Why You Keep Repeating the Same Emotional Patterns | Ben Oofana

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Most of us don't realize we're

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repeating the same emotional

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patterns until they've

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already caused damage. My guest

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today,

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Ben Oofana, knows that experience

0:07

deeply.

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At just seventeen years old, Ben

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left Texas and began a very

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unconventional journey

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into traditional healing,

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meditation,

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martial arts, and eventually

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confronting his own trauma

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and the relationship patterns he

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kept repeating.

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In this conversation, we talk

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about why simply understanding

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your wounds.

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Isn't always enough why people

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often wait for a crises before

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doing

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the deeper work and what it

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actually takes to rebuild

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emotional resilience.

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One idea kept coming up

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throughout our conversation face

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your life.

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Face the emotions, face the

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patterns,

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face the things you would rather

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avoid.

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Because growth doesn't happen by

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pretending the pain isn't there.

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It happens when you finally

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decide to work through it.

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This is overcome.

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with Travis White. Please hit

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that follow button and leave us

1:02

a five star review.

1:08

Hi Ben. Why don't you go ahead

1:08

and start us off by telling us

1:11

about your journey?

1:13

Thanks, Travis. I'm happy to

1:13

join you here.

1:15

initially from an early age I

1:15

was drawn to Native Americans

1:20

and fascination continued to

1:20

grow through childhood.

1:24

At fourteen, when I began to

1:24

hear about the traditional

1:28

Native doctors

1:29

and the kinds of ritual

1:29

practices they

1:36

go through, vision quests,

1:36

sundance,

1:38

and the visionary experiences

1:38

they'd have.

1:40

I was thinking.

1:42

If ever given the opportunity,

1:44

this is what I'm gonna do with

1:44

my life.

1:46

So I start saving money. I mean

1:46

at 17 I was hauled

1:52

ass out of Texas and made it as

1:52

far as Oklahoma,

1:56

still had a year of high school

1:56

ahead of me and which I did

2:01

finish,

2:01

but I was all my classmates were

2:01

out partying.

2:04

I was sitting in the teepees

2:04

with the the native elders and

2:12

And it was in one of these

2:12

native or one of these Peyote

2:15

meetings that

2:17

I met my mentor, Horace Dolkai,

2:20

who is one of the last surviving

2:20

traditional kayuwood doctors.

2:24

And after another year or so of

2:24

college,

2:30

my grades are starting to go

2:30

down.

2:32

I I approached him as I was

2:32

terrified.

2:39

know to say, this is only for

2:39

native folks.

2:42

It's not gonna work for you, but

2:42

still shaking,

2:45

it's like, I wanna know I wanna

2:45

learn to do what you're doing.

2:49

And he's like, what are you

2:49

doing this weekend?

2:52

Can you start fasting? And that

2:52

was his way of testing me

2:57

to determine how serious I was.

3:00

I drove down to the Wichita

3:00

Mountains,

3:02

not eating, drinking the next

3:02

two days and nights,

3:05

and met him where he instructed

3:05

me to

3:10

we just finishing up a POTY

3:10

meeting and and so we spoke and

3:14

said,

3:15

Well come on out, when you

3:15

finish your semester we'll get

3:18

started

3:19

and that's how this part of my

3:19

journey began.

3:24

Nice, I love it. And what was it

3:24

that were you going to this

3:30

place

3:31

to like heal yourself? What was

3:31

it if so,

3:33

what was it you were trying to

3:33

heal from?

3:36

At that point I didn't even

3:36

recognize my woundedness.

3:41

I grew up in a background that

3:41

was very culty

3:45

in many respects and and there

3:45

was a lot of physical emotional

3:51

abuse.

3:51

it was pretty bad without going

3:51

into all the gory details.

3:57

But I was quite dissociated and

3:57

to make

4:03

it out of there, out of Texas on

4:03

my own.

4:07

and living among the native

4:07

folks and then getting my ass

4:12

into college,

4:13

doing my first two years. And I

4:13

was running wild.

4:17

One of my friends said getting

4:17

me high was like pouring

4:19

gasoline onto fire.

4:20

Yeah.

4:20

And

4:22

it was a blast. Yeah, it was

4:22

just so much fun running

4:25

everywhere,

4:26

back and forth between Oklahoma

4:26

and New Mexico.

4:28

And you know, just a lot of fun

4:28

with friends.

4:32

But but then when I started

4:32

apprenticing with my mentor

4:37

Things got pretty serious really

4:37

quickly.

4:39

I a lot of the Native American

4:39

doctors possessed paranormal

4:45

abilities

4:46

and extraordinary capac

4:46

capabilities that a

4:51

lot of people you could say were

4:51

beyond the range of what most

4:55

people even consider

4:57

to be possible. And it's not

4:57

just Native Americans.

5:00

For me, spending time in India

5:00

and China,

5:03

these different cultures, I

5:05

Seeing a lot of intense stuff,

5:06

but but Horace would transmit

5:06

portions of his healing gifts to

5:11

me.

5:12

The native people refer to that

5:12

as medicine,

5:16

these kinds of powers. And in

5:16

order to earn the right to work

5:20

with these gifts

5:21

of healing, it's typical one

5:21

goes through the vision quest,

5:25

which usually entails four days

5:25

and nights alone in the

5:29

mountains without food

5:31

and water. And so

5:35

Horace would have me again

5:35

transmitting these healing

5:38

gifts,

5:39

this medicine, going through the

5:39

vision quest,

5:42

and then gradually assisting

5:42

him.

5:44

that was one aspect of the

5:44

training.

5:50

There's other parts of it too.

5:52

I think because I was a a white

5:52

guy,

5:57

and there was something where he

5:57

had this thing where

6:03

you gotta earn it.

6:04

You really want this white boy?

6:06

Let's see how bad you want it.

6:08

And so Horace was the end of the

6:08

line as far as his own tribe.

6:13

There were a few other doctors,

6:15

but they weren't anywhere near

6:15

as powerful or gifted as Horace

6:19

was.

6:19

And to this day, and I've seen

6:19

healers like from Brazil and the

6:23

Philippines,

6:24

other parts of the world, and I

6:24

haven't seen anyone or even

6:28

heard of anyone who's

6:29

as powerful as Horace was in

6:29

this day.

6:31

But

6:33

Horse being the end of the line.

6:34

Like a lot of these native

6:34

doctors in these tribes,

6:38

when they put the native people

6:38

on the reservations and they

6:42

were taking

6:43

the children away from their

6:43

families,

6:46

putting them in boarding

6:46

schools,

6:48

and and a lot of these children

6:48

were subjected to horrendous

6:52

trauma,

6:53

horrific even, beaten for

6:53

speaking their own native

6:57

languages,

6:58

their hair was cut off, couldn't

7:01

wear their traditional clothes

7:01

or speak in again in their own

7:04

languages.

7:05

They were just put in uniforms

7:05

and subjected to verbal,

7:10

emotional, physical, sometimes

7:10

even sexual abuse.

7:14

There are graves of you know

7:14

like native children.

7:19

Sometimes conditions were so bad

7:19

they were trying to escape and

7:23

they would freeze

7:24

to death, or children dying of

7:24

tuberculosis and other

7:27

infectious diseases.

7:30

and so there's this collective

7:30

generational trauma among a

7:35

of these native children who

7:35

were forced into these

7:38

residential schools.

7:39

When a lot of the children did

7:39

come back home,

7:44

sometimes it could be years when

7:44

they were away or whenever

7:47

they'd get back,

7:48

and these old native doctors,

7:53

you know, they realized that

7:53

this these gifts,

7:57

this medicine, this power needed

7:57

to be passed on.

8:00

And they were having trouble

8:00

finding anyone to accept it.

8:05

And sometimes they would try to

8:05

pass this power,

8:09

this medicine, on to this young

8:09

children,

8:12

and but that power was too

8:12

intense,

8:15

too too much for the child to

8:15

handle.

8:18

And so sometimes the old doctor

8:18

would have to take it back and

8:22

would take

8:23

it to the grave with them. So

8:28

Horace was trying to pass it on

8:28

to a

8:34

few more than normal and what

8:34

they normally do.

8:37

But during the apprenticeship,

8:42

Horace was gradually having me

8:42

assist him in working with

8:46

people,

8:46

and I was very hesitant at

8:46

first,

8:48

not feeling like I really knew

8:48

enough.

8:51

And in hindsight,

8:55

I understand a little more why,

8:57

but at the time

8:58

Is still very hesitant, but

8:58

Horace is saying,

9:02

I can't explain everything you

9:02

need to do here.

9:05

This is going to reveal itself

9:05

to you.

9:08

You just have to start working

9:08

with people.

9:10

And that's when you'll gain the

9:10

understanding of how to work

9:14

with this medicine,

9:16

these healing gifts. Horace's

9:16

own experience,

9:20

his father had transmitted.

9:25

the medicine to him shortly

9:25

before he shipped

9:29

off to Europe to fight in World

9:29

War II.

9:35

Horace still had flexor German

9:35

shrapnel in his back.

9:39

Yeah, he was he grew up back

9:39

there in nineteen twenties,

9:45

thirties, and fought in World

9:45

War Two in Europe.

9:48

And and then Horace came back,

9:53

you know, afterwards and

9:56

his the account that I heard

9:56

from a man

10:02

who was adopted basically into

10:02

Horace's family was that

10:10

Hor Horace's oldest son was not

10:10

doing that well,

10:17

was physically ill. And and

10:17

someone said,

10:21

Look, you have the medicine, you

10:21

have that power from your

10:24

father.

10:24

You need to see what you can do

10:24

for your own son.

10:28

And Horace just at that point,

10:32

you know, he started making the

10:32

effort,

10:34

and that's when that power began

10:34

to awaken within him.

10:39

For me though, in addition to

10:39

the

10:46

Transmitting the gifts and going

10:46

through the Vision Quest and

10:50

assisting Horace,

10:52

he would do things like at one

10:52

point he dropped me off in

10:57

the middle of the Hopi Indian

10:57

Reservation with thirty dollars

11:02

in my backpack.

11:03

He said, Hitchhik to Las Vegas,

11:06

Nevada. Make it the best you

11:06

can.

11:09

Mm.

11:09

And that was terrifying at

11:15

Yeah, it's twenty, twenty one,

11:16

somewhere in there. And

11:21

is he expected me to survive,

11:21

just use my instincts

11:25

and and getting in there and

11:25

first thing that came

11:32

to mind growing up in the

11:32

Christian eva evangelical

11:36

movement is like

11:37

I started calling churches, you

11:37

know,

11:39

just feeding them this line,

11:39

like,

11:41

Yeah, I was staying on the

11:41

reservation.

11:43

There's no work. I needed to

11:43

find work here to survive.

11:47

And so I got put up in a

11:47

boarding house and

11:51

And after finding a job and

11:51

making a friend and we shared

11:55

this small apartment

11:57

and but after a couple of months

11:57

horse shows up and it's like

12:01

ready to

12:01

go and we were back on the road

12:01

again.

12:04

And that experience where he

12:04

dropped you off at the Hopi

12:08

reservation,

12:09

what did that teach you about

12:09

trusting yourself?

12:15

it wasn't so much intellectual

12:15

you know realization that

12:21

came to me out of it. It was

12:21

more like

12:27

Just and and I I still do this

12:27

to this day sometimes.

12:33

Yeah, things are precarious,

12:36

you know, along the way. Two

12:36

thousand eight,

12:39

nine, the banksters crashed the

12:39

economy,

12:43

those can I say the word?

12:47

Can I use a little creative

12:47

language?

12:51

You can use some creative

12:51

language,

12:52

yeah, go for it.

12:53

And those assholes in the

12:53

financial industry who should

12:57

have gone

12:57

to prison for their risky

12:57

financial maneuvers that crashed

13:01

the economy,

13:02

where people are losing their

13:02

homes and their businesses and

13:07

their life savings

13:08

and stuff. and you know,

13:12

that time for instance, and the

13:12

bottom fell out from under me

13:16

too.

13:16

So there are times when there's

13:22

great uncertainty when there's a

13:22

lot of fear and just not knowing

13:26

how

13:26

I'm gonna make it, how I'm gonna

13:26

survive.

13:28

And it's it's been challenging

13:28

for me even since COVID,

13:32

because before COVID I would do

13:32

classes on a weekly basis

13:38

in New York City and every other

13:38

week I would venture up to the

13:42

Boston area,

13:43

do classes there. That's how I

13:43

built my practice.

13:47

There healers in different

13:47

traditions

13:53

Like you find among the Native

13:53

Americans and Brazil and

13:56

Philippines

13:57

and among different indigenous

13:57

cultures.

14:00

And

14:04

some of the Buddhist lineages

14:04

and the Hindu Vedic traditions,

14:08

you have individuals who carry

14:08

these transmissions.

14:12

And when you have the

14:12

opportunity to be around someone

14:18

such as myself

14:19

or in these other lineages, and

14:19

they carry these transmissions,

14:23

one of the things that happens

14:23

is,

14:27

well for instance, when people

14:27

would show up in my classes and

14:32

I would be

14:33

guiding them through this these

14:33

series of meditation practices

14:37

that I developed.

14:38

In my case, it was because I

14:38

suffered so much trauma.

14:42

And so the meditation practices

14:42

were originally developed to

14:47

facilitate

14:47

my own healing. But then I began

14:47

to adapt them to the needs of

14:52

whether someone

14:53

was struggling with a digestive

14:53

or respiratory disorder,

14:57

or if they were going through a

14:57

breakup or divorce or

15:01

Yes.

15:03

you

15:04

know, whatever, you know, they

15:04

lost their job and got laid off,

15:08

you know, it's like but people

15:08

would feel this power,

15:13

this presence coming through me,

15:17

working with them. And and I've

15:17

spent time with

15:23

say like a Satu from Nepal,

15:27

for instance. This is just one

15:27

of numerous individuals.

15:31

And

15:34

And even spending time with him,

15:36

telling him about, say, Okay,

15:39

I work as a healer and this is

15:39

how I'm assisting people.

15:42

Here are my challenges. Can you

15:42

transmit,

15:46

you know, like some of what you

15:46

can that gift or that power that

15:51

you embody that

15:53

you carry? And when he did that

15:53

that night I felt like I had the

15:58

sun

15:58

in the middle of my chest.

16:01

I couldn't go to sleep for hours

16:01

until maybe like four or five in

16:04

the morning.

16:05

And and so when you s have the

16:05

opportunity to spend time,

16:10

you know, with someone such as

16:10

myself or people in these

16:13

traditions,

16:14

other lineages, then there's

16:14

this power,

16:18

this transmission that it

16:18

facilitates healing,

16:23

it facilitates this growth or

16:23

evolution,

16:26

it helps you to work through

16:26

like a lot of the limitations

16:29

that you

16:30

carry. But one of the things

16:30

that's so unfortunate with

16:33

COVID,

16:34

and we were moving in that

16:34

direction beforehand anyway,

16:37

COVID just pushed it on over the

16:37

edge,

16:41

is that people more and more

16:41

instead of getting out,

16:47

going to live events, showing up

16:47

in person are more inclined to

16:52

go to online events.

16:54

go to workshops. You know, they

16:54

try to do everything remotely,

16:57

remote healing sessions, remote

16:57

classes or workshops.

17:00

And and maybe that can work for

17:00

some people in some instances.

17:06

I mean there's there are kinds

17:06

of learning events that yeah,

17:13

you can pretty much get it all

17:13

online.

17:15

But but for those of us who

17:15

carry these kinds of gifts,

17:19

this transmission, if you only

17:23

show up online, you're missing a

17:23

lot.

17:27

Yeah, there's a lot of things

17:27

too that in life that you can't

17:31

fully experience,

17:32

like you said, unless you're in

17:32

person.

17:34

Like right there.

17:34

in person.

17:35

Yeah.

17:37

Yeah. And a big part of my work

17:37

anyway is teaching people to

17:42

show

17:43

up more and more fully present.

17:45

I feel all of us to some degree

17:45

are not fully in our bodies.

17:51

We're some some degree to some

17:51

degree dissociated.

17:54

And I see it. I feel it.

17:57

it's one of the things I would

17:57

do when people would show up in

18:00

my classes

18:01

at the end. I would have them

18:01

stand in front of me.

18:04

Start scanning their body, and I

18:04

could see whatever emotional

18:08

wounding they were

18:09

struggling with, traumas they

18:09

were carrying,

18:14

sometimes going all the way back

18:14

to childhood,

18:16

if they were going through a

18:16

breakup or divorce,

18:18

and health-related issues they

18:18

were struggling with as well.

18:22

And and they may have shared

18:22

some things with me in class,

18:27

but there's a lot they didn't

18:27

share,

18:29

and people are often shock,

18:29

like,

18:31

how do you see all this?

18:34

And that's how I got much of my

18:34

work.

18:35

yeah, with like, if he could see

18:35

this,

18:39

he must have something going.

18:42

I gotta work with this person.

18:43

Yeah.

18:44

Yeah, yeah for sure.

18:46

And how can someone tell the

18:46

difference between actually

18:50

processing

18:51

an emotion and simply thinking

18:51

or talking about it?

19:00

You know, I went into

19:00

psychotherapy for a few years.

19:04

Psychotherapy is a very

19:04

important part of many of our

19:07

healing processes.

19:08

yet I carried so much trauma.

19:13

And part of the reason I went

19:13

into psychotherapy was because

19:17

when

19:18

I began to work on my own, after

19:18

f few years

19:24

of apprenticeship with Horace,

19:25

I needed to reassemble myself.

19:27

And

19:29

I parked my ass in college for a

19:29

few years,

19:31

earned a degree, and put myself

19:31

back together at the same time.

19:36

And so as it's getting close to

19:36

graduation,

19:41

it's like college financial aid

19:41

is running out.

19:44

I was barely surviving off of

19:44

it.

19:47

But still, it was something.

19:52

And but when I started working

19:52

with people and that

19:57

That is when that power began to

19:57

awaken inside of me.

20:00

It was like pouring hydrogen

20:00

peroxide into a deeply infected

20:04

wound.

20:04

And so this emotional wounding,

20:08

like the I found myself

20:08

reenacting a lot of the trauma

20:13

of

20:14

my childhood and adolescence,

20:14

and the way I was forming

20:18

attachments

20:19

to women who were often

20:19

unavailable or disinterested,

20:23

and a few who were quite

20:23

abusive.

20:25

And

20:27

The pain at times was

20:27

excruciating.

20:30

I was at a complete loss. So

20:30

initially I went into

20:35

psychotherapy

20:38

not knowing what else to do, and

20:38

it enabled me to gain

20:42

a much needed intellectual

20:42

understanding of my wounding

20:48

and wanting to understand much

20:48

deeper,

20:51

I kept I was devouring

20:57

volumes and volumes of clinical

20:57

texts.

20:59

Part of my I had some like a

20:59

triple major in college,

21:06

but part of it was psychology,

21:08

just cause of my fascination and

21:08

wanting to understand my own

21:13

emotional wounding

21:14

and that of others.

21:15

And and

21:20

but I discovered that

21:20

intellectual understanding only

21:24

went so

21:24

far because the patterns were

21:26

perpetuating themselves. And

21:32

When I found myself reenacting

21:32

those patterns and consumed by

21:37

this overwhelming

21:39

and at times excruciating pain,

21:41

instinctively I somehow knew to

21:41

dive into the depths of what I

21:45

was feeling.

21:46

I would go so far into it.

21:52

And yet at a certain point

21:56

I could feel it breaking open

21:56

and coming out of my body in

22:00

waves.

22:00

And as that happened, I began to

22:00

experience these powerful

22:05

emanations

22:05

of warmth beginning to glow from

22:05

within.

22:08

And with that, I could feel

22:13

the unhealthy attachments

22:13

starting to dissolve.

22:16

Maybe there is a woman I was

22:16

fixated on,

22:19

as desperately trying to.

22:24

To hold on to make the

22:24

relationship work.

22:26

I thought she was the one. It

22:26

was all projection on my part,

22:30

especially seeing some of those

22:30

women in hindsight.

22:35

Mm-hmm.

22:36

It's not that they were bad

22:36

necessarily.

22:38

I mean, a few were quite

22:38

abusive,

22:40

but but a lot of it,

22:46

yeah, I I see it as a reflection

22:46

primarily of my own emotional

22:50

wounding.

22:51

But again, as I started to

22:54

Do the deep level processing to

22:54

actually digest

22:59

the backlog of painful emotion,

23:02

I'd feel this.

23:07

these powerful desires that that

23:07

need,

23:11

that longing, the feeling that I

23:11

had to be with that individual.

23:19

And when did you first recognize

23:19

that you were rein re enacting

23:23

wounds from earlier

23:24

in your life?

23:26

Well that was when, like I was

23:26

saying,

23:29

the when I was forming those

23:29

attachments to and it

23:34

was it was this cycle of

23:34

reenactment.

23:37

It was like one relationship

23:37

after another and and just being

23:42

strung

23:42

out emotionally on some of these

23:42

women that I formed attachments

23:47

to.

23:47

And you know, I'd see other

23:47

people and you know,

23:51

you have individuals that have

23:51

more of a secure attachment

23:55

style and

23:56

only natur naturally gravitate

23:56

towards other individuals with

24:00

a more secure attachment style

24:00

and they they bond and their

24:06

the relationships tend to flow

24:06

and they partner up and tend

24:12

to be for extended

24:13

Yeah.

24:14

periods of time. You also have

24:14

those of us with in insecure

24:18

attachment styles tend

24:20

to form attachments to

24:20

individuals with more anxious,

24:23

avoidant

24:26

More ambiguous kinds of

24:26

attachment styles.

24:28

And so as I

24:34

was enacting those patterns and

24:34

it was continuing to perpetuate

24:38

itself,

24:38

it's like, yeah, I got a

24:38

problem.

24:40

This is something I would need

24:40

to address.

24:42

And it wasn't enough to just

24:42

learn about it intellectually.

24:46

The wounding was so deep. And so

24:46

a big part of it was working

24:50

with this

24:52

what

24:53

was the beginning of the system

24:53

of meditation practices I

24:57

developed,

24:58

which I found then and and still

24:58

to this day

25:04

I find very powerful. Yet it

25:04

wasn't that long before I hit

25:09

the wall.

25:10

I, you know, taking things as

25:10

far as I could on my own,

25:13

but as realizing that

25:18

I'm not getting it all on my

25:18

own.

25:20

There are limits to what I can

25:20

do fully on my own.

25:23

That's when I began to explore

25:23

other therapeutic interventions.

25:29

I didn't know. I was at a

25:29

complete loss initially,

25:33

just not knowing. And so any

25:33

therapeutic intervention that

25:37

held problems,

25:38

you know, acupuncture,

25:38

homeopathic medicine,

25:41

deep tissue body work is mainly

25:41

the sessions I did with gifted

25:47

healers.

25:48

And the Vision Quest again, that

25:48

you know,

25:51

it was around the time I turned

25:51

30 that I was feeling that pull

25:56

to return to Oklahoma to the

25:56

Wichita Mountains.

26:00

And of all the interventions,

26:03

the Vision Quest is by far the

26:03

most powerful.

26:06

There are times, especially on

26:06

the fourth night,

26:10

where I could feel this

26:10

extraordinarily powerful

26:12

presence descend into my body.

26:18

Portions of it are much like a

26:18

near-death experience,

26:21

where I would have parts of my

26:21

life,

26:23

even going back as far as early

26:23

childhood

26:29

or anywhere along the way, even

26:29

more recent adversity.

26:33

But all these lived experiences

26:33

would be flooding back into my

26:38

awareness

26:39

of the vivid sensory

26:39

impressions.

26:44

what I saw, what I heard, what I

26:44

felt,

26:46

everything, all the emotions

26:46

attached to that,

26:49

all this is coming back up. And

26:49

I could feel myself digesting

26:54

it,

26:54

like the food that I eat. And as

26:54

I'm digesting it,

26:58

I could feel this new foundation

26:58

taking shape.

27:02

And and as I come out the other

27:02

end,

27:05

I mean I could in many instances

27:05

I would still be

27:11

having these emotions surface in

27:11

the coming days and weeks.

27:14

But as I continue to cycle

27:14

through that.

27:20

I'm coming to greater degrees of

27:20

clarity and understanding and

27:24

resolution.

27:25

And there's this new foundation

27:25

taking shape.

27:30

And I test it out as I go back

27:30

out in the world,

27:34

as I'm interacting with people.

27:35

I can see and feel how instead

27:35

of being

27:41

so caught up in the the old

27:41

relational dynamics or patterns

27:47

as in acting.

27:49

I could see how I was relating,

27:50

engaging from a healthier

27:50

standpoint,

27:53

and I could also feel a

27:53

tremendous difference over time

27:58

in how other people respond

28:00

to me. So I'm always reality

28:00

testing,

28:04

checking,

28:04

Mm-hmm.

28:05

monitoring,

28:05

because I want to I like to get

28:05

a sense of like,

28:10

am I making progress or in what

28:10

ways?

28:14

the other thing too is that

28:20

You know, I shared a article

28:20

that I'm completing about growth

28:25

orientation.

28:26

And in the beginning,

28:30

I didn't really understand much

28:30

about healing.

28:34

That wasn't initially, yeah,

28:38

I wanted to learn from a

28:38

traditional native doctor,

28:43

but I didn't really have much of

28:43

a concept of what it actually

28:47

entailed.

28:48

And

28:51

seeing my mentor as a role

28:51

model.

28:53

Horace to this day is still the

28:53

gift most gifted,

29:00

most powerful of any healer I've

29:00

ever encountered

29:04

or interacted with, or even

29:04

heard of.

29:09

You know, he's working with

29:09

people with cancer and kemia and

29:14

wide range

29:15

of health-related issues. And

29:15

I've seen him

29:21

facilitate healing that would be

29:21

considered miraculous.

29:24

Horace didn't really know or

29:24

understand how to deal with his

29:28

own emotional wounding.

29:30

He carried a lot of trauma

29:30

himself.

29:33

He's primarily just addressing

29:33

the physical in the work that

29:39

he did with people. In my case,

29:43

I had all this again as I

29:43

started working with people,

29:50

a lot of my own traumatic

29:50

wounding began to surface.

29:54

I didn't know, I didn't

29:54

understand it as

30:00

I was beginning and

30:05

But over time, well part of it

30:05

was I

30:08

was so incapacitated in many

30:08

respects by the

30:14

I wasn't all that functional.

30:14

But what I found is that as

30:20

I took the steps working with

30:20

what became

30:27

the series of meditation

30:27

practices,

30:29

incorporating the most powerful

30:29

therapeutic interventions.

30:35

As I came upon them as I began

30:35

to learn about them,

30:37

and especially the sessions with

30:37

gifted healers and going back to

30:42

do the vision quest, what I

30:42

found is that there

30:47

was this gradual process of

30:47

habilitation that was taking

30:52

place.

30:52

I could feel, I had this very

30:52

acute sense

30:57

of my limitations.

31:02

One of the things that I

31:02

addressed in the article that I

31:04

shared with

31:05

you is that many people in our

31:05

society are what

31:12

you call crises motivated when

31:12

it comes to healing.

31:15

When when their lives are

31:15

blowing up,

31:18

whether it's they're blowing a

31:18

gasket and their physical body

31:24

is having health issues, when

31:24

the relationships are blowing

31:30

up.

31:31

They lose their job or just

31:31

whatever crises.

31:34

Then they seek healing. And you

31:34

see a lot of people who I've

31:40

seen it,

31:41

I find it really disappointing.

31:44

Sometimes it makes it very hard

31:44

for me to take people seriously.

31:48

they'll come in, they'll do,

31:50

it'd show up in my classes,

31:50

they'd come in and do a few

31:54

healing sessions,

31:55

and and as the crises is blowing

31:55

over,

31:59

it's like, everything's cool.

32:01

I'm fine now. And they just

32:01

disappear.

32:04

I'm like, what?

32:06

Yeah.

32:07

Because

32:10

Doing the work that I've done,

32:12

you know, over decades now,

32:15

and what it took to heal the

32:15

wounding,

32:19

the trauma that I carried

32:19

myself,

32:21

that wounding being so deep, it

32:21

took an extraordinary amount of

32:25

work.

32:26

And in doing so, it made me

32:26

incredibly empathic

32:32

and enabled me to develop these

32:32

capacities to look and feel

32:36

deeply into people's

32:37

bodies and minds. And so

32:41

Say we do a few individual

32:41

sessions.

32:44

They show up in classes, I teach

32:44

them some of the meditation

32:48

practices,

32:48

and yeah, they feel better. They

32:48

are maybe they work with me

32:52

individually,

32:53

they do a few sessions, and it's

32:53

they're not in that distress.

32:59

But in a few sessions,

33:02

we've

33:05

We've barely gone down through a

33:05

few layers.

33:08

One of the things that deeply

33:08

impressed me,

33:12

in addition to training with

33:12

this traditional Native American

33:16

doctor from

33:17

the Kiowa tribe, at

33:20

shortly before I turned forty,

33:25

I'd gone through a few too many

33:25

mugging attempts.

33:28

And this guy was attempting to

33:28

rob me.

33:34

walking on Seventh Street in

33:34

Manhattan.

33:36

I whipped out pepper spray and

33:36

chase his ass down the street.

33:40

And he runs behind a car and

33:40

we're doing this number.

33:43

And some dumbass lags the police

33:43

down,

33:46

you know, not not having enough

33:46

brain in their skull to think,

33:49

you know, he's probably have a

33:49

good reason,

33:51

you know, for chasing this guy.

33:52

Is this

33:53

And next thing I know, the the

33:53

police had me up against

33:58

the wall and I'm this close to

33:58

going to jail.

34:05

And and I'm saying to the

34:05

officer,

34:08

like, okay, so what am I

34:08

supposed to do?

34:10

Get beaten up because some trash

34:10

thinks he's gonna mug me.

34:13

And the officer is like, This is

34:13

New York,

34:15

you have to get used to it. And

34:15

I'm thinking,

34:17

F you, you know, it's like, I'll

34:17

go

34:19

What would it

34:20

find the most ruthless master I

34:20

could find to train with the

34:24

next time

34:24

I will paralyze the son of a

34:24

bitch.

34:26

And so I go down to Chinatown

34:26

and

34:33

in Manhattan, go into this

34:33

martial arts store,

34:37

ask the guy behind the counter,

34:38

So who do you recommend? And he

34:38

points to this rack of flyers.

34:42

I take this whole stack of

34:42

flyers home with me.

34:46

I'm reading through them one by

34:46

one.

34:48

You have Shaolin Monks in these

34:48

like dramatic poses.

34:53

But there's one in this printed

34:53

on dingy looking yellow paper.

34:58

The English grammar was

34:58

absolutely horrible.

35:00

But I'm reading it's like,

35:03

I want to train with this guy.

35:04

I go to his studio a few days

35:04

later and get started.

35:08

And but one of the things that I

35:08

came to learn out of I

35:15

I trained with Shifu Li Tai

35:15

Liang for like 17 years.

35:19

Hope to get back at some point,

35:21

you know, in this transitional

35:21

period right now.

35:24

but

35:30

Training with Shifu and

35:30

traveling to China on several

35:36

occasions,

35:37

training with one of his

35:37

relatives over there,

35:40

another master who has since

35:40

passed on.

35:42

And you see these individuals

35:42

who have attained mastery.

35:48

And you know, for them it's they

35:48

don't do this flaky

35:53

ass dabbling, you know, like

35:53

yeah,

35:58

like

35:59

maybe fifteen or twenty minutes

35:59

of meditation here and there and

36:03

then they

36:04

I got busy. I've sorry it I

36:04

haven't kept up with it.

36:08

They don't show up for a healing

36:08

session or two and like I'm

36:11

everything's cool

36:12

now I'll see you later. They're

36:12

like on a daily basis,

36:18

like doing hours of intensive

36:18

daily practice.

36:21

And a lot of them develop

36:21

extraordinary gifts

36:28

and capabilities.

36:30

even to the extent what would be

36:30

described as paranormal.

36:37

And and then even spending time

36:37

in India,

36:41

Sri Lanka, and being around

36:41

people in the Hindu Vedic

36:46

traditions,

36:48

yogis, gurus, the satu from

36:48

Nepal.

36:57

They're doing hours of intensive

36:57

daily practice,

37:01

you know, they're developing

37:01

these capabilities.

37:04

So there's not this kind of

37:04

episodic off and on half-ass

37:09

dabble in healing.

37:11

It's like they pour themselves

37:11

into it.

37:14

It's hard for people in our

37:14

culture.

37:17

We don't really have of a point

37:17

of reference for that when

37:22

it comes to spiritual

37:22

development.

37:25

And and this isn't just some

37:25

woo-woo out there like,

37:28

you know, it's I mean, this is

37:28

very hardcore.

37:33

you have some of the most rugged

37:33

individuals who r really

37:39

put themselves through it. You

37:39

know,

37:41

you think of the Native

37:41

Americans,

37:43

the Vision Quest, the Sundance,

37:44

you're fasting the four days and

37:44

nights without food and water.

37:47

Some of them went even longer

37:47

than four days and nights,

37:50

up to seven.

37:53

Yeah, and you could survive a

37:53

lot longer than two days without

37:56

food and water.

37:57

Yeah.

37:57

Yeah. In

37:59

the in this crisis driven

37:59

society that you're explaining,

38:03

you know, people do some of the

38:03

work when they fall apart and

38:06

then things

38:07

get comfortable again. They're

38:07

like,

38:08

Well, I'm not gonna pass this

38:08

line because I don't wanna do

38:11

the uncomfortable work.

38:12

Why do you think that pattern is

38:12

so common?

38:16

A lot of it's because of this

38:16

there's this very dysfunctional

38:24

orientation in our culture of

38:24

and and I'm I'm not saying

38:29

everyone,

38:30

I I definitely don't want to

38:30

generalize it to everybody

38:34

because what's missing

38:36

among many people is a growth

38:36

orientation and

38:43

This is one of the things that I

38:43

was describing with the people

38:46

in these traditions is that that

38:46

commitment and the showing up

38:51

day after day,

38:53

whether it's the Buddhist monks,

38:55

the those in the Taoist lineages

38:55

training in these martial arts,

38:59

the in the Hindu Vedic

38:59

traditions among the Native

39:02

Americans

39:03

who would continually go through

39:03

the vision quest and sundance,

39:07

these other intensive ritual

39:07

practices.

39:09

And so instead of sh

39:12

when they're in the midst of a

39:12

crisis,

39:17

reaching out to someone such as

39:17

myself,

39:20

help me, save me, help me get my

39:20

ass together.

39:24

and then and then disappearing.

39:27

It's like they're like showing

39:27

up consistently,

39:33

day after day. And and there's

39:33

this a a whole different

39:38

understanding,

39:39

a whole different mindset.

39:42

another thing too is that

39:46

Where I would see people show up

39:46

in the midst of crises and

39:50

things blow over

39:51

and they disappear. There's

39:51

there's very much in our culture

39:55

this like

39:55

get comfortable mindset. Like

39:55

people want to get to a place

40:00

where they're

40:01

comfortable and it's like, okay,

40:03

things are cool. I don't have to

40:03

really deal with things,

40:05

I can just cruise along. But the

40:05

thing is,

40:08

you cannot sit still for very

40:08

long.

40:12

Either you're

40:13

Growing, you're evolving, you're

40:13

developing,

40:16

or you're sliding down into

40:16

stagnation.

40:19

And so in these ancient

40:19

traditional cultures,

40:26

there is more of an

40:26

understanding of that.

40:28

And I could feel within myself

40:28

there there

40:35

were times in my 20s that I just

40:35

didn't know what to do,

40:39

and maybe I wasn't in that

40:39

really difficult.

40:44

Crises of relationship blowing

40:44

up and unrequited love

40:50

or whatever mess it was. But

40:50

there are times where it was

40:55

just I

40:56

was still alone and aching and

40:56

longing and all that,

41:00

but I didn't know what to do.

41:00

But gradually,

41:03

as I began to discover, you

41:03

know,

41:06

develop the system of practice,

41:08

as I began to

41:10

explore these different

41:10

therapeutic interventions as I

41:14

began to go

41:15

on the vision quest again. And

41:15

then over time,

41:19

as I was connecting the dots,

41:19

training with this Chinese

41:23

master,

41:24

seeing how those in the Taoist

41:24

lineages developed extraordinary

41:29

power,

41:30

capacity, capability in these

41:30

other ancient lineages.

41:38

I developed more this mindset of

41:38

like,

41:40

well, instead of just

41:45

coming to healing, you know,

41:45

taking the steps to heal when my

41:50

life was blowing up.

41:53

Is getting to this place of

41:53

like,

41:55

this is something you do every

41:55

day.

41:58

And so even if I'm not in

41:58

crises,

42:03

which you know, the more you do

42:03

this work and you build the

42:06

foundation,

42:06

yeah, you you you become much

42:06

stronger and more resilient when

42:12

when shit happens,

42:13

when you're faced with

42:13

challenges,

42:16

you have more resources, you're

42:16

more capable,

42:18

you just get in and you deal

42:18

with it.

42:21

And

42:23

And like the the father of a

42:23

friend of mine who was in

42:27

Vietnam served multiple tours

42:28

of duty, and one of the things

42:28

he would say to himself is just

42:32

face it,

42:33

deal with it. And I say that to

42:33

myself,

42:36

whatever challenge I'm faced

42:36

with.

42:38

And and the more we can embrace

42:38

life,

42:42

whatever presents itself to us,

42:47

whatever challenge, whatever

42:47

obstacle,

42:51

you know, if we take that as a

42:51

reflection of ourselves and our

42:54

limitations,

42:55

a lot of it's a reflection.

42:55

There are cer certain things

42:59

too.

42:59

You know, if you're in Ukraine

42:59

and you have this idiot next

43:03

door,

43:03

you know, who is sending

43:03

millions of his own countrymen

43:08

to to die

43:09

in the meat grinder and and then

43:09

the people in Ukraine are

43:13

getting

43:14

you know Shahad drones and and

43:14

ballistic missiles and

43:21

in that case I wouldn't say it's

43:21

a reflection of your emotional

43:24

wounding.

43:24

It's just the asshole next door

43:24

who unfortunately is in power

43:28

and hopefully someone's gonna

43:28

whack his ass and and the war

43:32

will eventually end.

43:33

But we'll see what happens. but

43:33

in any case

43:37

yeah not everything is a

43:37

reflection of your wounding but

43:42

what a lot

43:43

of it is to the best of your

43:43

ability face life as it presents

43:49

itself

43:51

Embrace life, whatever

43:51

challenges you face,

43:54

and to the best of your ability,

43:56

how can I work with this? And

43:56

even when you're faced with what

44:01

seems like

44:02

insurmountable odds or life is

44:02

not working,

44:05

when that happens to me, you

44:05

know,

44:08

I'll sit down, I'll close my

44:08

eyes,

44:10

and it's like, what am I feeling

44:10

in response to that?

44:14

You know, what emotions, what

44:14

physical sensations I go into

44:18

it.

44:19

It fear, anxiety, frustration,

44:21

disappointment, sadness, grief.

44:23

there's a whole range of

44:23

enjoyable,

44:26

pleasant emotions too, but I

44:26

start out with these unpleasant

44:30

ones because that's

44:31

where we tend to get stuck. And

44:31

the more I can work with those

44:35

emotions,

44:35

it gets me to a place where I'm

44:35

more resilient.

44:41

I get through the

44:47

As I cycle through the more

44:47

difficult,

44:49

unpleasant, painful, fearful,

44:49

anxious,

44:53

whatever, feelings, emotions, I

44:53

have more clarity.

44:58

There's more acceptance for what

44:58

I can't change,

45:02

but there's also more resolve

45:02

for,

45:04

like, okay, here's some things I

45:04

can do differently.

45:08

and it it helps me to access

45:13

my internal resources so I can.

45:16

face those challenges head on so

45:16

I can deal with them more

45:21

effectively

45:22

so I have an increased coping

45:22

capacity.

45:30

Another thing that I I see a lot

45:30

of people do is this there's

45:34

there's very much

45:35

it ties in with what we were

45:35

saying before,

45:38

but it's kind of off and on, you

45:38

know,

45:41

like okay, I'll deal with

45:41

something right now,

45:44

but then switching it off or

45:44

I'll deal with

45:48

it when when I feel ready.

45:52

w when I'm

45:57

Whatever. again,

46:00

as much as possible, when

46:00

something presents itself,

46:04

it's not that you're constantly

46:04

twenty-four-seven processing

46:08

your emotions

46:08

and but on a daily basis,

46:12

I feel it's critically important

46:12

that we face life.

46:16

You know, face the challenges,

46:19

face our emotional wounding,

46:19

work with that.

46:22

And and also instead of just

46:27

A lot of people, you know, you

46:27

see like in their homes or

46:31

different areas

46:33

of their lives, there are these

46:33

messes,

46:35

you know, things that they

46:35

haven't dealt with.

46:37

And so as much as possible, like

46:37

I can feel that within myself.

46:43

And and that's been this is a

46:43

very important distinction.

46:50

There's many people have this

46:50

ability

46:58

And maybe they think it served

46:58

them.

47:00

there were times in my life

47:00

earlier on where I saw people

47:05

and they seemed

47:06

to be functioning much

47:07

Okay.

47:07

better. And as time has gone on,

47:10

I've recognized they have a

47:10

greater ability to deny,

47:13

to distract themselves, to

47:13

compartmentalize,

47:16

to push things down. There's

47:16

this I don't want to go there,

47:20

I don't want to look at it, put

47:20

it on the shelf.

47:22

but it's they

47:27

contain it. They stuff it down

47:27

there.

47:29

In my case, I could not escape

47:29

from it.

47:32

It was if it was there, it's

47:32

coming up.

47:36

And it is I'm feeling the

47:36

emotions.

47:40

I can't escape from the

47:40

emotions.

47:43

And it was being reflected back

47:43

to me either in relationships or

47:46

my work

47:47

or some other area of life,

47:47

other interactions.

47:50

And so again, as much as

47:50

possible,

47:54

I feel it's important

47:57

when we're faced with when we're

47:57

confronted with these challenges

48:01

and issues

48:02

and we have these it's eliciting

48:02

these difficult,

48:06

uncomfortable, painful, whatever

48:06

emotional responses,

48:09

when that's coming up to the

48:09

best of our ability,

48:13

we need to just show up. Bring

48:13

as much

48:18

of our as we can to deal with

48:18

what's there,

48:24

to work with it.

48:26

to effectively address it. And

48:26

by doing so,

48:29

we're embodying ourselves. We're

48:29

becoming more present,

48:33

more powerful, we're increasing

48:33

our capability,

48:37

our resilience.

48:40

Yeah, for sure. And you remind

48:40

me of something that happened to

48:43

myself.

48:43

You're saying face it, face your

48:43

challenges.

48:46

I for years I spent years

48:46

playing the victim.

48:50

Like I was always

48:51

huh.

48:51

the victim. And I had an

48:51

interesting conversation with my

48:55

therapist.

48:55

He said, You know what your

48:55

problem is?

48:58

You play the victim in every

48:58

single thing in your life.

49:01

But I didn't realize I was doing

49:01

that.

49:03

So it's like, Well, how how am I

49:03

doing this?

49:07

And he went through and

49:07

explained a few things.

49:09

I can't remember exactly what he

49:09

said,

49:10

but he said, Stop doing that.

49:10

And right as I stopped doing

49:16

that,

49:16

I unlocked this whole world of

49:16

growth.

49:19

And I I started recognizing

49:19

things more clearly in my mind

49:23

that,

49:24

he's right. I I I I w am doing

49:24

this and I am doing this.

49:27

And that's I think the point

49:27

where I learned to face life and

49:32

just push through

49:33

the hard

49:35

So I I love the whole thing that

49:35

you're saying.

49:38

Face it, just face life, just

49:38

deal with it.

49:41

Yeah. And this is a really good

49:41

example of how working with a

49:46

psychotherapist,

49:47

you know, a skilled therapist

49:47

can recognize our patterns and

49:52

reflect that back

49:53

to us and help us to develop

49:53

that self awareness.

49:57

And the fact that many of us not

49:57

knowing how to work effectively

50:02

with our emotions,

50:03

because of that there's more

50:03

numbing,

50:06

more disconnect, and so and

50:06

along with that there's this

50:12

lack of self awareness, we're

50:12

just not perceiving a lot of

50:15

things we're doing.

50:17

Yeah.

50:18

Yeah.

50:21

And one of the things I find is

50:21

that as as I've healed and have

50:26

grown more,

50:27

I tend to attract people into my

50:27

life who are doing considerable

50:32

work themselves.

50:33

And so so I get that added

50:33

benefit

50:38

of they see something about me

50:38

that maybe I'm overlooking,

50:43

they can challenge me on it,

50:43

call my attention to it.

50:48

So

50:50

You talked also a little bit

50:50

about resilience.

50:52

What does genuine emotional

50:52

resilience look like to you?

50:59

Again, it goes back to that

50:59

ability to face what comes

51:06

at us in life and to bounce back

51:06

from us.

51:09

We're all going to encounter

51:09

adversity to some degree.

51:13

trauma,

51:17

adversity. You know,

51:20

we all experience as losses,

51:20

setbacks.

51:23

Maybe we go through breakup or

51:23

divorce.

51:26

And

51:31

And when we're not digesting our

51:31

lived experiences,

51:35

we're not doing the deep level

51:35

processing of the lived

51:38

experiences are the emotions,

51:40

then what happens is we tend to

51:40

contract.

51:43

You know, our lived experiences

51:43

and emotional responses need to

51:48

be digested.

51:49

What doesn't get digested, it

51:49

accumulates in our bodies.

51:54

And

51:56

It doesn't go anywhere. And it

51:56

with that continued

51:59

accumulation,

52:00

we lose resilience. And the more

52:00

that we can face issues head on

52:05

and

52:05

we can work effectively

52:05

effectively with our emotions,

52:09

and we chew up and digest our

52:09

lived experiences and emotional

52:14

responses.

52:15

And then we're showing up and

52:15

we're engaging responsively.

52:20

We're learning and growing from

52:20

that experience,

52:22

these experiences. This is what

52:25

Builds resilience. It's not

52:25

always fun.

52:29

It's not always easy. Sometimes

52:29

it's painful.

52:33

We're upset. We may be hating it

52:33

at times.

52:37

we may feel like a victim

52:37

sometimes.

52:42

We're not going to do it

52:42

perfectly,

52:44

but you know, but to the best of

52:44

our ability.

52:47

The more we just pour ourselves

52:47

into it and embrace life.

52:53

the more that resilience grows

52:53

and and again making use of

52:56

the most effective therapeutic

52:56

interventions because there's a

53:00

limit

53:00

to what we could do on our own.

53:02

And when we take these repeated

53:02

hits,

53:04

which happens to many of us over

53:04

the course of our lives,

53:09

you know, I mean now we have

53:09

this whole other toxic,

53:14

convoluted drama playing out. We

53:14

got this war with Iran and

53:22

gas and diesel or you know going

53:22

way up.

53:27

I don't think we've even seen

53:27

the end of it.

53:29

I think it's gonna get

53:29

considerably worse.

53:30

It yeah, I

53:31

I I think it's gonna get worse.

53:33

It's the gas

53:34

Much worse, yeah.

53:35

is just beginning to rise. I I

53:35

have the fear of that.

53:38

Again.

53:39

Yeah, and so the bottom is going

53:39

to be falling out from under

53:45

people.

53:45

I think it's you know, w we saw

53:45

what happened in two thousand

53:49

eight and nine.

53:50

there's still some people on the

53:50

planet who remember the Great

53:55

Depression,

53:55

who lived through it. A lot of

53:55

them are gone now,

53:57

probably most of them. but

53:57

there's still some who

54:02

are quite old that were born.

54:07

Even during. Yeah, they're

54:07

they're nearing the end now.

54:12

Okay, they're late

54:12

Yeah.

54:13

eighties, nineties, but there's

54:13

still some on the planet.

54:16

And we could have something

54:16

comparable to that.

54:19

And and there's one thing that

54:19

disappoints me about Americans,

54:24

and w we all have our faults.

54:27

It's not that people in other

54:27

nations or other cultures are

54:31

perfect,

54:32

but

54:34

But what I noticed is that a lot

54:34

of Americans they're incredibly

54:40

unaware

54:40

of what's happening beyond our

54:40

borders.

54:43

whereas, you know,

54:47

when I was in Thailand on the

54:47

way back and forth to Sri Lanka,

54:50

I watched CNN because like, wow,

54:53

there's so much more on CNN than

54:53

you see in America.

54:56

There's like all this other news

54:56

and then there's Al Jazeera,

54:59

you know, and it's it's like

55:01

in-depth documentaries of what's

55:01

going on in other parts of the

55:05

world.

55:05

And and I came back from Sri

55:05

Lanka again,

55:08

I've been there 16 times and

55:08

just over three weeks ago.

55:13

And and you have a lot of these

55:13

nations.

55:17

Pakistan is having to ration

55:17

fuel.

55:24

I think something like twelve

55:24

percent of the gas stations in

55:27

France

55:28

do not have gasoline or diesel

55:28

right now.

55:31

And and so thanks to

55:36

our Mandarin Mussolini I may be

55:36

offending a few people with

55:41

that,

55:41

but you know, started this

55:41

unnecessary catastrophic

55:46

war and and so it's affecting

55:52

people all over the world. We're

55:52

not just suffering here in the

55:55

United States,

55:56

all around the globe. And it

55:56

could have really devastating

56:02

impact

56:02

on our economy. And and it looks

56:02

like Putin in his grandiosity

56:08

looks like he's

56:09

pushing to extend the war beyond

56:09

Ukraine.

56:14

And and unfortunately you have

56:14

these dopes in Germany and

56:19

France who are like

56:21

Buying into a lot of the far

56:21

right Russian back propaganda.

56:25

Russia has unfortunately been

56:25

one of the biggest purveyors

56:30

of disinformation and has sown

56:30

dis dissension

56:36

in nations around the world.

56:38

You know, as their one of their

56:38

biggest goals is to subvert

56:42

democracy,

56:43

which I will say I am

56:43

unapologetically pro-democracy.

56:47

Having been in Sri Lanka in the

56:47

midst of a country with

56:51

nearly thirty year brutal war in

56:51

which a couple hundred thousand

56:56

people died

56:57

horrifically and at one point it

56:57

was one of the had

57:04

one of the largest levels of

57:04

enforced disappearances.

57:07

I mean you have people who were

57:07

disappeared by

57:14

the rebel Tamil Tigers,

57:18

the the offshoot,

57:22

I I forget what the Karuna

57:22

faction,

57:25

I forget what their actual title

57:25

was.

57:28

Then the government forces and

57:28

many were tortured

57:34

and executed, dumped in mass

57:34

graves.

57:37

You know, in when you are in a

57:37

nation and in a lot of this

57:42

kind of thing is going on and

57:42

you see people suffering and you

57:46

have close friends

57:47

and their own their own friends,

57:50

their own close family members

57:50

were murdered and disappeared

57:54

and all that,

57:54

it really affects you. And and

57:54

you see how how things could go,

58:00

you know, and and

58:05

Yeah, so I have a lot of

58:05

concerns w seeing what's playing

58:09

out right now.

58:10

You know, and just

58:13

Thinking back though to all your

58:13

life experience,

58:16

is there an emotional pattern

58:16

that comes to mind that took you

58:21

a long time

58:22

to recognize in yourself?

58:26

emotional pattern. I I think the

58:26

biggest thing was just

58:34

the the resistance to pain.

58:41

The at times wanting

58:41

relationships

58:45

to work and wanting

58:50

it so bad that I would

58:54

be attempting to make the

58:54

relationships work and and

59:00

holding

59:01

on and holding on until it

59:01

finally blew up on me.

59:06

And so so over time teaching

59:06

myself to

59:16

to face life as it presents

59:16

itself.

59:20

And and then when I'm faced with

59:20

these challenges,

59:25

it's like, well, what do I

59:25

actually feel?

59:27

And you know,

59:31

we all have outcomes, we all

59:31

have goals and aspirations.

59:35

We have things we want. And that

59:35

that could also be in

59:38

relationship as well.

59:39

But there are times when our

59:39

life doesn't seem to be working,

59:44

when a lot of things are falling

59:44

apart

59:45

When there is this tremendous

59:45

adversity and uncertainty.

59:50

And I and again, I think a lot

59:50

of us may be facing a lot more

59:54

of that

59:56

in the near future, you know,

59:56

the way things are unfolding

1:00:00

right now.

1:00:00

And so when that would happen,

1:00:03

you know, teaching myself like

1:00:03

to acknowledge the reality as

1:00:09

it's playing out,

1:00:10

whether it is a reflection of

1:00:10

me.

1:00:14

in my own limitations, my own

1:00:14

emotional wounding,

1:00:16

which it was in many cases. And

1:00:16

sometimes it's we're living in

1:00:21

this world

1:00:21

and we have these insane effing

1:00:21

idiots,

1:00:24

you know, who manage to get

1:00:24

themselves into positions of

1:00:28

power largely because,

1:00:30

you know, you have a lot of

1:00:30

dopes who don't listen to the

1:00:33

news,

1:00:33

who don't read, who don't follow

1:00:33

history,

1:00:37

and who are susceptible to lies

1:00:37

and disinformation and

1:00:44

vote for people who never should

1:00:44

be in office to begin with.

1:00:47

And and so we end up getting

1:00:47

people in power.

1:00:50

And and so what happens is you

1:00:50

know there are consequences for

1:00:54

that.

1:00:54

Elections have consequences. And

1:00:54

so when the when

1:01:01

we get the karmic blowback and

1:01:01

our lives are blowing up because

1:01:05

you know

1:01:05

the the price of fuel is going

1:01:05

through the roof and and

1:01:10

subsequently

1:01:11

our groceries and people are

1:01:11

losing their jobs and all that.

1:01:14

We're faced with these

1:01:14

realities.

1:01:16

And and so whatever is coming at

1:01:16

us in life,

1:01:21

you know, whatever lived

1:01:21

experience.

1:01:24

And so what I do is, you know,

1:01:27

I'll I'll stop and I'll go,

1:01:27

like,

1:01:30

okay, what's happening? And I

1:01:30

just acknowledge reality for

1:01:33

what it is,

1:01:34

whether it's reflecting me or

1:01:34

it's it's just,

1:01:37

okay, this is just what's

1:01:37

transpiring.

1:01:39

And

1:01:40

The world I happen to be living

1:01:40

in.

1:01:41

Not all of it does reflect us.

1:01:44

and

1:01:49

What am I feeling in response to

1:01:49

it?

1:01:51

And I bring as much awareness as

1:01:51

I can to it.

1:01:53

And whatever comes up,

1:01:56

the sadness, grief, the

1:01:56

frustration,

1:01:59

anxiety, how am I going to make

1:01:59

it?

1:02:01

How am I going to survive in

1:02:01

this?

1:02:02

I work through these emotions.

1:02:04

And it does get me to a place

1:02:04

where I'm calmer,

1:02:10

I'm more resilient, I'm thinking

1:02:10

more clearly,

1:02:13

I'm seeing more options.

1:02:13

sometimes it takes time.

1:02:19

When in 2008 or nine, there were

1:02:19

months and months where

1:02:25

I was couldn't sleep and I had

1:02:25

found found myself consumed with

1:02:30

anxiety.

1:02:30

But I'd be breathing into the

1:02:30

anxiety,

1:02:33

and it's like I'd be saying to

1:02:33

myself,

1:02:36

What am I gonna do? How am I

1:02:36

gonna make it?

1:02:39

and I started getting this

1:02:39

inspiration,

1:02:43

like, you know,

1:02:47

as I've gone.

1:02:49

Through all these steps to heal

1:02:49

over the years,

1:02:52

and I've seen the gradual

1:02:52

transformation,

1:02:54

the healing of the wounding, and

1:02:54

my r the quality of my

1:02:58

relationships have improved.

1:02:59

And and the fact that so many

1:02:59

people have gone through

1:03:04

breakups and divorces.

1:03:06

And one of the things that I see

1:03:06

in classes was that people would

1:03:10

show up,

1:03:11

whether it was in the midst of

1:03:11

the breakup,

1:03:14

six months, or

1:03:15

Even years down the road, and

1:03:15

the vast majority of people are

1:03:18

not digesting that heartbreak

1:03:18

and the ghosting,

1:03:23

the breakup, the divorce, and

1:03:23

they're still carrying that.

1:03:25

And so, but in the midst

1:03:30

of the financial crises of 2008

1:03:30

and nine,

1:03:34

I got the inspiration to begin

1:03:34

to teach these classes.

1:03:38

And so week after week, you

1:03:38

know,

1:03:41

this is how I came up with

1:03:41

creative workable solutions.

1:03:45

The creative workable solutions

1:03:45

that you come up with can very

1:03:50

likely

1:03:50

be completely different. It's

1:03:50

going to depend on your

1:03:53

circumstances

1:03:54

or the challenges that you're

1:03:54

facing.

1:03:56

Of course.

1:03:57

But you work with these

1:03:57

practices and therapeutic

1:04:01

interventions,

1:04:02

whether deep tissue body work,

1:04:03

you work with a gifted healer

1:04:03

such as myself,

1:04:06

maybe you're hardcore, even go

1:04:06

on a vision quest or something,

1:04:09

or multiple vision quests, and

1:04:09

you're getting stronger,

1:04:13

you're more resilient, you're

1:04:14

capable and you just get to

1:04:14

where you have more capability

1:04:19

in terms

1:04:20

of meeting life head on with

1:04:20

whatever challenges.

1:04:23

So yeah, the biggest lesson is

1:04:23

just keep facing life.

1:04:29

It it's hard at times.

1:04:33

It's scary. It's painful and a

1:04:33

lot of things don't work out the

1:04:39

way

1:04:39

we want them to, but we just

1:04:39

keep showing up to it and

1:04:42

embrace life.

1:04:43

And it's like

1:04:44

The question is how can I work

1:04:44

with this effectively?

1:04:47

How can I use this to heal, to

1:04:47

grow,

1:04:50

to transform myself, to become a

1:04:50

better person,

1:04:54

to become more capable, to live

1:04:54

more fully?

1:04:59

And for the person listening

1:04:59

right now that may feel that

1:05:04

they

1:05:05

are keep repeating the same

1:05:05

patterns and they're tired of

1:05:08

living a certain way.

1:05:09

What would you encourage them to

1:05:09

do first?

1:05:14

Work with the practice that I

1:05:14

was just describing.

1:05:17

You know, acknowledge what's

1:05:17

happening,

1:05:20

what do you feel in response to

1:05:20

it,

1:05:22

where are you feeling it in your

1:05:22

body,

1:05:25

drop into the depths of it,

1:05:25

breathe all the way down

1:05:31

to your abdomen very slowly,

1:05:31

expanding your abdomen,

1:05:36

then rip gauge, pause, then

1:05:36

exhale fully very slowly,

1:05:42

pause again.

1:05:43

Continue the cycle.

1:05:47

Take whatever time it takes.

1:05:47

When I was going through the

1:05:50

worst of it,

1:05:50

I had all that trauma being

1:05:50

reenacted in my relationship.

1:05:54

Sometimes I'd be doing this for

1:05:54

hours on end.

1:05:56

There are times where something

1:05:56

blows up on you,

1:06:01

maybe a misunderstanding or

1:06:01

upset,

1:06:04

but you might work through it in

1:06:04

15 minutes.

1:06:06

But whatever time it takes, just

1:06:06

stay with it.

1:06:09

You're working through those

1:06:09

emotions day by day,

1:06:13

whatever challenges are

1:06:13

presenting themselves.

1:06:17

Just get in, deal with it the

1:06:17

best you can and reach out.

1:06:22

Yeah. We can't do it all on our

1:06:22

own.

1:06:27

We need help. Sometimes with all

1:06:27

the the stress and the

1:06:32

difficulty we're facing

1:06:34

and we could afford it.

1:06:34

Sometimes we need the deep

1:06:37

tissue body work because

1:06:38

all that stress is accumulating

1:06:38

in our body.

1:06:45

sometimes maybe acupuncture, you

1:06:45

know,

1:06:48

because you're going through a

1:06:48

breakup and your whole

1:06:52

biochemical

1:06:56

your biochemistry is thrown way

1:06:56

off and it helps to create that

1:06:59

stabilization,

1:07:00

Ayurvedic medicine. working with

1:07:00

a gifted healer such as myself,

1:07:04

even that much more powerful for

1:07:04

digesting the grief and loss and

1:07:09

the sadness

1:07:10

or you know, or

1:07:12

whatever challenges you're

1:07:12

facing,

1:07:14

the traumatic wounding that

1:07:14

you're carrying,

1:07:16

so you're digesting those lived

1:07:16

experiences,

1:07:18

the emotions that are attached

1:07:18

to that all and you're

1:07:23

developing that stronger

1:07:25

foundation so you're more

1:07:25

capable of really showing up and

1:07:28

needing life.

1:07:31

I love it. just the last

1:07:31

question that I have here

1:07:36

is the knowing what you know

1:07:36

now,

1:07:39

what would you say to your

1:07:39

seventeen year old self?

1:07:46

I'm not sure, you know,

1:07:49

'cause at at seventeen if a lot

1:07:49

of what I could have said to

1:07:56

from my the vantage point I am

1:07:56

now,

1:07:58

what I could say to my seventeen

1:07:58

year old self,

1:08:01

I don't know that the seventeen

1:08:01

year old me would grasp a lot of

1:08:05

it.

1:08:05

Yeah, probably

1:08:06

Makes sense. Yeah. And if that

1:08:06

makes sense,

1:08:09

it's fair.

1:08:10

my mentor Horace at one point

1:08:10

and he could

1:08:16

be very quiet, very sparing with

1:08:16

his words.

1:08:20

We could ride across country for

1:08:20

hours and hardly say a word at

1:08:24

times.

1:08:26

But at one point he's saying

1:08:31

One of these days you're gonna

1:08:31

be extraordinarily good.

1:08:34

You're gonna be very powerful,

1:08:38

very gifted at what you do,

1:08:38

you're gonna help a lot of

1:08:41

people.

1:08:41

But in the meantime, you're

1:08:41

gonna really scrape bottom.

1:08:45

Because if you don't, you will

1:08:45

never understand the suffering

1:08:50

of

1:08:50

the people you're working with.

1:08:51

I was taken aback in that

1:08:51

moment.

1:08:55

I had no idea what he meant. I I

1:08:55

felt a little shaken.

1:09:03

Hearing those words, but I

1:09:03

didn't understand,

1:09:06

I didn't comprehend, had no idea

1:09:06

what I was in for.

1:09:10

And

1:09:17

Yeah. So what I've conveyed

1:09:17

already as far as like showing

1:09:23

up to the best of your ability,

1:09:26

learning to work effectively

1:09:26

with your emotions,

1:09:29

that's gonna give you some of

1:09:29

the foundational tools and also

1:09:33

making use

1:09:34

of the most imp effective

1:09:34

therapeutic interventions.

1:09:37

Yeah. practice and

1:09:37

interventions.

1:09:41

The practices l are like the

1:09:41

meditations,

1:09:44

you could do qigong practice

1:09:44

interventions.

1:09:47

you know, like acupuncture,

1:09:50

deep tissue body work, working

1:09:50

with the gifted healers such as

1:09:53

myself,

1:09:54

me going on the vision quests,

1:09:58

these are interventions. We need

1:09:58

to combine both together.

1:10:02

and that helps us to again,

1:10:09

we're gonna face challenges

1:10:09

along the way,

1:10:11

diversity. I think a lot of

1:10:11

things are shaking up in the

1:10:15

world right now.

1:10:16

lot of things that we a lot of

1:10:16

the stability that we just took

1:10:21

for granted.

1:10:22

we could be losing a lot of

1:10:22

that.

1:10:26

May take a lot to for us to hold

1:10:26

ourselves together

1:10:31

in the coming months and years.

1:10:34

We'll we'll see how it plays

1:10:34

out.

1:10:38

And where can people find you?

1:10:43

My main website is benufana.com.

1:10:47

I post a lot of articles. There

1:10:47

are videos you can find

1:10:53

on my YouTube channel as well,

1:10:54

but you also find them in the

1:10:54

blog section of my website,

1:10:58

along with these in-depth

1:10:58

detailed articles.

1:11:00

Because I've developed this

1:11:00

whole system of meditation

1:11:05

practices,

1:11:06

you can go in also to

1:11:06

teachmetomeditate.com.

1:11:12

where I teach describe these

1:11:12

system of meditation practices.

1:11:18

So I can work with people over

1:11:18

the phone or in person,

1:11:22

depending on where you're at, if

1:11:22

we happen to be in the same

1:11:26

place or

1:11:27

if we're gonna be in the same

1:11:27

part of the world at some point,

1:11:30

because I do travel. I help with

1:11:30

a lot of people and have for for

1:11:36

a very long time who are in the

1:11:36

midst of breakups and divorce.

1:11:42

And I've I put together some

1:11:42

courses.

1:11:44

I'm still building them. I'll be

1:11:44

building these indefinitely

1:11:49

because there's just

1:11:50

so much to it. So if you're in

1:11:50

the midst of the breakup,

1:11:53

there's

1:12:00

how is it breakup first aid. If

1:12:00

you're right in the midst of the

1:12:05

crash,

1:12:05

to get you back on your feet.

1:12:05

And for the really deep dive,

1:12:10

if you've

1:12:11

Cycle through a series of really

1:12:11

abusive relationships or just

1:12:15

patterns of unrequited love and

1:12:15

just really want

1:12:20

to understand much more deeply

1:12:20

and transform yourself.

1:12:24

There's heal my heartache. And

1:12:24

you really need to get on the

1:12:28

phone

1:12:28

and talk with someone and your

1:12:28

relationship's blowing up.

1:12:33

If you're in the midst of the

1:12:33

crises,

1:12:34

there's heartache hotline dot

1:12:34

com.

1:12:39

I'm on Instagram.

1:12:41

you two

1:12:45

Very pro-democracy. If you see

1:12:45

my Facebook,

1:12:47

the right wingers may get a a

1:12:47

little offended.

1:12:50

well, I'm not gonna hide myself,

1:12:53

but you can find me on

1:12:53

Instagram,

1:12:54

you can find me on YouTube. Not

1:12:54

so much political content there.

1:13:00

Awesome. and we've covered a lot

1:13:00

of ground

1:13:07

in this conversation. Is there

1:13:07

anything that you would like to

1:13:09

bring up that

1:13:10

we did not discuss?

1:13:14

I think we covered everything

1:13:14

that I could think of,

1:13:17

you know, just day by day

1:13:17

embrace life,

1:13:21

show up, work steadily. I was

1:13:21

talking about

1:13:26

how a lot of people are crises

1:13:26

motivated to heal,

1:13:31

but

1:13:36

having trained within lineages

1:13:36

that go back hundreds,

1:13:41

if not thousands of years,

1:13:46

Healing is an ongoing process,

1:13:48

yeah. So I'd encourage you to

1:13:48

explore,

1:13:53

you know, internalize, just

1:13:59

Do what you can to familiarize

1:13:59

yourself.

1:14:04

You know, it could be in other

1:14:04

traditions or practices,

1:14:08

whether Buddhist or Hindu Vedic

1:14:08

or the system of meditation

1:14:12

practices I developed.

1:14:13

Find those interventions that

1:14:13

are most effective for you.

1:14:19

And sometimes it takes a lot of

1:14:19

exploration.

1:14:23

Be open. It does cost money, you

1:14:23

know.

1:14:25

It's you know, because

1:14:29

people are providing these inter

1:14:29

interventions,

1:14:32

they gotta survive to. they have

1:14:32

to pay rent like anyone else,

1:14:37

but but be willing to really

1:14:37

dive in and

1:14:43

and instead of just

1:14:47

you know, dabbling, which is so

1:14:47

commonplace in our culture here.

1:14:51

You know, one of the things that

1:14:51

part of my mindset,

1:14:56

which has carried me so far, was

1:14:56

as I took the steps to heal

1:15:02

my own emotional wounding, and I

1:15:02

was getting stronger,

1:15:06

I was becoming more resilient,

1:15:08

instead of operating with the

1:15:08

assumption that,

1:15:13

okay, I'm done, it's cool now.

1:15:17

I had this whole different

1:15:17

mindset of like,

1:15:20

wow, I've progressed this far,

1:15:23

I'm in a better space, I'm

1:15:23

coping that much better,

1:15:27

I'm more resourceful. How much

1:15:27

further can I go?

1:15:31

If these practices and

1:15:31

interventions have carried me

1:15:36

this far,

1:15:37

how much further can they carry

1:15:37

me?

1:15:40

And a lot of that comes from the

1:15:40

the inspiration I gained from.

1:15:45

Training with a Native American

1:15:45

doctor and from a master from

1:15:49

China

1:15:50

in these internal martial arts,

1:15:51

Xing Yiquan, Bagwa Sang, Tai

1:15:51

Chi,

1:15:54

and Qigong, and in my

1:15:54

interactions with those who've

1:15:57

attained varying degrees

1:15:59

of mastery, of whether Buddhist

1:15:59

or those in the Hindu Vedic

1:16:04

lineages,

1:16:05

you see these individuals who

1:16:05

are continually learning and

1:16:10

growing and evolving,

1:16:12

developing greater capacity.

1:16:14

So take that mindset yourself

1:16:14

that is so crucial.

1:16:17

As I said, you cannot sit still

1:16:17

for very long.

1:16:21

Either you're sliding downward

1:16:21

into stagnation or you're you're

1:16:27

healing,

1:16:28

you're growing, you're evolving.

1:16:29

So be taking steps continually.

1:16:32

Keep learning, keep growing,

1:16:32

keep evolving.

1:16:38

Awesome. I love it. Well, Ben,

1:16:40

thank you so much for coming on

1:16:40

the show.

1:16:43

I admire your resilience that

1:16:43

you've built up and I admire

1:16:46

what you're doing

1:16:47

to help people, how you're

1:16:47

helping them heal.

1:16:50

so so thank you for spending an

1:16:50

hour with me.

1:16:57

And thank you to all that are

1:16:57

listening.

1:17:01

if this show or if this episode

1:17:01

resonated with you,

1:17:05

please follow us and leave us a

1:17:05

five-star review that'd be more

1:17:09

helpful than

1:17:10

you ever know. Thanks again.

1:17:10

Until next time.