boy.

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I hope it's mine.

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yeah, it is mine, all right.

22:45

There was never any doubt there, but it's a funny joke.

22:47

uh The other thing though, that some of the ironies are some of the stressors of everyday

22:47

life that disappear and that I personally don't miss, such as social media.

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and the news cycle.

23:04

And whenever you find out that you can live without constantly checking Instagram or

23:04

whatever your addiction is today, it's going to change every couple of years.

23:16

there's always going to be some newer, more addictive doom scrolling service.

23:21

the fact that you can live without it, you suddenly are like, wait, I have to interact

23:21

with

23:25

these people that are near me and, you know, I guess we're going to have to play cards to

23:25

entertain ourselves like normal people.

23:33

And I find that that is a very kind of, you know, forced detox from a lot of the mental

23:33

health stressors that are out there.

23:45

yeah, for sure.

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it's, think getting rid of social media or not being on it for days at a time could help

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all of us out.

23:51

Absolutely, and we all know it It's not it.

23:55

mean, it's like cigarettes like we know it's bad for us.

23:58

We just do it Because we like it, you know

24:00

completely guilty.

24:01

It's like my wife will be like, put down your phone like you're gonna have the kids down.

24:06

I'm trying to do better.

24:07

It's like we all know we have a uh phone addiction problem, but how many of us are

24:07

actually willing to put it down step away for a few hours a night?

24:19

You got to fight the good fight, man.

24:20

It's like whatever you can do, the little, little things.

24:22

It's, it's a never ending battle.

24:24

It's like the same battle with junk food.

24:25

Like, you know, you can't just give up.

24:29

You got to just, you got to do whatever you can do to fight the good fight, but, it's

24:29

better for you.

24:34

promise.

24:35

I promise Reddit, reddit or Tik TOK or whatever the, whatever the addiction is, it's going

24:35

to be there tomorrow.

24:41

It'll be all right.

24:42

Yeah, my biggest problem is probably Instagram and looking up music.

24:47

Yeah, I haven't figured it.

24:49

I haven't like learned how to to why Instagram is fun yet.

24:53

I guess I'm old, you know, the but I you know, promoting a book you're supposed to get in

24:53

all this social media stuff and I'm like, I don't I feel like an old man.

25:03

I'm like, I don't why why are the kids like this?

25:05

I don't know, you know, but

25:07

still trying to figure it out, trying to promote the podcast.

25:11

There's times where it's like, do really well and um very consistent at posting and then

25:11

there's times where you won't see me for like a month.

25:18

it's like, you can tell clearly when I've given up a little bit.

25:23

And mean, who knows what's gonna resonate with people?

25:30

Mine is Reddit.

25:32

Reddit is such an addiction and it's totally addiction.

25:36

I try to rationalize it like, oh, I need to go in here to see what people are saying about

25:36

like, no, I don't.

25:42

What are you talking about?

25:44

Life's gonna go read a book.

25:47

I could write a book, but I can't read one anymore.

25:49

I don't have the attention span.

25:51

Yeah, it's...

25:52

I'm trying to dive back into reading books.

25:56

Yeah, I went where I'm finding success there and we're so far off of our topic.

26:01

It's great.

26:03

Where I find success there now is treating reading for pleasure, not like a pleasure, but

26:03

treating it like working out.

26:10

Like I've got to do this.

26:12

You know, I've got to I've got to read X chapters a week.

26:14

And if I don't, I'm going to have to read more chapters the next week to make up for, my

26:14

laziness.

26:19

And that's the same approach to working out.

26:21

Like I really don't want to work out today, but if I don't, I'm to have to pay for it

26:21

later.

26:25

So and like that's just that's just how I do it and and you know some like so instead of

26:25

reading for pleasure It's like I'm reading for you know macho, you know, I need to do this

26:35

to prove that I can and that that's working for me now, you know But uh, maybe I maybe I

26:35

just hate this book Yeah, yeah anyway

26:47

So how do you, are there any methods that you use to personally manage your stress?

26:53

I mean, well, aside from staying busy, there's working out.

26:57

if I don't work out four times a week, I'll start to feel, I'll just be upset and be

26:57

basically frustrated with myself about that.

27:08

I find finding excuses to interact with other people goes a really long way.

27:14

And so kind of the tradition in a submarine,

27:17

you know, in the wardroom, which is where the officers hang out, is to play, play a card

27:17

game.

27:22

know, cribbage is the game and it's a, it's a stupid game.

27:26

You know, don't, don't tell any other submariners I said that, but it, but it's a, it's a

27:26

ridiculous game, but it's a, it's a, this like really serious submarine tradition that,

27:35

that submariners are just really into cribbage.

27:38

And you know what I'm like, okay, fine.

27:40

We'll, play cribbage.

27:41

But what it is is an excuse to sit around and BS and just talk about something that isn't

27:41

worth.

27:46

You know, and whenever you're just overwhelmed with work all the time, there's always more

27:46

work to do than you feel like you've got time to do it.

27:55

And so if you lie to yourself, that's just going to consume you.

27:57

That's all you will ever think about all you'll ever talk about.

28:00

And so if you say like, no, no, we're playing cribbage right now.

28:03

We're playing cribbage.

28:03

Sit down.

28:04

You know, then, then it just kind of forces, it forces people to relax a little bit and

28:04

you can interact and get to people a bit and say, you know, Hey, when was the last time

28:13

you heard from the wife and the kids, you know, what's going on?

28:15

And,

28:16

The having interactions just normal interactions and treating one another normally As just

28:16

really goes a long way I find even if you don't talk about those things that are that are

28:28

stressing stressing you just talking period and Socializing with another human being

28:28

Face-to-face is really important there.

28:36

I think I think it really helps out and just that kind of corrosive environment if you

28:36

just kind of

28:42

push all that away and just say, we're actually just humans here.

28:45

You know, we just happen to be in this place.

28:49

Yeah, I think that's important though with like any team that you're on and it's if you

28:49

don't build those relationships like that, like I don't feel like your team can

28:57

necessarily always be a team.

29:00

Yeah.

29:01

Yeah.

29:01

And I mean, it's all about the team.

29:03

the entire, everything you do is a function of the team.

29:09

doesn't matter how good you are as an individual.

29:12

It's not going to matter a little bit.

29:14

Yeah.

29:16

So how do you bounce a strict discipline with empathy when leading high performance teams?

29:24

well.

29:27

The key is that that has worked for me and different leaders are gonna find different

29:27

things work for them better, but is embracing, it's kind of uh a thing of our culture.

29:40

It's a part of our culture that we were always focusing on what's wrong and like what we

29:40

did wrong.

29:45

we really just, not into hugging and saying like, well, here's all the things that went

29:45

right, that last watch.

29:52

Like, no, that's a waste of time.

29:53

We're gonna focus on what you screwed up.

29:56

screwed up and we're gonna flog ourselves and I'm gonna flog me and I'm gonna flog you and

29:56

we're all gonna flog each other and that's just how that's how submariners approach

30:05

approach anything because you got to be constantly improving you know and and whether it's

30:05

you know the formality and the proceduralism with which I stood a watch or it's how I

30:14

maintained this particular piece of reactor instrumentation or whatever we're always gonna

30:14

investigate and find everything that went wrong I think

30:22

Embracing that and talking to the crew a lot about why we do it that way and recognizing

30:22

That we're gonna screw stuff up and I'm not saying it's okay.

30:34

I'm saying it's expected that These things are gonna happen and how we how we deal with

30:34

them when they do is part of our Evaluation our self evaluation.

30:47

So how we handle that, you know

30:50

feeling of failure and not wallowing in it, but instead of isolating what failed, what I

30:50

did wrong, what do I have to correct and how I'm gonna correct it dispassionately and

31:01

learning to take pride in my ability to do that and in one another's ability to do that.

31:07

what Nirvana is, is whenever you've got a team where I can say, hey Jim, that really

31:07

sucked when you did that.

31:14

You know, misidentified that sonar trace as a biologic when in fact it was a merchant

31:14

ship.

31:20

You know, that sucked.

31:21

And Jim can say like, yep, that sucked.

31:24

Here's why I did that.

31:25

And here's how I'm to do it in the future differently.

31:28

I'm like, Roger that.

31:28

Excellent.

31:29

Awesome.

31:29

Okay.

31:30

Moving forward.

31:31

And like, we're not mad at each other.

31:32

we're not, know, Jim's not flogging himself crying in his beer.

31:36

You know, he's moving on with life and he's correcting and getting better.

31:42

learning how to embrace that self-correcting culture and develop that self-correcting

31:42

culture and be happy that you have it because you recognize how vital it is for your life.

31:56

being able to embrace that about yourself and about your culture and just kind of

31:56

recognizing that it takes tough guys to be so uh self-critical and

32:05

being proud of that toughness.

32:07

I think that has been very effective for the teams that I've been on in the past.

32:12

that's something I learned from leaders I've admired in the past as well.

32:17

That's really cool.

32:19

I like that kind of mindset mentality that you talked about there.

32:27

Can you think of any mistakes maybe you or your crew have made that have helped shape your

32:27

philosophy today?

32:37

jeez, which thousand mistakes that I've made.

32:39

ah The things that I have most regretted have been anything where I didn't do right by a

32:39

person, anything where I can look at and say that was manifestly unjust what I did in that

32:57

situation.

32:58

And such things have happened.

32:59

mean, those things do happen.

33:01

And I can wallow in them forever.

33:03

And that would be no good.

33:04

isolate them and say like, that was unjust.

33:07

I should not have treated that person like that.

33:09

I'm going to correct that and I'm never going to do that again.

33:11

And it can be something as simple as brushing by a guy whenever he's, you know, sweeping

33:11

and not being courteous enough to say, excuse me, you know, cause I'm, really important

33:22

and I'm, I'm in a hurry and really it's because I'm not thinking about it.

33:26

I've got something important on my mind.

33:29

I'm not thinking about saying, excuse me.

33:31

But from his perspective, that's just me being very inconsiderate.

33:33

And from his perspective, that might ruin his day, especially if there's a big rank

33:33

differential.

33:38

I'm several ranks above that guy.

33:40

he might draw all kinds of conclusions from that interaction or what he perceived as an

33:40

interaction when I just perceived it as me moving from point A to point B.

33:50

recognizing all the things.

33:52

All the conclusions he might draw from that and that might ruin his day, you know, that

33:52

might ruin his week He might in his following watch, you know not make a recommendation An

34:03

important recommendation that would save the ship because he's pouting, you know, or

34:03

frustrated or any combination thereof So those are the things that I can most consider

34:14

mistakes and I haven't made tactical and technical mistakes all kinds

34:20

You know and you know whenever you move from making ten important decisions a day to a

34:20

hundred important decisions a day To a thousand important decisions a day.

34:28

You're gonna make more mistakes That's part of the deal and and and you got a you got to

34:28

be able to deal with that But the the mistakes that I most regret are any kind of

34:39

injustices and recognizing that that's the kind of thing that that most Leaves me with

34:39

regret helps me

34:45

to shape my priorities going forward, because I don't want to live with regret.

34:50

So I think that gets to your question of what mistakes have shaped my philosophy.

34:57

That definitely plays into it.

35:01

Yeah, it's, and those are like tough ones, like anything done with people.

35:05

it's like, I think maybe think back of like, you know, maybe those times at work, like I

35:05

came off a little standoffish or maybe it was rude to a coworker.

35:16

Those are the things in my mind that stick out to me as well.

35:20

So it's like, I can totally relate to you on that.

35:24

that, you know, just because I didn't mean to be rude doesn't mean it wasn't rude.

35:27

You know, when you can, you can say all you want, like, well, they shouldn't be so

35:27

sensitive.

35:32

Yeah.

35:33

Well, they are.

35:34

And you got to deal with people as, as they really are rather than how you wish they were.

35:38

you're not, you're, know, maybe he is over sensitive.

35:41

well, he's your guy and you got to deal with that.

35:44

Don't be rude.

35:46

So submarines run on systems or teams and trust.

35:50

How do you keep teams aligned and performing at a world class level?

35:56

Well, I've covered a lot of it with the culture, know, this self-correcting, you know,

35:56

just kind of neurotically self-correcting culture.

36:04

Very rigid proceduralism, but that's only possible whenever you're resourced with, you

36:04

know, good procedures and good systems.

36:12

And so that's kind of a luxury of the Submarine Force specifically, that we can be so

36:12

rigidly procedural.

36:21

in our culture, but that drives a lot of things and how we operate as a team and how we

36:21

operate within a machine that's extremely complex.

36:32

If anything's not working like it's supposed to be, we adjudicate that formally.

36:37

We don't tolerate having some machine that the light only comes on whenever you kick it a

36:37

couple of times.

36:44

This light doesn't really come on when it's supposed to, but...

36:47

I know that and so I'm just going to operate by memory and turn this valve as if the light

36:47

were on just because I know it's supposed to come up like, no, no, we don't do that.

36:55

If we write special procedures, whenever those kind of, we try to fix all that stuff as

36:55

fast as we can, but you're going to have material conditions that deviate from design.

37:06

And whenever that happens, you make a new design and you adjudicate it formally and all

37:06

those kinds of things.

37:11

So that's really relevant, I think, to...

37:14

how we operate in that kind unforgiving environment.

37:18

But then the other thing is really, really leaning in to learn and teach and knowledge of

37:18

the system and knowledge of the environment.

37:25

On a submarine, knowledge is power.

37:27

And aggressively so to the point that rank is almost, uh it's a formality.

37:37

It matters and we're going to obey naval protocols and all those kinds of things.

37:42

you know, someone who comes on board and starts throwing their rank around, but they don't

37:42

know anything about the ship.

37:46

They're going to very quickly find that no one's going to pay much heed to what they think

37:46

as compared to someone who understands the ship and understands the systems.

37:56

And so we have all these different systems in play of qualification where you're

37:56

constantly studying and constantly learning the ship.

38:02

From the moment you're the junior sailor, you know, or a junior officer, you've got a

38:02

different binder full of stuff to memorize.

38:09

but you're going to memorize it, you know, and you're going to learn it fast and being

38:09

able to, you know, follow hand over hand and follow the pipes and the systems and the

38:18

wires and the cables and the hydraulics and understanding how to isolate this and, you

38:18

know, actuate that to, you know, combat a casualty or an emergency or something like that,

38:28

fight a fire.

38:29

Everyone needs to know what to do.

38:31

And being one of those people that knows what to do confers a lot of status.

38:37

And having that baked into the culture is super important.

38:42

And I think is key to the learn and teach piece because you're going to find a lot of

38:42

satisfaction, a lot of professional satisfaction once you know enough to teach.

38:56

And the best way to learn is to teach.

38:59

And so you have all these different self-reinforcing functions within the culture.

39:04

So I hope that answers it.

39:06

that's a really good answer.

39:08

I love it.

39:08

It's, there's, I think so much that like, people can take in from there.

39:13

And it's especially when it comes to like running a team and that type of thing.

39:17

it's, so thank you.

39:19

So I'm going to jump back kind of to your book here.

39:22

What does being a warrior philosopher mean to you in practical everyday leadership?

39:29

So there's several like, contingent pieces of that question.

39:34

So what is a warrior?

39:36

What is a philosopher?

39:37

And it's how I use these terms, all right.

39:39

So I specifically, when I say warrior in my writing, I mean a member of the profession of

39:39

arms.

39:46

I mean somebody whose business is war.

39:48

You know, that means people in the military and it does not mean people not in the

39:48

military.

39:52

And like, I don't dispute anyone else using the word differently, that's just how I use in

39:56

And whenever I use the word philosopher in that instance, I mean somebody who is deeply

39:56

philosophical I do not mean necessarily mean someone with a PhD, you know, I do not have a

40:06

PhD I haven't had the opportunity.

40:10

I've got lots of other training But just not that but I I held myself to write on

40:10

philosophy anyway And you know, I think I'd do a good job of writing to an academic

40:20

standard

40:21

But that's not necessarily what I mean when I talk about a warrior philosopher.

40:25

A warrior philosopher in my mind is somebody who is a deeply philosophical and deep

40:25

thinking warrior, or someone who aspires to be.

40:31

don't think that there's any, it's an internal status or an internal identity.

40:37

It's not something that, no one's gonna give you a badge that says, okay, well now you're

40:37

a qualified warrior philosopher.

40:44

No, it's not how it works.

40:47

It's a lifelong project.

40:49

Which that's what philosophy is is is is the love of wisdom and pursuit of the pursuit of

40:49

wisdom and reason I think that You know there is a lot to understand there when it comes

41:02

to the morality of the job and the the weight of responsibility That plays into it and

41:02

there are you know, not everyone thinks this way, you know, not everyone in the military

41:14

is deeply philosophical, but a lot more are than you might think.

41:20

so that's kind of the audience for my book is people in the military who are deeply

41:20

philosophical, who want to think about their place in the moral construct and their

41:34

responsibilities within it and how those things interact with one another, if that helps.

41:42

Yeah, for sure.

41:44

Yeah.

41:44

So, so, you know, and, and I have to emphasize like it is a never ending project.

41:51

I don't go around, you know, touting myself as a philosopher.

41:55

You know, I'm a ship driver.

41:56

just, I just, I'm just, you know, cosplaying over here as a philosopher writing, you know,

41:56

writing books, you know, whenever, whenever I should be studying other stuff, probably.

42:06

But, uh, these, these topics are deeply, deeply interesting and compelling to me.

42:10

You know, which is which is why why I explore them and you know, I hope in a way that I

42:10

hope hope will be helpful helpful to others, you know, and I I also had to emphasize like

42:21

the book that I wrote is not it's not for everyone You know is not is not written to be a

42:21

popular book.

42:27

You know, it's kind of it's kind of heavy And it's written for a very niche audience and

42:27

you know, there's no excuse for it to be published Because it's like a niche audience

42:35

within a niche audience, you know, it's

42:38

You know, just huge philosophy nerds that happen to be in the military, you know, which,

42:38

know, you've probably got one or two listeners that fall into that category.

42:45

But, but yeah, I bet it's more than that.

42:49

I still love that you've liked to write and you actually found the time with, you know,

42:49

your busy schedule and being a father and all that fun stuff to actually get a book out

43:00

there.

43:01

It's very, the writing process is inherently purposeful.

43:05

And I think that that is a really important thing for mental health practices.

43:10

Journaling, just the act of journaling is something that any psychotherapist will advise

43:10

you to do.

43:16

And there's very good reason for it.

43:17

You know, people figured this out thousands of years ago too.

43:20

You whenever you read Marcus Aurelius, that's his journals as he's in.

43:25

Those are actual mental exercises that are prescribed, you know, by the stoics that, uh,

43:25

that he was, he was supposed to be performing, as he's sorting out his own, you know,

43:36

mental travails.

43:37

So the writing, the process of writing down what you're thinking about, even if it's just

43:37

saying, this is what I did today, you know, but the process of writing those things forces

43:45

you to engage with your thoughts.

43:47

And to articulate them and often you don't really know what you're thinking until you go

43:47

to write it down and you can't really distinguish between you.

43:55

You might think you're thinking thoughts and really it's just a jumble of feelings until

43:55

you go try to write it down and, I try it, you know, and you know, listeners, I advise

44:02

you, know, try it, go, you know, take, take that big jumble of feelings you got that you

44:02

think are all these really deep thoughts, go write them down and see how deep they really

44:09

are.

44:10

You know, but I promise you, you will learn some.

44:12

You know, and aside from just being frustrated at how challenging it is, you will, you

44:12

will discover the reasons that you think certain things or your you'll discover things

44:23

that you think that you didn't necessarily realize consciously that you think and that

44:23

that's why you journal.

44:28

And I think that that is a very valuable process and you know, writing a book is just

44:28

something that it's not something I was born able to do.

44:37

It comes after years of doing others, other kinds of writing and, and a lot of

44:41

a lot of practice at other things.

44:43

But it's just kind of a more refined version of that, still engaging the same thinking

44:43

processes, I think.

44:52

Yeah, I have not gotten huge into journaling, but every once in a while I will pull out a

44:52

piece of paper and just start writing stuff down just to clear my head a little bit.

45:05

Yeah, I recommend give it a try to have a routine.

45:09

Just say, I'm going do this for a week.

45:10

See what happens.

45:11

Give it a shot.

45:12

because it's like every time I write something down I was like, like, I didn't know that

45:12

that's actually what I was thinking because it's like what you said is sometimes it's just

45:21

jumbled feelings.

45:23

Yeah.

45:24

And like you don't need a fancy like leather bound journal.

45:29

just need a notebook and like you don't have to do anything with it.

45:31

You just throw it away.

45:32

You're not writing this for anyone else.

45:35

And I promise you don't want to.

45:37

No one wants to read your journals and you don't want anyone to read your journals.

45:41

That's for you.

45:41

And it's the process.

45:43

It's the exercise of writing.

45:44

That's where the value is.

45:45

It's not the...

45:50

Just a kind of a few more questions here.

45:53

You've answered basically most of what I was going to ask.

45:55

So what lessons from submarine life and stoicism are you most intentionally or most

45:55

intentional about passing on to your children?

46:08

Well, I think they're reinforced by the submarine life, but they really are central to

46:08

Stoicism.

46:15

It's what is a good person.

46:16

Okay.

46:17

One of the key ideas within Stoicism, you know, we say virtue is the sole good in

46:17

according to the Stoics.

46:24

Well, what is virtue?

46:25

Well, the, is like you can do a whole other.

46:30

series of podcasts on this.

46:32

What is virtue?

46:33

It's the quality of being a good human, you know, and the discrete virtues are, you know,

46:33

any kind of good quality a person has.

46:41

Well, there are these ideas, there's basically four that are considered the cardinal

46:41

virtues, and they are actually the Stoics inherited this idea from Plato.

46:51

As did a lot of other philosophical schools and later religions did.

46:55

You'll see that the cardinal virtues are deeply embedded in many world religions today.

47:02

They are wisdom, courage, self-control, and justice.

47:07

And the idea behind those cardinal virtues, so to speak, is that the qualities of a good

47:07

person don't reduce any further than that.

47:15

They work like the primary colors of red, yellow, and blue.

47:19

where any other quality of a person that's good is going to be some derivative or mixture

47:19

combination of those four qualities.

47:29

they basically, I think that we really haven't been able to improve on that construct in

47:29

describing what a good person is, although we certainly have tried.

47:39

And so that is something that I emphasize to my kids.

47:42

I write a ton about stoicism and

47:45

You people say, well, do you teach your kids about stoicism?

47:48

Like, well, I don't necessarily, you know, they don't need to know who Epictetus is or who

47:48

Marcus Aurelius is that they'll learn that later.

47:55

You know, right now I'm like, all right, kids, Cardinal virtues go, you know, wisdom, you

47:55

know, justice.

48:01

Like, okay, what's that mean?

48:03

You know, treating people right.

48:04

You know, okay.

48:05

You know, and that I find, you know, no matter what you believe on a metaphysical level,

48:05

that's something you can't really.

48:12

deny or argue with and it's just something that's good that you can take with you.

48:17

The other piece, the kind of more advanced piece from that, that's the fundamental one.

48:22

If they take away that, then I've at least done some part of my job.

48:26

But beyond that is the idea that you are completely, you're responsible for your actions

48:26

no matter what.

48:34

That's deeply embedded in stoicism is that nobody can force you to do anything.

48:40

You know, ah if you, even if it, anything that you do is a choice, you know, how you

48:40

react, these emotions that you have, they're ultimately judgment calls and ah your choice

48:50

to ascent to that emotion, you know, or to ascent to that judgment that you've been harmed

48:50

whenever someone insulted you in a meeting or whatever stupid thing that's making you

48:59

emotional, you know, you're responsible for that.

49:01

Even if you can't stop yourself right now, you're no less responsible for that than you

49:01

are for shoving a donut in your face when you can't stop yourself from that.

49:10

You're responsible.

49:12

even if, I mean, from the Stoke point of view, it's extreme.

49:17

It's like my choice to live when a gun's pointed at my head and they say, do this terrible

49:17

thing, that's still a choice.

49:23

on some level, I'm still responsible for that.

49:25

Which again, that's extreme.

49:26

But recognizing that nobody can make you do anything is a very freeing, it's a freeing

49:26

sensation whenever you're, you the world seems to be crashing down around you and, know,

49:37

lots of people believe lots of stupid things.

49:39

There's all kinds of bad politics and bad, you know, bad energy out there and bad ideas.

49:44

And how could people think this?

49:46

I want to get on so upset about this.

49:48

Well, they can't make me like that They can't no no way can make me think these terrible

49:48

things.

49:54

I am who I am and I'm gonna be that no matter what and So whenever my kids are, know

49:54

fighting each other or something like that and then one of them yells like hey, know Eric

50:03

made me hit him or whatever and then the other kids like no one could make you do anything

50:03

I'm just like yes winning so

50:11

So that's kind of that's that's what I try to teach my kids and that's how the philosophy

50:11

informs them and then as far as any things that submarines has to do with that I think it

50:19

just reinforces all those like that's an environment where recognizing, you know

50:19

self-control and You know teamwork moral virtue the interplay of all those things and the

50:30

interaction of all those ideas the coherency between them is just extremely important to

50:30

the to the overall system

50:37

I love it.

50:37

And don't you just love those moments though where your kid says something and you're

50:37

like, I'm getting through to them.

50:44

Yeah.

50:46

Wait, you you listen to me?

50:48

Wow.

50:49

You know?

50:52

Yeah.

50:55

So kind of one generalized question here and then a couple of follow-ups.

51:01

What do you feel is the biggest stigma when it comes to mental health?

51:07

I think, you know, I can speak from my own experience as a, you know, most recently as an

51:07

executive officer of a ship, trying to, trying to run a ship, trying to keep the crew

51:15

healthy, but trying to keep the crew whole.

51:17

There's a lot of stigma attached with if I'm going to seek treatment, that's going to

51:17

remove me from the team.

51:25

And I don't want that.

51:26

And I think that, that, you know, there's, there's truth to it.

51:31

And, and there, but there's a lot of danger in that too.

51:34

And it's a very, very tough problem.

51:36

Okay.

51:37

Because, people don't want to seek treatment if they need it often, because they don't

51:37

want to be viewed as trying to get out of work.

51:46

at the same time, you know, if, if a guy go slips off to treatment, you know, and, and,

51:46

you know, the mental health complex says that like, Hey, this guy can't go to see with you

51:57

anymore.

51:57

We lose that guy and we're probably not going to get a replacement for another six months.

52:02

That's going to hurt.

52:03

You know, and other people are good, are going to have to pick up his workload.

52:07

It's not a myth, you know, it's going to suck.

52:10

And, and that's just a thing that you have to deal with, but, dealing with that does not

52:10

mean that you, you go and you say like, well, I, don't need treatment.

52:18

I'm, I, you know, I'm fine whenever you're not fine.

52:22

That's like driving on a, on a.

52:24

flat tire.

52:25

Like it's it's a it's a logical fallacy to think like, well, I'll go I'll go to mental

52:25

health treatment whenever it's convenient, you know, or whenever there's time like, well,

52:38

that's not really how this works.

52:40

If you're if you're not stable, and you're not safe, then then we need to get you checked

52:40

out and we will deal with that.

52:47

And I'm not saying it's not going to suck.

52:49

I'm just saying that

52:50

It's going to suck less than the alternative, which is to have someone not get treatment

52:50

that needs it.

52:55

so anyway, I think the fear of letting down the team is a massive stigma when it comes to

52:55

mental health.

53:06

Oh, I can see it, because someone that's been treated for mental health, it's almost the

53:06

fear of like, letting down anybody.

53:14

Just because, and you don't want to be known as that crazy person or, because it's like

53:14

you, it's almost like you get labeled by what you are going to therapy for.

53:29

Yeah, right?

53:31

If I could get through life without this thing, then perhaps I would like to.

53:35

That's another topic of itself though.

53:37

We have too many labels on things in society nowadays.

53:41

Yeah, yeah, no doubt.

53:43

I'm no good.

53:43

I'm no better a social commentator than I am a, you psychologist, but, but I don't

53:43

disagree.

53:52

So where can people find you?

53:55

ah So the book is Stoicism as a Warrior Philosophy.

54:00

It is available anywhere you get books, which, you know, for as weird of a book as it is,

54:00

I'm surprised about that, but I'm, I'm pleasantly surprised, know, it's, but I also have a

54:11

website, williamcspears.com, and, you know, I write other stuff, essays and, you articles

54:11

and stuff like that, mostly with relevance to military interests and stuff.

54:21

But that's a place where you can find me.

54:23

I'm also easily found on LinkedIn and I'm happy to have more connections there.

54:27

That's just kind of where in the social media space I'm most active.

54:31

I'm easily found there.

54:33

And last thing here is we covered a lot of topics.

54:37

Is there anything that we did not discuss that you would like to bring up?

54:42

One thing, well, I've got just kind of a signature idea that helps me a lot in sorting

54:42

things and it's a philosophical idea.

54:51

And that is the appeal to coherency and basically finding what ideas work together well is

54:51

a good test of the validity of a set of ideas.

55:01

Or the validity of some other idea that's out there and whether it.

55:05

It's compatible with the things you already believe or not is a excellent test for whether

55:05

it is a valid idea or not.

55:13

It was expressed really well by a guy named Cicero in the expression, that which is good

55:13

is, that which is honorable is useful.

55:24

And it comes from, he was basically playing off of Socrates.

55:28

Socrates like hundreds of years before Cicero,

55:31

doing the Socrates thing, walking around asking impossible questions, was exploring the

55:31

idea of what is good.

55:37

And his dialogue came around to the conclusion that what is good is that which is

55:37

honorable and useful.

55:44

Cicero built on that and said, well, if we really understand, then we know that that which

55:44

is honorable is useful.

55:51

And that which is useful is honorable.

55:53

It's not just honorable and useful.

55:55

If you are truly one, you are the other as well.

55:58

And that is an expression of coherency.

56:01

And I find that to be a very useful sorting mechanism for moral dilemmas and professional

56:01

dilemmas or whatever kind of dilemma is.

56:13

If it's not honorable, it may appear useful, but in the long run, it's not going to be.

56:18

it's going to have regret attached to it.

56:23

And I find that that helps me get through life and without regret.

56:28

So I'll leave the listeners with that.

56:32

I love it.

56:33

Well, William, thank you so much for spending an hour with me.

56:37

Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate being here man

56:40

And most importantly, thank you for your service and what you do for this country.

56:44

Yeah, thanks a lot, Travis.

56:46

Hey, one thing I do need to say, I'm supposed to say at the beginning, but I forgot.

56:49

Everything I do say here is just my own opinion.

56:52

You know, it's just me.

56:55

It's not an expression of the Navy or any element of the US government.

57:00

It's just me as a citizen here talking.

57:02

That's all.

57:05

Thanks again and thanks to all the listeners out there.

57:09

Please hit that subscribe button.

57:11

If I could speak it's Monday so you can find us on all major podcast platforms.

57:17

Thanks again.

57:18

Until next time.

57:19

thank you much.

57:20

Take care.